Dune verse combat makes no sense

[JGregory32]

Getting back to the weapons issue for a moment. Somebody pointed out that we don't have a good idea of what atomic are other than bombs. Wasn't the climax of the second book built around the detonation of a nuclear device? While the book called it a "Stone-Burner" bomb the after effects seem more inline with the detonation of a small scale nuclear device.

Also I agree that sending the blind out into the deserts makes absolutely no sense. Aside from humanitarian grounds blind people can still contribute to the society at large through other means. Teaching, rope making, lore keeping, and even minor metal crafting are all possible occupations. It just does not make sense.

On a side note I seem to remember in one of the weirder moments of the books it was revealed that the Freemen had been planet hopping for a long time to escape some kind of enemy before they came of Dune. Does anybody know anything more about that backstory?

[Thanas]

One other thing that I've overlooked that could explain Fremen success in their jihad is that their leader is prescient as well as a human computer. It's surprising that the Fremen ever took heavy casualties with Paul running the show.

Mentats are not really that uncommon and throughout the book, Paul's prescience is not really a game-winner, it just allows him to stay alive.

When it comes to the Jihad, I never got the idea that the Fremen invaded all the planets of the Imperium. They sterilized ninety worlds and "demoralized" five hundred others, with a death toll of ninety-one billion all round. This suggests that the Fremen only invaded a relatively small percentage of worlds (the Imperium had over 13,000 planets immediately post-Butlerian Jihad, and by the post-Scattering era, the "Old Empire" had in the ballpark of a million planets. Quite the wide range!) compared to the Imperium as a whole, or at least devastated a tiny percentage only. Granted, we still run into the problem of the Fremen still lacking in numbers (though much of their kill ratio probably came from the sterilizations and other orbital bombardment), but it becomes less severe.

Still, there are 10 million Fremen in total. Even if we assume one sixth of these take part in a crusade (which would mean that literally every adult male would be fighting and the entire fremen society would be running by children and women) that still only gives an active strength of ~1.6 million. And this also assumes the extermination campaigns run by the Sardaukar were completely ineffective.

That is not enough for invading 500 planets, even assuming they only take casualties equivalent to one legion per planet. If they only have 10 million Fremen, even the loss of one million of them would mean their society would most likely collapse.

So IMO the numbers make even less sense, especially since we know the Fremen did not really nuke planets from orbit, as evidence in Messiah of Dune when the old Fremen soldier talks about a heavy battle.

[Bakustra]

Eh? We know from Paul's statement that they sterilized ninety worlds, so they did nuke planets from orbit. Farok's statement, though, actually makes matters worse. The Jihad forces were apparently comprised mostly of volunteers. However, the ten million estimate doesn't take into account the south polar region, which the Fremen do inhabit and which appears to be more heavily populated than the north, but it still at best could only increase Fremen numbers by an order of magnitude at the outside. Even then, you still have the Fremen conducting a ludicrous set of campaigns in the Jihad. Oh Herbert...

[Thanas]

Eh? We know from Paul's statement that they sterilized ninety worlds, so they did nuke planets from orbit.

I was talking about the 500 planets they "demoralized". Which reads to me like "storm the place, rape/enslave the populace and leave".

Farok's statement, though, actually makes matters worse. The Jihad forces were apparently comprised mostly of volunteers. However, the ten million estimate doesn't take into account the south polar region, which the Fremen do inhabit and which appears to be more heavily populated than the north, but it still at best could only increase Fremen numbers by an order of magnitude at the outside. Even then, you still have the Fremen conducting a ludicrous set of campaigns in the Jihad. Oh Herbert...

Even if you assume the southern polar region to have the same or double the population, you at best still only get 5 million men total (and this assumes the Fremen will not have more than two-four children per family, which quite frankly is not logical given what we know about tribal cultures). Even if we assume half of them volunteer (which is a pretty high number, IMO and almost certainly too high), that still only gives us 2-3 million men.

[Kuroji]

I figure they probably went world-to-world, chose their battles since they had the spacing guild by the balls, and any planet that mustered enough resistance that it looked like it could do something got BDZed.

Don't forget that Paul could see the future (at least up until Leto was born). He knew where to send them, who to send, how many to send, and what orders to have issued to them, to ensure victory.

[AMT]

One thing that seems to not be considered re: Freman campaigns in the Jihad...

Paul was able to use the mysticism of his position to help establish a religion, especially with the powers he possessed. Who said Freman were the only soldiers in his Jihad? Sure, the Freman and Feydakin especially would be used as needed, but IIRC Paul also used converts to the religion as soldiers as well, mentioned in Heretics of Dune.

[Thanas]

One thing that seems to not be considered re: Freman campaigns in the Jihad...

Paul was able to use the mysticism of his position to help establish a religion, especially with the powers he possessed. Who said Freman were the only soldiers in his Jihad? Sure, the Freman and Feydakin especially would be used as needed, but IIRC Paul also used converts to the religion as soldiers as well, mentioned in Heretics of Dune.

All conversations in Messiah of Dune, especially when the planning of conducting such a campaign is spelled out, only mention Fremen legions iirc. So if he used converts, these most likely would not have been used in the Jihad themselves, but rather to hold territory.

[AMT]

One thing that seems to not be considered re: Freman campaigns in the Jihad...

Paul was able to use the mysticism of his position to help establish a religion, especially with the powers he possessed. Who said Freman were the only soldiers in his Jihad? Sure, the Freman and Feydakin especially would be used as needed, but IIRC Paul also used converts to the religion as soldiers as well, mentioned in Heretics of Dune.

All conversations in Messiah of Dune, especially when the planning of conducting such a campaign is spelled out, only mention Fremen legions iirc. So if he used converts, these most likely would not have been used in the Jihad themselves, but rather to hold territory.

That was the sense I got from it. If he used local forces whenever possible to hold a planet down, then a 20 million army with full strategic mobility that's not above glassing planets that provide too much resistance could concievably take the key worlds. While nobles may have multi-planet resources it doesn't help if they can't be moved.

I always saw the Jihad itself as a series of strategic strikes against those who didn't fall in line. And it's not as if the nobility would go into full revolt. To them, Paul would seem to be just another Emperor, using Freman rather than Saudaukar. As long as their profits and their power remained (and there was a Landsraad for a time after the Jihad), then there would be no reason for them to not support this new Emperor (who has the full backing of the Guild, publically), and thus their forces could be added to the Order of Battle.

[Thanas]

That was the sense I got from it. If he used local forces whenever possible to hold a planet down, then a 20 million army with full strategic mobility that's not above glassing planets that provide too much resistance could concievably take the key worlds. While nobles may have multi-planet resources it doesn't help if they can't be moved.

It is not a 20 million army. 2-4 million and that is already stretching it. More realistically it is at best an army of 1-2 millions.

I always saw the Jihad itself as a series of strategic strikes against those who didn't fall in line. And it's not as if the nobility would go into full revolt. To them, Paul would seem to be just another Emperor, using Freman rather than Saudaukar. As long as their profits and their power remained (and there was a Landsraad for a time after the Jihad), then there would be no reason for them to not support this new Emperor (who has the full backing of the Guild, publically), and thus their forces could be added to the Order of Battle.

I very much doubt that given we never see any mention of allied forces in Messiah of Dune.

[AMT]

I didn't say that the allied force concept came from Messiah of Dune. Should have been clearer there, sorry. It was 1 part speculation and 1 part reading the "Heroes of Dune" books... unfortunatly. *shudder*
In those books, which actually take place during the Jihad, there is mention of some nobles allying themselves with Paul.

[Thanas]

I didn't say that the allied force concept came from Messiah of Dune. Should have been clearer there, sorry. It was 1 part speculation and 1 part reading the "Heroes of Dune" books... unfortunatly. *shudder*
In those books, which actually take place during the Jihad, there is mention of some nobles allying themselves with Paul.

Are these the KJA books? In that case, I think we should consider them non-canon because whatever they are, they are clearly not Dune books. Suddenly, an AI is behind everything. Yeah....right.

[AMT]

You forgot to mention Norma "Mary Sue" Cevna, she of the multi-millenia lifespan... because she's speshul.

As much as I'd like to consider them some weird crappy mix of Starsiege and Terminator, they technically are canon.

Besides, who doesn't like Super Cyborg Godling Duncan Idaho™, Kwisatch Haederach AND controlling AI to the machines?!

Excuse me, I need to go throw up for a totally unrelated reason now.

[Thanas]

You forgot to mention Norma "Mary Sue" Cevna, she of the multi-millenia lifespan... because she's speshul.

As much as I'd like to consider them some weird crappy mix of Starsiege and Terminator, they technically are canon.

I consider them to be superseded by the Dune books because Duncan Idaho is clearly not on the same level as Paul Atreides. Infact, the very wanking of Duncan is contradicted especially by the first Dune book. So no, let us just pretend that they never happened because otherwise we'll never get any rational decision going.

[Stravo]

Not trying to defend some of the craptastic stuff in Dune but when discussing the Great Jihad one should consider that many of these nobles and the Empire in general are used to low intensity conflicts, essentially raids and quick strikes with assasinations and sabotage being the order of the day usually. Remember that the Art of Kanlee(sp?) (or vendetta as it was originally known) is how most fights are resolved. It's literally too expensive to go planet taking with large armies. Instead you blow a few things up and assasinate key figures.

So when Paul shows up with a million man army of elite fighters motivated by religious zeal, space superiority and perfect prescience these noble armies were probably shocked and awed into submission. Quite possibly no noble army had fought in a real large scale engagement in generations due to the way the society is set up adding to their ineptness in halting the Jihad.

Let's remember that one of the reasons the Atreides needed to be destroyed by the emperor was because his army was being trained and equipped to even take on the Sardukar. Of all the noble houses they were the only one that the Emperor feared militarily which would seem to indicate that the other houses could easily be subdued by the application of a few legions of Sardukar. Paul was merely actually carrying out what the Emperor always held in his back pocket as a threat to keep him in power - attacking the nobles with the most elite troops in the known universe.

[Thanas]

Let's remember that one of the reasons the Atreides needed to be destroyed by the emperor was because his army was being trained and equipped to even take on the Sardukar. Of all the noble houses they were the only one that the Emperor feared militarily which would seem to indicate that the other houses could easily be subdued by the application of a few legions of Sardukar. Paul was merely actually carrying out what the Emperor always held in his back pocket as a threat to keep him in power - attacking the nobles with the most elite troops in the known universe.

Shocked and awed into submission hardly works when taking the death toll into account.

[Stofsk]

You forgot to mention Norma "Mary Sue" Cevna, she of the multi-millenia lifespan... because she's speshul.

As much as I'd like to consider them some weird crappy mix of Starsiege and Terminator, they technically are canon.

I consider them to be superseded by the Dune books because Duncan Idaho is clearly not on the same level as Paul Atreides. Infact, the very wanking of Duncan is contradicted especially by the first Dune book. So no, let us just pretend that they never happened because otherwise we'll never get any rational decision going.

As an aside, and to counter Sarevok's bullshit earlier in the thread, I actually like how Duncan Idaho, one of the elite Swordmasters of Ginaz, still goes down due to the Sardaukar overwhelming him. I like instead how Paul remembers Duncan's teachings and hears his voice as he fights his duel with Feyd-Rautha. Sort of reminds me of Star Wars in a way.

[Sea Skimmer]

Dune has to be the dumbest thing ever. If you built a shielded high speed bulldozer with a snorkel for the engine rising above the shield, and set the shield to block the slowest movement possible then you'd be near invulnerable and able to scatter whole armies. The forward movement speed of the bulldozer would ensure that a slow contact by an attacker is impossible unless they get in a jeep an ride up alongside it matching speeds, unlikely if the dozer is driven competently. The only way to fight the thing would be to lay landmines in its path, which everyone seems to be too dumb to use anyway, and which the bulldozer could just plow out of the way. I've had this idea a long time, as long as I've ever known about Dune and reading this thread seems only to confirm how damn well it would work. If its expensive to ship weapons... then it doesn't even matter because any planet worth owning is already going to have bulldozers on it. You just need to add a shield and snorkel. Anyone who got in the way might not die, but they'd sure learn what it feels like to be a bowling pin.

[Bakustra]

Dune has to be the dumbest thing ever. If you built a shielded high speed bulldozer with a snorkel for the engine rising above the shield, and set the shield to block the slowest movement possible then you'd be near invulnerable and able to scatter whole armies. The forward movement speed of the bulldozer would ensure that a slow contact by an attacker is impossible unless they get in a jeep an ride up alongside it matching speeds, unlikely if the dozer is driven competently. The only way to fight the thing would be to lay landmines in its path, which everyone seems to be too dumb to use anyway, and which the bulldozer could just plow out of the way. I've had this idea a long time, as long as I've ever known about Dune and reading this thread seems only to confirm how damn well it would work. If its expensive to ship weapons... then it doesn't even matter because any planet worth owning is already going to have bulldozers on it. You just need to add a shield and snorkel. Anyone who got in the way might not die, but they'd sure learn what it feels like to be a bowling pin.

Warfare in Dune isn't usually concerned with efficiency and effectiveness. Shields aren't the be-all end-all of warfare either. By the time of books five and six, shields are nowhere to be found, suggesting that they have been neutralized in some fashion.

[Thanas]

Warfare in Dune isn't usually concerned with efficiency and effectiveness. Shields aren't the be-all end-all of warfare either. By the time of books five and six, shields are nowhere to be found, suggesting that they have been neutralized in some fashion.

People most likely abandoned them since the Fremen defeated even shielded people (yeah I know, stupid - why people with super fast reflexes should be better against people who are trained to fight slow when fighting slow is the only way to penetrate the shield). So the money for shields might be better spent for recruiting more people.

[Simon_Jester]

People most likely abandoned them since the Fremen defeated even shielded people (yeah I know, stupid - why people with super fast reflexes should be better against people who are trained to fight slow when fighting slow is the only way to penetrate the shield)...

Reaction time, for one. If I can perceive that you are starting a move and begin my reaction in time to block it, you aren't going to be able to get through to me.