Is PC gaming alive or dead?

[Stark]

PROTIP: games that support k/m allow remapping. Of course games that aren't designed for keyboards don't support them well. Is that your point?

It's pretty sad you base your entire entry into a thread about sales, prominence, markets etc on OMG TEH CONTROLLZ SUX and making ludicrous statements like 'everyone who plays FPS hates controllers'. Indeed, in my experience in the last year or so even the most PC-proud people have given up on this hobby horse because it's just -easier- to play games on console. Did I miss anything by playing MW2 on console? Of course not.

[Oskuro]

I agree with Stark that the UI is the primary factor here, after all, graphic technology has been getting diminishing returns for a while now, and I get the feeling that players are not so easily swayed by polycounts anymore.


As for the future of PC gaming, I think the main reason it will never die is availability. A PC is a multi-purpose tool that almost every household is interested in adquiring, it will not dissapear if the gaming industry moves to consoles, so there'll always be a chance for game development.

Also, since consoles are the property of specific companies, there's always the chance of them failing as a product and dissapearing (as has happened to many console systems already). If a streak of bad luck hits the console market, surviving developers will probably revert back to the PC to minimize risk to their investments, or in other words, they'll change platforms, just as they are doing now, if it suits them. It really isn't about the platform itself, but its profitability.

Oskuro, if they put a trackball in place of right stick, once people got used to it it'd be fine for most mouse roles. I don't think there's much of a point, though.

Yeah, I suggested that once, if used for camera controls, losing one of the analog sticks would be acceptable, but if games are designed with gamepads in mind, it doesn't matter much.

Incidentally, I can tell if a game is a console port just because of how it controls, you really notice the difference (Example: Compare the control scheme on the PC version of GTA: Vice City and GTA: San Andreas. And I guess Vice City is a port too, but they reworked the controls properly), wich, in essence, means that a control scheme is made to work from the game's design. Mouse control will suck if the game is not properly tuned (For example, even though mouse control made headshots easier, I found myself wanting to use a controller when playing Gears on the PC, but fuck Microsoft for not making the game compatible with non-Xbox controllers).

[Medic]

PROTIP: games that support k/m allow remapping. Of course games that aren't designed for keyboards don't support them well. Is that your point?

Well is it just me or is that list a vanishing minority? UT on PS3... and? (note, I'm just confining my comments to FPS)

It's pretty sad you base your entire entry into a thread about sales, prominence, markets etc on OMG TEH CONTROLLZ SUX and making ludicrous statements like 'everyone who plays FPS hates controllers'. Indeed, in my experience in the last year or so even the most PC-proud people have given up on this hobby horse because it's just -easier- to play games on console. Did I miss anything by playing MW2 on console? Of course not.

I'm not the most active user on this board or this sub-forum so I suppose I shouldn't count on my participation in particular CoD-related threads as substantive proof that I'm a PC gamer. Nevertheless, you're strawmanning me pretty transparently: I'm relating solely the difficulty in using controllers as a switch from PC gaming. I don't care if console fans think the controller is just fine - for them, it is - but as an alternative to a mouse for former PC users, it's a bit more than useless and very frustrating. In my opinion, shitty.

In my opinion, all FPS gamers hate controllers? Well in your opinion that's my opinion, but it's really only PC gamers find them awkward. Or at least, any PC FPS gamer who was good enough that the switch to a controller meant throwing away a huge investment in skill. There's plenty of ho-hum PC gamers who, either due to shitty hardware or just not a lot of skill, find the console a leveler playing field, and it is.

So yeah, I pummel noobs, have l33t skills, don't want to change, am an indictment of the PC communities' insular attitude towards newcomers, etc. etc. I don't really believe all that but I figure I'd just put those words in my post before you did, save us both some time.

[Medic]

PROTIP: games that support k/m allow remapping. Of course games that aren't designed for keyboards don't support them well. Is that your point?

Well is it just me or is that list a vanishing minority? UT on PS3... and? (note, I'm just confining my comments to FPS, I really have no idea what RTS on consoles play like and don't care)

It's pretty sad you base your entire entry into a thread about sales, prominence, markets etc on OMG TEH CONTROLLZ SUX and making ludicrous statements like 'everyone who plays FPS hates controllers'. Indeed, in my experience in the last year or so even the most PC-proud people have given up on this hobby horse because it's just -easier- to play games on console. Did I miss anything by playing MW2 on console? Of course not.

I'm not the most active user on this board or this sub-forum so I suppose I shouldn't count on my participation in particular CoD-related threads as substantive proof that I'm a PC gamer. Nevertheless, you're strawmanning me pretty transparently: I'm relating solely the difficulty in using controllers as a switch from PC gaming. I don't care if console fans think the controller is just fine - for them, it is - but as an alternative to a mouse for former PC users, it's a bit more than useless and very frustrating. In my opinion, shitty.

In my opinion, all FPS gamers hate controllers? Well in your opinion that's my opinion, but it's really only PC gamers find them awkward. Or at least, any PC FPS gamer who was good enough that the switch to a controller meant throwing away a huge investment in skill. There's plenty of ho-hum PC gamers who, either due to shitty hardware or just not a lot of skill, find the console a leveler playing field, and it is. Of course there's other reasons than that.

So yeah, I pummel noobs, have l33t skills, don't want to change, am an indictment of the PC communities' insular attitude towards newcomers, etc. etc. I don't really believe all that but I figure I'd just put those words in my post before you did, save us both some time.

(of course, the original point was why don't MS / Sony just co-opt the pc crowd by allowing universal k/m support? It's a nice idea but unfortunately unrelated to your derisive soapbox. Please, continue.)

[Uraniun235]

I'll admit I don't have a modern console and am terribly clumsy with my thumbs because I've spent barely any time with a thumbstick compared to my time with a mouse, and don't really want to suffer a learning period of adjusting to the thumbstick, but (based on this and several other factors) I also admit that my tastes are not at all representative of the market.

[General Zod]

I think this whole "mouse/keyboard vs controller" argument is ridiculous. I prefer controllers because it means I don't have to worry about 80 billion slightly different keyboard layouts that various game devs might want to force on me. Fewer weird key combinations to memorize means less effort I have to put in to just jumping into the game, and the whole notion that switching detracts from someone's "skill" seems entirely specious.

[TheFeniX]

I think this whole "mouse/keyboard vs controller" argument is ridiculous. I prefer controllers because it means I don't have to worry about 80 billion slightly different keyboard layouts that various game devs might want to force on me. Fewer weird key combinations to memorize means less effort I have to put in to just jumping into the game, and the whole notion that switching detracts from someone's "skill" seems entirely specious.

That's not an issue with console FPSs?

Let's look at reloading a gun in an FPS or just shooter in general:
Left 4 Dead: B
Halo 3 and GoW: RB (I think, it's been a while)
CoD: X
Lost Planet 2: click the right thumb stick.

I can't think of a single PC game that wasn't shovel-ware that doesn't give me access to a single-key remapping option or just gives me a console so I can do it manually. Meanwhile, AAA console titles give me a few presets and send me on my way. I can rig any PC shooter I play to my preference. With a console, I'm stuck with what the dev thinks is good enough and if I don't like it, I can go fuck myself. Seriously, saying PC devs force a control scheme on you?

[General Zod]

That's not an issue with console FPSs?

Let's look at reloading a gun in an FPS or just shooter in general:
Left 4 Dead: B
Halo 3 and GoW: RB (I think, it's been a while)
CoD: X
Lost Planet 2: click the right thumb stick.

I can't think of a single PC game that wasn't shovel-ware that doesn't give me access to a single-key remapping option or just gives me a console so I can do it manually. Meanwhile, AAA console titles give me a few presets and send me on my way. I can rig any PC shooter I play to my preference. With a console, I'm stuck with what the dev thinks is good enough and if I don't like it, I can go fuck myself. Seriously, saying PC devs force a control scheme on you?

You're missing the point, I'm not talking "console vs PC" here, I can use a controller on any fps pc title for any game that's not shit. With keyboards I have 50 billion combinations to worry about and it's annoying to remap them every time to my preference. With controllers there's only a few variables I have to worry about; you simply don't need that many keys to play an fps.

[TheFeniX]

You're missing the point, I'm not talking "console vs PC" here, I can use a controller on any fps pc title for any game that's not shit. With keyboards I have 50 billion combinations to worry about and it's annoying to remap them every time to my preference. With controllers there's only a few variables I have to worry about; you simply don't need that many keys to play an fps.

Then I'm still missing it. The controller isn't the limiting factor. By combining buttons and/or using "click vs hold" you could cram a shitload of commands into a 360/PS3 controller. More than most PC FPSs would ever need. If you were going to use the 360 controller on a PC FPS that doesn't directly support it, then you're doing a shit-load of remapping anyways. But the 360 controller is gaining a lot of acceptance in PC games. I'm pretty sure both Left 4 dead and Star Trek online support it directly.

As for remapping controls being annoying, not having the ability to use a control scheme I prefer is a much worse fate than being inconvenienced with the idea of customization. That was my main point: Console devs (forced to use a single interface) don't include actual customizations options when it's needed more for console because you can't do anything the dev doesn't program for.

Contrast to the NS2 engine test released with no ability to invert the mouse in the GUI. So, you just modify the configs manually.

[General Zod]

As for remapping controls being annoying, not having the ability to use a control scheme I prefer is a much worse fate than being inconvenienced with the idea of customization. That was my main point: Console devs (forced to use a single interface) don't include actual customizations options when it's needed more for console because you can't do anything the dev doesn't program for.

Completely irrelevant to my point, the vast majority of PC fps games that support controllers support total controller remapping as well, once again I'm not talking console vs. pc. But PC devs don't seem to understand the idea of minimalism and like to cram in as many weird and useless control schemes as they can, forcing me to remap a shitton of keys when fewer would work better. I won't even touch an fps on the PC unless it offers controller support simply because then I know the layout will be somewhat sensible.

[TheFeniX]

Completely irrelevant to my point, the vast majority of PC fps games that support controllers support total controller remapping as well, once again I'm not talking console vs. pc. But PC devs don't seem to understand the idea of minimalism and like to cram in as many weird and useless control schemes as they can, forcing me to remap a shitton of keys when fewer would work better. I won't even touch an fps on the PC unless it offers controller support simply because then I know the layout will be somewhat sensible.

I'd have to have an example to understand what you're talking about. Games like Unreal Tournament tend to suffer from over-the-top design like dozens of weapons, dodges, and vehicles. But those types of games are falling out of favor everywhere. Mainstream games today like Modern Warfare are going to play almost identical on both versions. Choosing a keyboard/mouse or controller is irrelevant because even if the keyboard has too many keys, it doesn't matter because you won't be using them all anyways.

And I don't understand what you mean by "scheme." Are you talking about how they're setup by default, or something like how source has access to commands like "drop items" and "lastinv?" Devs on both sides of the fence are all for this shit. FEAR and Ghost Recon are prime examples. The lean option in FEAR was worthless and GR was frustrating because nothing really worked right. But I'm really at a loss to think of something on the PC side that requires a lot of remapping because the control scheme is pretty much broken by default.

[General Zod]

And I don't understand what you mean by "scheme." Are you talking about how they're setup by default, or something like how source has access to commands like "drop items" and "lastinv?" Devs on both sides of the fence are all for this shit. FEAR and Ghost Recon are prime examples. The lean option in FEAR was worthless and GR was frustrating because nothing really worked right. But I'm really at a loss to think of something on the PC side that requires a lot of remapping because the control scheme is pretty much broken by default.

Most developers use wasd for their directional keys as part of their default key use. I prefer esdf because it means I don't have to take my fingers off the homerow. As a result I have to remap almost everything because I don't like wasd since esdf are almost always used for something else, and that remapping takes forever because they include so many useless functions.

[Havok]

They still make games for PC?

I thought they stopped doing that after Star Flight.

[Medic]

Eh, layout can be a pain. On the other hand, if you've played one FPS you like, you can emulate it's controls as closely as possible on another.

the whole notion that switching detracts from someone's "skill" seems entirely specious.

Keyboard buttons, buttons on a controller -- doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Finger, push, result.

There's a world of difference between an analogue stick and a mouse, though. Maybe it takes a laser mouse to notice or appreciate but the control stick is an absolute deal killer. Hell, I would like to make the switch to console, I prefer multiplayer and I'm obliged to go with the crowd but it's frustrating NOT being able to do things on a controller I do with ease on a mouse.

Hitting 2 targets across >90* of viewing space with a shotgun is doable on a mouse in less than a second... it takes skill to get 2 hits, moreso to get 2 kills, but any idiot can whip his POV around and put shots in 2 opposite directions and TRY. Hell, I've seen 2 shots at 180* (literally front, then back) in probably 1/3 of a second (the shots were as fast as the semi-auto would cycle), both kills (M1014) ... that guy was good but it's demonstrative of what can be done. That's technically impossible on a controller. I'm frankly amazed I'm having to describe the kinematics of this.

So hardly "specious."

For the record the basis for my statements have been playing CoD4 alternately on my spring-2006-gaming laptop (can you say old?) and CoD4 on the x360 and a 40" TV. I mostly used a 22" monitor and played the PC version in a window cause fuck if it could push more than 1280x1024 with almost no good graphical settings on. The Xbox setup had so many visual advantages it was hard not to say no (1080p or 1024x768 with comparable settings?)... but not that hard to say, "fuck this." The fact that I'm comparing the same game on 2 systems and 3 setups (PC keyboard mouse, xbox controller and xbox keyboard / mouse) means I'm not just talking out of the side of my mouth.

(let me stress for the last time this caveat: the UI implementations make FPS on console very playable -- I think back to the Goldeneye days for example and cringe. That doesn't mean they're as useful as a mouse if you got use to that, OR fun)

[TheFeniX]

Most developers use wasd for their directional keys as part of their default key use. I prefer esdf because it means I don't have to take my fingers off the homerow. As a result I have to remap almost everything because I don't like wasd since esdf are almost always used for something else.

Oh, you're one of those guys, huh? I can see how that would be annoying. WASD is pretty much the standard, but I have seen some games that will let you select ESDF under a scheme setting, rather than manually remapping them. But is that really fair to blame PC devs for catering to the most popular control scheme? And at least you're certain a bit of inconvenience will result in you playing the game the way you want to. Your annoyance is a one time problem per game. I get annoyed every time I load up Lost Planet 2. Or every time I load up any console game, check the control settings, and see 2-3 control schemes that kind of reflect what I want, but not exactly.

Anyway, we could start a whole other argument on the merits of ESDF and WASD. Just don't let those damned arrow key users in on it.

[General Zod]

Most developers use wasd for their directional keys as part of their default key use. I prefer esdf because it means I don't have to take my fingers off the homerow. As a result I have to remap almost everything because I don't like wasd since esdf are almost always used for something else.

Oh, you're one of those guys, huh? I can see how that would be annoying. WASD is pretty much the standard, but I have seen some games that will let you select ESDF under a scheme setting, rather than manually remapping them. But is that really fair to blame PC devs for catering to the most popular control scheme? And at least you're certain a bit of inconvenience will result in you playing the game the way you want to. Your annoyance is a one time problem per game. I get annoyed every time I load up Lost Planet 2. Or every time I load up any console game, check the control settings, and see 2-3 control schemes that kind of reflect what I want, but not exactly.

Anyway, we could start a whole other argument on the merits of ESDF and WASD. Just don't let those damned arrow key users in on it.

Er, again, I'm not talking about console games, how many times do I have to repeat myself? The vast majority of PC game that supports a controller will allow individual button remapping, so that point is moot. The point is that PC developers don't seem to grasp the concept of "minimalism" with keyboard schemes.

[General Zod]

There's a world of difference between an analogue stick and a mouse, though. Maybe it takes a laser mouse to notice or appreciate but the control stick is an absolute deal killer. Hell, I would like to make the switch to console, I prefer multiplayer and I'm obliged to go with the crowd but it's frustrating NOT being able to do things on a controller I do with ease on a mouse.

Hitting 2 targets across >90* of viewing space with a shotgun is doable on a mouse in less than a second... it takes skill to get 2 hits, moreso to get 2 kills, but any idiot can whip his POV around and put shots in 2 opposite directions and TRY. Hell, I've seen 2 shots at 180* (literally front, then back) in probably 1/3 of a second (the shots were as fast as the semi-auto would cycle), both kills (M1014) ... that guy was good but it's demonstrative of what can be done. That's technically impossible on a controller. I'm frankly amazed I'm having to describe the kinematics of this.

That sounds more like a matter of sensitivity than any particular input method choice. Most games will let you adjust the sensitivity on the sticks. (Also, lol laser mouse)

For the record the basis for my statements have been playing CoD4 alternately on my spring-2006-gaming laptop (can you say old?) and CoD4 on the x360 and a 40" TV. I mostly used a 22" monitor and played the PC version in a window cause fuck if it could push more than 1280x1024 with almost no good graphical settings on. The Xbox setup had so many visual advantages it was hard not to say no (1080p or 1024x768 with comparable settings?)... but not that hard to say, "fuck this." The fact that I'm comparing the same game on 2 systems and 3 setups (PC keyboard mouse, xbox controller and xbox keyboard / mouse) means I'm not just talking out of the side of my mouth.

Who cares? I'm talking controller vs keyboard and mouse, not console vs pc. You can use controllers on most pc games just fine.

[Medic]

YEAH, YOU CAN jack the sensitivity all the way up. Problem is this barely matches what a mouse can achieve on typical medium sensitivity settings, it's nowhere near as accurate and it throws the baby out with the bathwater by making subtler aiming movements nearly impossible. (oh, the weight of your thumb was resting just so on the stick? LUUURCH) A decent mouse suffers no such compromises and doesn't automatically dictate your playstyle from "SMG rusher" to "sniper" based on a setting alone. (although more mouses are providing adjustable sensitivity, the middle-of-the-road setting is all that's needed. Particular players ONLY PLAY one playstyle though and they tend to be the ones to use the extremes of mouse DPI's)

Lastly, the controller sticks are subject to downright capricious wear. Oh sure, once you've played so many hours on it, you 'know' it but they're not swiss army knives. Some are squishy, some are loose, some give way more to the right... more to the left, etc. That's just annoying.

Maybe I need to restate this more forcefully. I've got 2 dozen hours MP play on the X360 and ... I can't remember but over a month in days of CoD4 playing time. I'm not iffing and supposing or guessing or handwaving these problems away. I suffered through them - this was my MP game of choice once the CoD:UO community finally died in a few months after CoD4's release.

[Stark]

So what? Not only is hurf-durfing over MOUZ IS BETTA totally irrelevant to the changes in the market, since the groups are separated the conflict never even arises. The idea that hardcore FPS 'serious gamers' prefer mice because of their obvious superiority is meaningless.

Beta was better too, remember?

[Medic]

It was tangentially relevant to Feil's point, that there's *just that much more* market for the console to usurp, if they really wanted to.

And since when on SDN do we let blatant falsehoods and sleep dogs lie?

[VF5SS]

I think the console resurgence definitely helped FPS games refocus their efforts on the core principle of "shooting other dudes" rather than letting all skills be determined by how well you can move a mouse pointer. For me, a fair degree of auto-aim enables more fun that fruitlessly shooting my magnum at a Combine because the cursor was a few pixels to the left of his head.

[Stark]

Turns out a large market of normal people want to be able to play as a dead-eye shot superspy ultimate warrior without ACTUALLY needing to be a dead-eye shot? Even in games like Alan Wake the lower difficulties have quite strong aim-snap.

[Medic]

For what it's worth on the OP, I agree with the ~consensus that PC gaming's decidedly lost it's pre-eminent status. (a status I never really enjoyed, anyway. My first computer capable of pushing CoD1 was June 2005) And as an FPS gamer, I'm happy the genre is absolutely alive.

PC FPS gaming though is only completely dead if Activision's strategy with MW2 continued into perpetuity. It looks like it won't since Treyarch's CoD Black Ops will support dedicated servers.


As for RTS's, nominally SC2 counts as 'life' for the PC but I'm sure that just looks like polished shit to a lot of people, AND they're selling it 3 times. Probably it's a harbinger of the direction of the PC market -- ever more elaborate systems of control and pricing and entry points to combat the ever-present pirating of games.
In that sense the PC community has brought the ton of bricks upon their own heads, but that's not really fair, since it's just a sizable number of /b/ chan tards, 'crackers' (so I don't offend hackers) and recluse, unemployed cheapskates.

That's only proof positive though the Next Big Thing was and will remain always bitchslapping over IP.

[Stark]

Supreme Commander 2 is hardly the only RTS on console; and it's not anyone's fault but the designers it sucks so bad. I wish PC RTS would take RTS interface ideas (especially wheel menus, which would be even better with a mouse) to be honest.

If Natal etc doesn't turn out to be a giant waste it'll all be moot, of course.

[The Yosemite Bear]

simultaneosly both, until it's directly observed and the hyperwave collapses. yeah, they are mostly the same shit repackaged, but I don't see enough people going out for just consols to kill it anytime soon.