Dune 7 & 8 (Spoilers): Duncan Idaho?

[Crom]

Duncan Idaho ghola becomes the "Ultimate Kwisatz Haderach" and fuses with a robot to become king of the machines and men. Then Leto II ghola laments that he was wrong, and Murbella also goes on about how Leto II was totally off base with his Scattering.

BH & KJA claim they were basing their writings off of Frank Herbert's notes, but one thing that bothers me is that Dune is about the problems with human reliance on superhuman figures. Isn't the ascension of Duncan Idaho to king of the universe just totally missing the point of Frank Herbert's work?

[Gaidin]

All I can say is if the ending is seriously based off of Herbert's notes, then it's a good thing he didn't get past Chapterhouse. As for missing the point, yea it is. The entire purpose of God Emperor of Dune was personified in Leto II's breeding project that was designed to make a line of humanity immune to prescience and essentially make them independent. I'd pay a lot of money to actually see those notes because after the end of Dune 8 I was seriously wondering if they'd been pushing that as a publicity stunt to justify what they came up with.

[Zed]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was based on Herbert's notes. I've always found the fifth and sixth novels to lack the quality of the former four.

[Ghost Rider]

Quiet! This makes way for Paul and Chani's etenal lurve to manifest itself to dazzle even the STARS!!!

From what summaries I read, the entire KJA/BH masturbation fest is just Brian angry that daddy didn't love him enough and needing to express it in some bizarre fanfaction that had character express the weirdest shit, and oh yes...shoehorning Mary-Sues.

[Thanas]

Can you link to these summaries?

I only read the "House [insert here]" books and these were already substandard quality, despite being hailed as the best of them.

Though given how Herbert essentially turned the Golden Path into "slavery for all" I'd not be surprised if some of it is based on some obscure notes. But I am very certain Duncan Idaho the god is not based on any notes, because that is not the character of Duncan at all.

[Crom]

All I can say is if the ending is seriously based off of Herbert's notes, then it's a good thing he didn't get past Chapterhouse. As for missing the point, yea it is. The entire purpose of God Emperor of Dune was personified in Leto II's breeding project that was designed to make a line of humanity immune to prescience and essentially make them independent. I'd pay a lot of money to actually see those notes because after the end of Dune 8 I was seriously wondering if they'd been pushing that as a publicity stunt to justify what they came up with.

Yeah, the Golden Path seemed to be about ensuring human survival through expansion and freeing people of their dependence on oracles. I never got the sense from Frank Herbert's writing that he intended for Leto to be wrong, if anything I thought Leto II often seemed to be the voice for Frank Herbert.

I've been reading O'Reilly's book on Dune and he's got me convinced that Paul Atreides was meant to be a compelling superhero to better illustrate the problem with humanity's dependence on messiahs. Resolving the series with the ascension of a new superhero with ueber powers just seems to be thematically wrong.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was based on Herbert's notes. I've always found the fifth and sixth novels to lack the quality of the former four.

I've found the 5th & 6th books to be among my favorite. I think they're better written as novels, but less layered than the preceding four.

Quiet! This makes way for Paul and Chani's etenal lurve to manifest itself to dazzle even the STARS!!!

From what summaries I read, the entire KJA/BH masturbation fest is just Brian angry that daddy didn't love him enough and needing to express it in some bizarre fanfaction that had character express the weirdest shit, and oh yes...shoehorning Mary-Sues.

I don't want to get angry with KJA/BH, but I agree with you, it seriously feels like there's a vendetta being acted out in the novels.

Oh yeah, Chani & Paul's love. I remember Chani complaining all the time about how Paul wasn't a good husband. Oh, wait. She was a Fremen, so Paul going out an kicking ass was his first husbandly duty.

[Crom]

Can you link to these summaries?

I only read the "House [insert here]" books and these were already substandard quality, despite being hailed as the best of them.

Though given how Herbert essentially turned the Golden Path into "slavery for all" I'd not be surprised if some of it is based on some obscure notes. But I am very certain Duncan Idaho the god is not based on any notes, because that is not the character of Duncan at all.

I've been going to the wikipedia page: Sandworms of Dune.

I'm certain that Duncan was never meant to be a god too. Where did you get the "Slavery for All" idea for the Golden Path? I thought it was about, "Go forth and multiply. For realz this time."

[Zed]

I'm certain that Duncan was never meant to be a god too. Where did you get the "Slavery for All" idea for the Golden Path? I thought it was about, "Go forth and multiply. For realz this time."

I think Thanas is referring to how Leto had to enslave the entire galaxy for the Scattering to take place.

[Thanas]

I'm certain that Duncan was never meant to be a god too. Where did you get the "Slavery for All" idea for the Golden Path? I thought it was about, "Go forth and multiply. For realz this time."

The Golden Path is a bureaucracy that stifles any innovation, any change and serves as nothing but despotism for over 3500 years. Leto transforms the entire realm into a theocracy, maintained by the threat of death and through his manipulations. As well as instituting a breeding program. Also, when his tyranny collapsed, it then resulted in the famine times.

I call that slavery.

[Crom]

The Golden Path is a bureaucracy that stifles any innovation, any change and serves as nothing but despotism for over 3500 years. Leto transforms the entire realm into a theocracy, maintained by the threat of death and through his manipulations. As well as instituting a breeding program.

I call that slavery.

Oh, that.

Yes, that would be slavery. When I think of the Golden Path I always jump ahead to the Scattering and the Famine Times, but yes, apparently 3,500 years under the boot of a prescient human-worm hybrid was a big part of the Golden Path.

[Zed]

I think it made sense though - it really makes it quite clear why Paul refused to take up that mantle.

[Thanas]

I think it made sense though - it really makes it quite clear why Paul refused to take up that mantle.

It doesn't make sense. If you have a stifling theocracy that succesfully fights innovation, it will not result in a new golden age, it will resort in people reverting back to the stone age. Islam is the most prominent example of how damaging a theocracy is to innovation.

And before anyone brings out the catholic church, remember that it was fairly liberal for most of its days and never got complete control over Europe. Unlike the theocracy of the God Emperor.

[Zed]

It's not meant to cause a new golden age, but rather a survival of the human species. The God Emperor's goal was to create resentment and stir the desire for liberty, which would cause humanity to scatter to unknown parts of the universe, so that they could never be overcome by a single threat ever again.

[Thanas]

It's not meant to cause a new golden age, but rather a survival of the human species. The God Emperor's goal was to create resentment and stir the desire for liberty, which would cause humanity to scatter to unknown parts of the universe, so that they could never be overcome by a single threat ever again.

Yes....let us destroy civilization, plunge the galaxy into chaos and famine and hope it turns out alright. And Herbert even acknowledges that over 2000 years later Humanity still has not recovered. Brilliant plan that is.

Give me any example how the destruction of an advanced empire has not set back humanity. It has never happened in history.

[Crom]

It doesn't make sense. If you have a stifling theocracy that succesfully fights innovation, it will not result in a new golden age, it will resort in people reverting back to the stone age. Islam is the most prominent example of how damaging a theocracy is to innovation.

And before anyone brings out the catholic church, remember that it was fairly liberal for most of its days and never got complete control over Europe. Unlike the theocracy of the God Emperor.

I agree with you about the realm of a stifling theocracy, but I think you're overlooking the fact that Leto was also loosening the Butlerian Jihad related restrictions on Ixian research. The Ixians, and I guess the Empire, were actually advancing in technology under his reign.

[Thanas]

I agree with you about the realm of a stifling theocracy, but I think you're overlooking the fact that Leto was also loosening the Butlerian Jihad related restrictions on Ixian research. The Ixians, and I guess the Empire, were actually advancing in technology under his reign.

And what new technologies do we see that are outside the capabilities of the old Empire? All I know of is the replacement of navigators and the no-ships, but that is it.

[Ghost Rider]

Can you link to these summaries?

I only read the "House [insert here]" books and these were already substandard quality, despite being hailed as the best of them.

Later this afternoon, I'll try dig up a few of them. I know some were some of Nephyts summarizing a few books, which even after her own personal commentary does state some rather purely insane and inane story points. Others were actually trowling around the internet seeing if I could find just an objective summary.

[Crom]

And what new technologies do we see that are outside the capabilities of the old Empire? All I know of is the replacement of navigators and the no-ships, but that is it.

There's the transcribing device that Leto could control mentally from a distance and I think ridulian crystals were an invention of the time. Those are the two I can think of immediately.

I think it's implied that the Ixians have reinvented thinking machines, Duncan suspects the presence of one in Moneo's office.

[Bakustra]

I agree with you about the realm of a stifling theocracy, but I think you're overlooking the fact that Leto was also loosening the Butlerian Jihad related restrictions on Ixian research. The Ixians, and I guess the Empire, were actually advancing in technology under his reign.

And what new technologies do we see that are outside the capabilities of the old Empire? All I know of is the replacement of navigators and the no-ships, but that is it.

For that matter, those only came at the very end of his regime. There were a few other inventions, but they were specifically designed for the needs of Leto II, like the implanted though-dictation machine.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'd always thought the Golden Path was Leto saying 'You want to tie yourselves to oracles? I'll tie you to MY FUCKING BALLS!' and basically teaching humanity a lesson, so that after he dies and his path falls apart, we'll never want to be in that sort of situation again.

Which makes him the biggest prick in existence, but it worked.

[Crom]

I'd always thought the Golden Path was Leto saying 'You want to tie yourselves to oracles? I'll tie you to MY FUCKING BALLS!' and basically teaching humanity a lesson, so that after he dies and his path falls apart, we'll never want to be in that sort of situation again.

Which makes him the biggest prick in existence, but it worked.

I think Thanas's point is that it shouldn't have worked, that the kind of oppressive theocratic regime portrayed would have crippled humanity back to the stone age.

[Zed]

It's not meant to cause a new golden age, but rather a survival of the human species. The God Emperor's goal was to create resentment and stir the desire for liberty, which would cause humanity to scatter to unknown parts of the universe, so that they could never be overcome by a single threat ever again.

Give me any example how the destruction of an advanced empire has not set back humanity.

Whether or not this has occurred in our world is irrelevant. Leto II was prescient, and knew by virtue of this prescience that humanity would need to scatter out of all reach or perish. There were no alternatives that did not lead to extinction - whether or not humanity was catapulted back to the stone age did not matter to him:

The Golden Path demands it. And what is the Golden Path? you ask. It is the survival of humankind, nothing more nor less. We who have prescience, we who know the pitfalls in our human futures, this has always been our responsibility.
Survival.
How you feel about this - your petty woes and joys, even your agonies and raptures - seldom concerns us.

[Thanas]

Can you link to these summaries?

I only read the "House [insert here]" books and these were already substandard quality, despite being hailed as the best of them.

Later this afternoon, I'll try dig up a few of them. I know some were some of Nephyts summarizing a few books, which even after her own personal commentary does state some rather purely insane and inane story points. Others were actually trowling around the internet seeing if I could find just an objective summary.

Found them, I think.

[Thanas]

I'd always thought the Golden Path was Leto saying 'You want to tie yourselves to oracles? I'll tie you to MY FUCKING BALLS!' and basically teaching humanity a lesson, so that after he dies and his path falls apart, we'll never want to be in that sort of situation again.

Which makes him the biggest prick in existence, but it worked.

I think Thanas's point is that it shouldn't have worked, that the kind of oppressive theocratic regime portrayed would have crippled humanity back to the stone age.

Indeed it is.

Whether or not this has occurred in our world is irrelevant. Leto II was prescient, and knew by virtue of this prescience that humanity would need to scatter out of all reach or perish. There were no alternatives that did not lead to extinction - whether or not humanity was catapulted back to the stone age did not matter to him:

Survival of humankind...from what, exactly? What is the great threat? There is none. Look, we can all go "but the book says so", the simple truth is that it makes no sense.

[Crom]

Whether or not this has occurred in our world is irrelevant. Leto II was prescient, and knew by virtue of this prescience that humanity would need to scatter out of all reach or perish. There were no alternatives that did not lead to extinction - whether or not humanity was catapulted back to the stone age did not matter to him:

Survival of humankind...from what, exactly? What is the great threat? There is none. Look, we can all go "but the book says so", the simple truth is that it makes no sense.

One threat mentioned in GEoD is self-replicating hunter-seekers, but Leto says they dodged that one.

The overall threat that Leto was addressing, I thought, was any threat that humanity would encounter in the future. He wanted humans to be too numerous and adaptable to ever be wiped out by a singular cataclysmic event.