Mexican Law identical to recent Arizona Immigration Law

[Col. Crackpot]

USA Today

Activists blast Mexico's immigration law

By Chris Hawley, USA TODAY
TULTITLN, Mexico — Arizona's new law forcing local police to take a greater role in enforcing immigration law has caused a lot of criticism from Mexico, the largest single source of illegal immigrants in the United States.

But in Mexico, illegal immigrants receive terrible treatment from corrupt Mexican authorities, say people involved in the system.

And Mexico has a law that is no different from Arizona's that empowers local police to check the immigration documents of people suspected of not being in the country legally.

"There (in the United States), they'll deport you," Hector Vázquez, an illegal immigrant from Honduras, said as he rested in a makeshift camp with other migrants under a highway bridge in Tultitlán. "In Mexico they'll probably let you go, but they'll beat you up and steal everything you've got first."

Mexican authorities have harshly criticized Arizona's SB1070, a law that requires local police to check the status of persons suspected of being illegal immigrants. The law provides that a check be done in connection with another law enforcement event, such as a traffic stop, and also permits Arizona citizens to file lawsuits against local authorities for not fully enforcing immigration laws.

Mexico's Foreign Ministry said the law "violates inalienable human rights" and Democrats in Congress applauded Mexican President Felipe Calderón's criticisms of the law in a speech he gave on Capitol Hill last week.

Yet Mexico's Arizona-style law requires local police to check IDs. And Mexican police freely engage in racial profiling and routinely harass Central American migrants, say immigration activists.

"The Mexican government should probably clean up its own house before looking at someone else's," said Melissa Vertíz, spokeswoman for the Fray Matías de Córdova Human Rights Center in Tapachula, Mexico.

In one six-month period from September 2008 through February 2009, at least 9,758 migrants were kidnapped and held for ransom in Mexico — 91 of them with the direct participation of Mexican police, a report by the National Human Rights Commission said. Other migrants are routinely stopped and shaken down for bribes, it said.

A separate survey conducted during one month in 2008 at 10 migrant shelters showed Mexican authorities were behind migrant attacks in 35 of 240 cases, or 15%.

Most migrants in Mexico are Central Americans who are simply passing through on their way to the United States, human rights groups say. Others are Guatemalans who live and work along Mexico's southern border, mainly as farm workers, as maids, or in bars and restaurants.

The Central American migrants headed to the United States travel mainly on freight trains, stopping to rest and beg for food at rail crossings like the one in Tultitlán, an industrial suburb of Mexico City.

On a recent afternoon, Victor Manuel Beltrán Rodríguez of Managua, Nicaragua, trudged between the cars at a stop light, his hand outstretched.

"Can you give me a peso? I'm from Nicaragua," he said. Every 10 cars or so, a motorist would roll down the window and hand him a few coins. In a half-hour he had collected 10 pesos, about 80 U.S. cents, enough for a taco.

Beltrán Rodríguez had arrived in Mexico with 950 pesos, about $76, enough to last him to the U.S. border. But near Tierra Blanca, Veracruz, he says municipal police had detained him, driven him to a deserted road and taken his money. He had been surviving since then by begging.

Abuses by Mexican authorities have persisted even as Mexico has relaxed its rules against illegal immigrants in recent years, according to the National Human Rights Commission.

In 2008, Mexico softened the punishment for illegal immigrants, from a maximum 10 years in prison to a maximum fine of $461. Most detainees are taken to detention centers and put on buses for home.

Mexican law calls for six to 12 years of prison and up to $46,000 in fines for anyone who shelters or transports illegal immigrants. The Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the law applies only to people who do it for money.

For years, the Mexican government has allowed charity groups to openly operate migrant shelters, where travelers can rest for a few days on their journey north. The government also has a special unit of immigration agents, known as Grupo Beta, who patrol the countryside in orange pickups, helping immigrants who are in trouble.

At the same time, Article 67 of Mexico's immigration law requires that all authorities "whether federal, local or municipal" demand to see visas if approached by a foreigner and to hand over migrants to immigration authorities.

"In effect, this means that migrants who suffer crimes, including kidnapping, prefer not to report them to avoid … being detained by immigration authorities and returned to their country," the National Human Rights Commission said in a report last year.

As a result, the clause has strengthened gangs who abuse migrants, rights activists say.

"That Article 67 is an obstacle that urgently has to be removed," said Alberto Herrera, executive director of Amnesty International Mexico. "It has worsened this vicious cycle of abuse and impunity, and the same thing could happen (in Arizona)."

A bill passed by the Mexican Senate on Oct. 6 would eliminate the ID requirement in Article 67 and replace it with language saying "No attention in matters of human rights or the provision of justice shall be denied or restricted on any level (of government) to foreigners who require it, regardless of their migration status."

The Mexican House of Representatives approved a similar measure on March 16, but added a clause requiring the government to set aside funds to take care of foreigners during times of disaster. The revised bill has been stuck in the Senate's Population and Development Committee since then.

To discourage migrants from speaking out about abuse, Mexican authorities often tell detainees they will have to stay longer in detention centers if they file a complaint, Vertíz said.

A March 2007 order allows Mexican immigration agents to give "humanitarian visas" to migrants who have suffered crimes in Mexico. But the amnesty is not automatic, and most migrants don't know to ask for it, the commission said.

Hawley is Latin America correspondent for USA TODAY and The Arizona Republic

[Illuminatus Primus]

Propagandistic drivel. Not surprised that USA Today pushes this as a legit story. When in doubt, U.S. propagandists always point out the crimes of critics and "the other", esp. Official Enemies, while that has nothing to do with our crimes or hypocrisy. As always, turn a microscope on the hypocrisy and crimes of others, careful to avoid placing the same hysterical scrutiny on oneself. Who fucking cares whether Mexico is a less liberal state than the U.S.? Is that what we're aiming for, just to do somewhat better than Mexico? And like it or not the legitimate function of a nation state has always been to stand up for the rights and treatment of its nationals abroad. Surely some Americans which thought Grenada need really be invaded over the Cuban Marxist Terrorist Threat (tm) to some American medical students and the nutmeg industry won't slight Mexico this.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think they're rightly pointing out the hypocracy in Mexico crying out against human rights violations while they're engaged in massive abuses against their own illegal immigrants. It certainly seems to undermine Mexico's position if they're asking us to do things that they won't themselves do.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think they're rightly pointing out the hypocracy in Mexico crying out against human rights violations while they're engaged in massive abuses against their own illegal immigrants. It certainly seems to undermine Mexico's position if they're asking us to do things that they won't themselves do.

So what. Mexico does not claim to be THE SHINING CITY ON A HILL in regular and routine -- indeed, almost mandatory -- rhetoric by politicians across the entire spectrum, while invading nations opposite it on the globe for democracy while staying beyond the popular will or desire of the population of those nations, and extra-judicially and illiberally capturing its citizens without a process even approximating the shadow of due process and detaining them in gulags where they may be tortured or even killed without any recourse to a system to defend themselves in good faith.

You'll excuse me if I hold my breath until USA Today or any major newspaper publishes a story focusing even on groups or people with this basic realization as positive, much less a story PUSHING that narrative like this one PUSHES a narrative of Mexico-as-judgmental-hypocrites. Like it or not, it is fully within the generally awknowledged prerogatives of a nation-state to lobby for its citizens' welfare abroad, and one the U.S. has invoked to INVADE other nations. So you'll excuse me if I think this is profoundly absurd and self-important coming from an establishment newspaper.

Lastly, even if its true we all know it is being pushed in essence to refute or challenge Mexico's criticism of us. "You too!" is a logical fallacy, and poor reasoning: its called the tu quoque.

[Col. Crackpot]

I think they're rightly pointing out the hypocracy in Mexico crying out against human rights violations while they're engaged in massive abuses against their own illegal immigrants. It certainly seems to undermine Mexico's position if they're asking us to do things that they won't themselves do.

So what. Mexico does not claim to be THE SHINING CITY ON A HILL in regular and routine -- indeed, almost mandatory -- rhetoric by politicians across the entire spectrum, while invading nations opposite it on the globe for democracy while staying beyond the popular will or desire of the population of those nations, and extra-judicially and illiberally capturing its citizens without a process even approximating the shadow of due process and detaining them in gulags where they may be tortured or even killed without any recourse to a system to defend themselves in good faith.

You'll excuse me if I hold my breath until USA Today or any major newspaper publishes a story focusing even on groups or people with this basic realization as positive, much less a story PUSHING that narrative like this one PUSHES a narrative of Mexico-as-judgmental-hypocrites. Like it or not, it is fully within the generally awknowledged prerogatives of a nation-state to lobby for its citizens' welfare abroad, and one the U.S. has invoked to INVADE other nations. So you'll excuse me if I think this is profoundly absurd and self-important coming from an establishment newspaper.

Lastly, even if its true we all know it is being pushed in essence to refute or challenge Mexico's criticism of us. "You too!" is a logical fallacy, and poor reasoning: its called the tu quoque.

You're right. We should just shut up and swallow the ration of bullshit given to us by the Mexican Head of State when he addressed our congress, and pay no heed to the earth shattering hypocracy spewing from every orifice of his body.

[Phantasee]

Personally, I don't really give a shit what Mexico says or does. It's what the US says or does that matters. And right now, the US is as bad as fucking Mexico. I didn't realize NAFTA also meant free trade in stupid ideas?

[stormthebeaches]

Personally, I don't really give a shit what Mexico says or does. It's what the US says or does that matters. And right now, the US is as bad as fucking Mexico. I didn't realize NAFTA also meant free trade in stupid ideas?

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. This law has only been put into place in one state in the US.

[Night_stalker]

For how long will that remain so?

Mexico, if you're going to ride us on our racist immigration laws, try looking back at your own laws and the numerous abuses that happen in your country first.

[General Zod]

Personally, I don't really give a shit what Mexico says or does. It's what the US says or does that matters. And right now, the US is as bad as fucking Mexico. I didn't realize NAFTA also meant free trade in stupid ideas?

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. This law has only been put into place in one state in the US.

The fact that a number of other states are either supportive of or interested in establishing the same laws doesn't exactly bode well.

[KrauserKrauser]

Maybe they feel they need to take some action to deal with the wazone that our southern border is becoming?

Nah, they must just be fucking redneck teabaggers that want to require the aliens to follow EXISTING FEDERAL LAW.

[MKSheppard]

So what.

So what? Mexico can go fuck itself with a rusty barbed wire dildo. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw huge ass stones at other people. All Arizona has to do is print the text of the mexican law and put it next to their law; with a nice header saying "LAW SINCE xxx" above each law.

I'm tired of the US being the pressure relief valve for every goddamn country south of the boarder.

[Phantasee]

So what.

So what? Mexico can go fuck itself with a rusty barbed wire dildo. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw huge ass stones at other people. All Arizona has to do is print the text of the mexican law and put it next to their law; with a nice header saying "LAW SINCE xxx" above each law.

I'm tired of the US being the pressure relief valve for every goddamn country south of the boarder.

Then maybe y'all should do something about letting off some of that pressure? I don't think your war on drugs is helping any.

[Master of Ossus]

Then maybe y'all should do something about letting off some of that pressure? I don't think your war on drugs is helping any.

Presumably the pressure Shep is referring to is the pressure to migrate, which is really not that big of a driver of Mexican immigration into the US compared to the poor state of the Mexican economy in comparison with the American one.

[Phantasee]

I dunno, if my country was turning into something like a warzone due to the Army and drug cartels battling it out I'd be pretty inclined to get the fuck out of there. The fighting might also contribute to the poor state of the Mexican economy, just a bit.

[Master of Ossus]

I dunno, if my country was turning into something like a warzone due to the Army and drug cartels battling it out I'd be pretty inclined to get the fuck out of there. The fighting might also contribute to the poor state of the Mexican economy, just a bit.

It's kinda putting the cart before the horse, though, to say that the Mexican economy is bad because of the drug cartels. Really, the drug cartels are a big part of Mexico's economy because they have so little else. Also, there are "refugees" from the current conflict, but that's really only been true in the last year or two. The Mexican economy has been demonstrably worse than the American one for as long as anyone can remember, and illegal immigration has been a hot-button issue for decades in California and other border states--as early as the 1950's Californians were having riots over what they perceived as lost jobs to Mexican immigrants who were here illegally.

[Col. Crackpot]

For how long will that remain so?

Mexico, if you're going to ride us on our racist immigration laws, try looking back at your own laws and the numerous abuses that happen in your country first.

Exactly. The behaviour of the Mexican government is tantamount to the KKK bitching about someone not hiring enough white people. HELLO! You're a racist asshole, that precludes you from bitching about someone else being racist!

[Guardsman Bass]

*snip* Pointless ranting and red herring

The only problem is that nobody is claiming that the fact that Mexico has a law similar to that of Arizona on immigration is a justification of said law - they're only pointing out that the Mexican government is being hypocritical for criticizing it when they have a similar law on the books, and their enforcement of it is terrible.

I don't see why you've gotten so butt-hurt over this. The Mexicans I've spoken to on it generally hold Mexican treatment of illegal immigrants in contempt, along with American treatment of illegal immigrants.

It's kinda putting the cart before the horse, though, to say that the Mexican economy is bad because of the drug cartels. Really, the drug cartels are a big part of Mexico's economy because they have so little else.

That latter part isn't really the case. Estimates of the revenues of the drug trade in Mexico generally are in the single billions, whereas the Mexican economy is worth US$ 1.428 trillion.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The only problem is that nobody is claiming that the fact that Mexico has a law similar to that of Arizona on immigration is a justification of said law - they're only pointing out that the Mexican government is being hypocritical for criticizing it when they have a similar law on the books, and their enforcement of it is terrible.

I don't see why you've gotten so butt-hurt over this. The Mexicans I've spoken to on it generally hold Mexican treatment of illegal immigrants in contempt, along with American treatment of illegal immigrants.

I don't love Mexico. My problem is a newspaper insincerely pushing a political position when I'm sure the selfsame institution lacks such exacting standards when the target isn't politically convenient. I think that its a problem and awful that Mexico mistreats the significant immigrants it receives from Central America. The political policies of the U.S. however are much more easily modified and more our responsibility morally than those of Mexico, since a large majority of this board are Americans. We may hate what Mexico does, but it is not the affairs of our own house.

[Stark]

So what? Mexico can go fuck itself with a rusty barbed wire dildo. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw huge ass stones at other people. All Arizona has to do is print the text of the mexican law and put it next to their law; with a nice header saying "LAW SINCE xxx" above each law.

I'm tired of the US being the pressure relief valve for every goddamn country south of the boarder.

Man, I wish the US would 'fuck itself' on any issue where it is in a 'glass house'. That'd make the 6 o'clock news a lot more tolerable.

Ps, a boarder is someone who lives in your house.

[Count Chocula]

Insightful as always, Stark. I see you've upped your snark medication.

IP, Phant, the Arizona law mirrors US Federal law...which the Feds are not enforcing! Guess what, California (you know, where the LA city council is boycotting business with Arizona...I wonder if that includes the 30% of LA's electricity, and water, that comes from Arizona? But I digress) has almost identical legislation in Penal Code 833! Oh, but California gets into a high dudgeon over Arizona, Obama (who probably hasn't read the AZ bill) comments on it before a Lakers/Los Suns playoff game, Eric Holder spouts off against the bill then admits in Congressional testimony he hasn't read the Arizona legislation, and Felipe Fucking Calderon denounces the AZ bill - which mirrors existing US federal law - and the Democrats and most of Obama's cabinet give him a standing ovation! Fuck that and fuck them.

And you, IP, have your thong in a knot because USA Today, hardly a conservative paper, had the balls to actually point out Calderon's hypocrisy? Fuck off. Mexico's immigration policy as stated in the paper barely scratches the surface; for example, per the Mexican constitution, an immigrant who becomes a citizen of Mexico can not serve in the armed forces...because he wasn't born in Mexico! Imagine the impact and uproar such a law Constitutional provision would have if it were an American law. It's not a tu quoque argument to call your opponent for criticizing something they do, and you know it. Sorry the whole "illegal immigrants should be deported because they're fucking breaking the law" mindset collides with your world view. No, I'm not. Did you know that about 10% of Arizona's population is illegal aliens, or that Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the United States? Sure you did, but that doesn't matter to you, because USA Today had the Audacity of Hope to publish facts about critics of the Arizona bill.

By the way, you've done jack and shit to back up your "propagandistic drivel," "party line" assertions, Comrade. I wait with bated breath.

Phant, to your point: why should we give a flying fuck about oligarchs and carpetbaggers like Calderon fucking up their own state? Mexicans (or Guatemalans, or Hondurans) fleeing their states to live illegally in the US fuck up OUR systems, and there are levels of crime, theft, and stress on public systems like hospitals due to illegal immigrants in the US that would not exist if they weren't here. Worse, those Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, etc. with a spark of ambition come here illegally instead of staying in their own countries and improving them. Fuck that, we're not Latin America's nipple. If we sealed our southern border and Mexico had a revolution, well that might suck for them in the short term; but unless Calderon & Co. were replaced by a Marxist dictatorship or Zapatistas, any upheaval that changes Mexico's current business and social climate would be an improvement.

[Samuel]

Guess what, California (you know, where the LA city council is boycotting business with Arizona...I wonder if that includes the 30% of LA's electricity, and water, that comes from Arizona? But I digress)

No, we own the facilities. And Arizona can pry them frm our cold, dead hands.

has almost identical legislation in Penal Code 833!

The link gives "reasonable cause to believe someone has a weapon". Aside from liberal wussiness (cracking down on guns and the like), that is slightly different from "resonably suspicious".

and the Democrats and most of Obama's cabinet give him a standing ovation! Fuck that and fuck them.

Arizona is solid Republican. As such democrats have no reason to even pretend to be fair.

had the balls to actually point out Calderon's hypocrisy?

If he is saying Mexico is offended by how we are treating Mexicans (and not immigrants in general) it isn't hypocricy- he is defending the interests of his people.

Mexico's immigration policy as stated in the paper barely scratches the surface; for example, per the Mexican constitution, an immigrant who becomes a citizen of Mexico can not serve in the armed forces...because he wasn't born in Mexico! Imagine the impact and uproar such a law Constitutional provision would have if it were an American law.

Yes, Mexicos intense and crushing need for manpower to hold its massive colonial army together really is offensive to immigrants who can't join. Why, even ignoring that the repeated times the military has acted kingmaker and appointed the head of state... oh wait, no, the military isn't remotely as important to Mexico as it is to the US. And the countries that they get their immigrants from are the ones who they are their neighbors which given their lack of power projection are the ones they are most likely to deploy troops to.

that Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the United States?

Illegal immigrants are entering Arizona in order to kidnap people I was under the impression that the immigrants we get, while more crime prone, lack many of the skills needed to be kidnappers. Like cars, weapons, homes, the ability to speak English, etc. You know, things aside from "clothes on your back".

By the way, you've done jack and shit to back up your "propagandistic drivel," "party line" assertions, Comrade. I wait with bated breath.

As a libertarian socialist I'm guessing it is the complete and utter lack of attention on the demand side of the equation. These activities appear to be designed to generate fear in the illegal immigrant community and drum up support with the conservative base. However, I doubt they will eliminate all illegals- more likely they will make it easier to rip them off and keep them divided in order to provide a pool to provide labor control to be played of the workers in the state.

I can write this up in more Marxist terms if you like.

and there are levels of crime, theft, and stress on public systems like hospitals due to illegal immigrants in the US that would not exist if they weren't here.

True. They should have the decency to die in their own hovels! It isn't like we have an obligation to take care of other human beings- if they were born outside our borders they don't count. Of course we can justify this on the grounds of life boat ethics... what? They are reducing their growth rate? Er... their different from us! Yeah, that is the ticket.

Worse, those Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, etc. with a spark of ambition come here illegally instead of staying in their own countries and improving them.

Truly it is terrible for intelligent people to come to the United States in order to found companies and make money. We would be better off if they had no access to our financial system (so they couldn't get loans), police system (so their investments are safe and it is worth planning long term), educational and medical system (so they have to provide those to the workers themselves, raising costs and reducing competitiveness) and political system (so they have to worry about their property being nationalized).

Come on man, where is your enthusiam for capitalism? Autocraky is for Albanians and North Koreans- real states get the best talent they can from other nations, pay them better and take care of their kids to get their loyalty and use the continual growth to make sure everyone has a stake in the system. You know, the American Way of Life.

If we sealed our southern border and Mexico had a revolution, well that might suck for them in the short term; but unless Calderon & Co. were replaced by a Marxist dictatorship or Zapatistas, any upheaval that changes Mexico's current business and social climate would be an improvement.

Yeah, it isn't like revolutions have a tendancy to devestate countries, kill large numbers of people and set back progress by decades, am I right?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Illegal immigrants are entering Arizona in order to kidnap people I was under the impression that the immigrants we get, while more crime prone, lack many of the skills needed to be kidnappers. Like cars, weapons, homes, the ability to speak English, etc. You know, things aside from "clothes on your back".

Phoenix being the kidnapping capital of North America (and by some arguments the world) isn't in dispute, and is a direct result of the rise of nacro-trafficking, most of which is conducted by illegals.

Learn more about your world

[Master of Ossus]

has almost identical legislation in Penal Code 833!

The link gives "reasonable cause to believe someone has a weapon". Aside from liberal wussiness (cracking down on guns and the like), that is slightly different from "resonably suspicious".

No it's not. Not unless SCOTUS intended to create an entirely new, theretofore unknown, and totally unexplicated standard of review for evidence when it created the "reasonable suspicion" standard. It's only different in that it explicates a particular class of conduct that the police have to have reasonable suspicion in investigating.

[Count Chocula]

Samuel, I'm ignoring most of your emotional claptrap reply, but this one got my attention:

Come on man, where is your enthusiam for capitalism? Autocraky is for Albanians and North Koreans- real states get the best talent they can from other nations, pay them better and take care of their kids to get their loyalty and use the continual growth to make sure everyone has a stake in the system. You know, the American Way of Life.

Me bucko, chap, old bean: violating America's laws to come to America is not "the American Way of Life." Hiding in the cuture's shadows, finding Spanish-only enclaves and employers, hanging out in Home Depot parking lots and pissing in the bushes for a $5 per hour cash job is not "the American Way of Life," which in itself is a statement void of any semantic content. Much like the rest of your post. Protip: "the best talent...from other nations" does NOT include day laborers, strawberry pickers, maids, MS-13 members, or drug runners. Give me ONE example of an illegal alien (who was not amestied) who has accomplished something noteworthy, like owning a business. Or holding public office. Or becoming a minor celebrity. The most prominent one I can recall is President Obama's aunt, who defied 2 or 3 deportation orders and still managed to qualify for public housing in Boston. Of course - surprise, surprise! - now she's going to become a hurf-durf American. Yay nepotism!

Enforcing immigration laws does NOT make America, or Arizona, or California, an autokraky autocracy. False analogy. America has benefitted TREMENDOUSLY from legal immigrants. People like Nikola Tesla. Albert Einstein. Even Werner von Braun. Your analogy of worldwide cherry-picking is accurate, but you missed one key point - the benefits accrue to the nation as a whole and to those immigrants when they become American citizens, not illegal aliens. Surely you aren't that myopic...you aren't a Berkeley student, are you?

[Samuel]

Illegal immigrants are entering Arizona in order to kidnap people I was under the impression that the immigrants we get, while more crime prone, lack many of the skills needed to be kidnappers. Like cars, weapons, homes, the ability to speak English, etc. You know, things aside from "clothes on your back".

Phoenix being the kidnapping capital of North America (and by some arguments the world) isn't in dispute, and is a direct result of the rise of nacro-trafficking, most of which is conducted by illegals.

Learn more about your world

Ah, the way it was stated made it sound like they were attacking citizens. Wouldn't stepping up attempts to track down illegals make the problem worse because they can't go to the police making kidnapping even more profitable?

Me bucko, chap, old bean: violating America's laws to come to America is not "the American Way of Life."

Technically we had the lead up and the Rvolutionary War, the American civil war and our treaties with the natives (according to the constitution they constitute part of the law of the land) that sort of make a lie out of that statement. Of course that is disingenuous- our way of life isn't about breaking the law, but making money with violating the law one of the ways to do so.

Hiding in the cuture's shadows, finding Spanish-only enclaves and employers, hanging out in Home Depot parking lots and pissing in the bushes for a $5 per hour cash job is not "the American Way of Life,"

You do realize every single immigrant community has done this?

"the American Way of Life," which in itself is a statement void of any semantic content.

The American Way of Life is superheated capitalism to drive large scale growth to keep social divisions in check.

Protip: "the best talent...from other nations" does NOT include day laborers, strawberry pickers, maids, MS-13 members, or drug runners.

So what did you mean when you claimed we were causing a brain drain on other countries? Did you fear Mexico was going to suffer from a crippling strawberry shortage? Or are you retracking the "all the smart people come to the US"?

Give me ONE example of an illegal alien (who was not amestied) who has accomplished something noteworthy, like owning a business. Or holding public office. Or becoming a minor celebrity.

Since we try to deport them I don't see how I can give an example. However, they have children who count as citizens. Would that be acceptable?

Enforcing immigration laws does NOT make America, or Arizona, or California, an autocracy.

No, but it does stop the free flow of labor which is needed for achieving optimal results from a free market. It takes advantage of the fact that you have existing infrastructure in the United States that isn't available in other countries and by lowering the cost of labor you can make it profitable for certain businesses to operate here. Why do you hate capitalism?

False analogy. America has benefitted TREMENDOUSLY from legal immigrants. People like Nikola Tesla. Albert Einstein. Even Werner von Braun.

Tesla entered the US in 1891 the same year we passed the Immigration Act. I don't think he had to worry about immigration law. As for the other 2 we got Einstein because he had to flee Germany and von Braun because we captured him. They are hardly normal cases.

the benefits accrue to the nation as a whole and to those immigrants when they become American citizens, not illegal aliens.

Are you seriously claiming that the labor of immigrants doesn't count until they earn citizenship?

Surely you aren't that myopic...you aren't a Berkeley student, are you?

I've been attacking the restrictions on immigration on the grounds that it messes with the free market which my countrymen claim to love. And no, I was accepted, but decided to go to a different school Ironically my initials are SDS which is the same as one of Berkley's more famous organizations.