Dune 7 & 8 (Spoilers): Duncan Idaho?

[AMT]

Survival of humankind...from what, exactly? What is the great threat? There is none. Look, we can all go "but the book says so", the simple truth is that it makes no sense.

The book does say so though. It was meant to keep humanity from stagnating, as the Butlerian Jihad and the Imperial system from it made a safe, slow, and sure decline. His way, he brings about a tyranny so powerful that people decide to not allow themselves to be tied into a singular strong central figure, no matter his power.

And apparently to save them from being found out by any such figure should they come into being in the future, negating the next Kwisatch Haederach like being from finding them.

[Thanas]

Whether or not this has occurred in our world is irrelevant. Leto II was prescient, and knew by virtue of this prescience that humanity would need to scatter out of all reach or perish. There were no alternatives that did not lead to extinction - whether or not humanity was catapulted back to the stone age did not matter to him:

Survival of humankind...from what, exactly? What is the great threat? There is none. Look, we can all go "but the book says so", the simple truth is that it makes no sense.

One threat mentioned in GEoD is self-replicating hunter-seekers, but Leto says they dodged that one.

The overall threat that Leto was addressing, I thought, was any threat that humanity would encounter in the future. He wanted humans to be too numerous and adaptable to ever be wiped out by a singular cataclysmic event.

But what singular cataclysmic event? There is none that can wipe out an empire that has nearly a million planets. Except the end of the universe itself, but there is no escaping that.

The book does say so though. It was meant to keep humanity from stagnating, as the Butlerian Jihad and the Imperial system from it made a safe, slow, and sure decline. His way, he brings about a tyranny so powerful that people decide to not allow themselves to be tied into a singular strong central figure, no matter his power.

And apparently to save them from being found out by any such figure should they come into being in the future, negating the next Kwisatch Haederach like being from finding them.

So...the answer to stagnation is....more stronger stagnation?

And if you want to prevent humanity from being wiped out, easy. Simply send colonists away with ships that wipe their memory cores after being out of distance from the old empire.

This would also be far more effective than stopping technology growth and thereby limiting the potential for escape in the first place.

[Crom]

But what singular cataclysmic event? There is none that can wipe out an empire that has nearly a million planets. Except the end of the universe itself, but there is no escaping that.

I have no answer for you. I guess extinction. Leto only seemed to care about survival, and the GP was the timeline he foresaw that ensured humanity's continued survival into ... infinity? I'm not sure.

[Zed]

I'm far more convinced that the terrible danger to humanity's survival were the thinking machines.

Consider the following passage - p. 349 of God Emperor, in my version:

She had to be made to recognize that his primary consciousness worked in a Fremen way and that, like the terrible machines of that apocalyptic vision, the predator could follow any creature who left tracks.
"The Golden Path," she whispered. "I can feel it." Then, glaring at him. "It's so cruel!"
"Survival has always been cruel."
"They couldn't hide," she whispered. Then loud: "What have you done to me?"

[CaptainChewbacca]

Found them, I think.

What.
The.
Fuck.

I'm sooooooo glad I didn't read beyond Chapterhouse.

[Gaidin]

Survival of humankind...from what, exactly? What is the great threat? There is none. Look, we can all go "but the book says so", the simple truth is that it makes no sense.

That would be the thing hinted at at the end of Chapterhouse Dune that drove the Honored Matres to flee back to the original Imperial Space. Since I hated Dune 7&8 so much I'll refrain from speculating on whether it should've actually been the original thinking machines of the Butlerian Jihad. What it is, we don't know. But it was there.

[Crom]

Found them, I think.

What.
The.
Fuck.

I'm sooooooo glad I didn't read beyond Chapterhouse.

[Reads the summary]





Yep. Definitely fanfiction.

[Thanas]

Even if they are the thinking machines, I very much doubt that given how there are at least 6000 years to prepare before their arrival, the empire can not either colonise the universe far better than people with low tech after going through a collapse and/or built up a resistance to the machines.

Or otherwise the thinking machines will eventually catch up on them anyway, because they never lose their tech base and thus have a head start.

[Zed]

Whether the Empire could put up a better fight against the machines than the scattered pockets of humanity was irrelevant to Leto's vision: humanity would lose, regardless of the marginally better technology of Imperial times. Leto's purpose was to ensure that at least pockets of humanity survived, simply by virtue of existing elsewhere, far beyond the reaches of the original imperium.

[Thanas]

Whether the Empire could put up a better fight against the machines than the scattered pockets of humanity was irrelevant to Leto's vision: humanity would lose, regardless of the marginally better technology of Imperial times. Leto's purpose was to ensure that at least pockets of humanity survived, simply by virtue of existing elsewhere, far beyond the reaches of the original imperium.

As I said, makes no sense. You have 6000 years of colony ships vs a scrambling exodus over a few hundred years. Which ones do you think would be more effective at creating more pockets beyond the reach of the Imperium?

[Crom]

As I said, makes no sense. You have 6000 years of colony ships vs a scrambling exodus over a few hundred years. Which ones do you think would be more effective at creating more pockets beyond the reach of the Imperium?

Wow, you're right. That's a terrible plan! It makes sense that a boy possessed by an pharoh who has been dead for millions of years would come up with it.

[Zed]

I'd wager that Leto's plan was more effective than any meek plan of colonisation would have been. Leto burned a memory of tyranny into the human spirit – and it is important to realize that memories function differently in the Duneverse, given the fact that they are retained across generations. This isn't limited merely to prophets and Bene Gesserit, who have conscious access to those memories: even other people have ancestral memories, which influence them unconsciously:

Memory has a curious meaning to me, a meaning I have hoped others might share. It continually astonishes me how people hide from their ancestral memories, shielding themselves behind a thick barrier of mythos. (...) We carry all of our ancestry forward like a living wave, all of the hopes and joys and griefs, the agonies and the exultations of our past. Nothing within those memories remains completely without meaning or influence, not as long as there is a humankind somewhere.

As a people, you react against threats to innocence and the peril of the helpless young. Unexplained sounds, visions and smells raise the hackles you have forgotten you possess. (...) This is system-feedback at its most primitive level. Your cells remember.

Leto's lesson is very simple: it is a lesson that teaches mankind independence, a lesson they will never forget. They are ever to flee central government and continue along their own paths, instilling a desire for freedom that would set in motion Scattering after Scattering:

When I set out to lead humankind along my Golden Path, I promised them a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern which humans deny with their words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, the condition they call peace. Even as they speak, they create the seeds of turmoil and violence. (...) I give them enduring eons of enforced tranquility which plods on and on despite their every effort to escape into chaos. Believe me, the memory of Leto's peace shall abide with them forever. They will seek their quiet security thereafter only with extreme caution and steadfast preparation.

It is galling to be held in place against your will. This is why I teach about tyranny in the best possible way - by example. Even though you read these words after a passage of eons, my tyranny will not be forgotten. My Golden Path assures this. Knowing my message, I expect you to be exceedingly careful about the powers you delegate to any government.

[Thanas]

I'd wager that Leto's plan was more effective than any meek plan of colonisation would have been.

6000 years of comparatively high-tech colonisation. Drawing on resources of a million worlds. VS: a few hundred years of scattering, at low tech, after dreadful famines. It beggers belief that you think the former meek while endorsing the latter. Empires who are collapsing cannot start colonization efforts. They are far too busy to survive.

Leto burned a memory of tyranny into the human spirit – and it is important to realize that memories function differently in the Duneverse, given the fact that they are retained across generations. This isn't limited merely to prophets and Bene Gesserit, who have conscious access to those memories: even other people have ancestral memories, which influence them unconsciously:
[...]Leto's lesson is very simple: it is a lesson that teaches mankind independence, a lesson they will never forget. They are ever to flee central government and continue along their own paths, instilling a desire for freedom that would set in motion Scattering after Scattering:

This makes even less sense. Where will they get the resources from? Far better to just make a mandate that they start colonization efforts after a while. Compared to his other manipulations, that one should be pretty trivial to manage. Also, no need to teach them not to built empires. Empires form because there is a need or an opportunity for them. Just ensure humanity is scattered enough (it is not as if Space is not big enough) in the colonization efforts and voila. Or otherwise simply send the most rebellious people into space, it is not as if his empire had a shortage of those.

And if he wants to make sure they never use central government, maybe, maybe brainwashing them for 3500 years that theocracy was the best ever was not a good idea either.

[Stofsk]

Found them, I think.

What.
The.
Fuck.

I'm sooooooo glad I didn't read beyond Chapterhouse.

I knew the KJA and Brian Herbert books were shit when I read the first two 'House' novels. I chucked them away and never looked back. I'm so glad another's misfortune has spared me.

[AMT]

I'd wager that Leto's plan was more effective than any meek plan of colonisation would have been.

6000 years of comparatively high-tech colonisation. Drawing on resources of a million worlds. VS: a few hundred years of scattering, at low tech, after dreadful famines. It beggers belief that you think the former meek while endorsing the latter. Empires who are collapsing cannot start colonization efforts. They are far too busy to survive.

Empire yes. Which was the point. That it would not be a central governmental effort. It would be done at the planetary level, so that instead of the homogeny which had been enforced for so long, different ways would become the norm.

This makes even less sense. Where will they get the resources from? Far better to just make a mandate that they start colonization efforts after a while. Compared to his other manipulations, that one should be pretty trivial to manage. Also, no need to teach them not to built empires. Empires form because there is a need or an opportunity for them. Just ensure humanity is scattered enough (it is not as if Space is not big enough) in the colonization efforts and voila. Or otherwise simply send the most rebellious people into space, it is not as if his empire had a shortage of those.

The other problem with that is that a tyrant with prescience could concievably hunt them down. Not only did he plan to make it so they would scatter, but the blindness to prescience was meant to scatter with them.

And if he wants to make sure they never use central government, maybe, maybe brainwashing them for 3500 years that theocracy was the best ever was not a good idea either.

Except he didn't. In fact his entire reign was meant to slowly create a widespread swell of support against such things, and to show the folly of following such governments when the cult of personality dies.

[Stravo]

Something else about the Scattering seemed retarded. If you know an enemy is coming, and you have thousands of years heads up time, why doesn't Leto start a militarization program to make mankind unassailable? He knows when, where, who, what is coming. He probably knows their capabilities and numbers. Why the hell can't mankind just defeat them as they already did in the Butlerian jihad?

It's a defeatist vision of humanity when you go into something expecting or planning defeat and your best answer is to...scatter them to the winds with little or no tech base or warning?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Did they ever say what the scattering/return was about? I got the sense the Honored Matres and the rest were running FROM something, but I never found out what.

[Stofsk]

Did they ever say what the scattering/return was about? I got the sense the Honored Matres and the rest were running FROM something, but I never found out what.

Super face dancers is the implication in Chapterhouse. Which is what Danial and Marty are, KJA be damned.

[Nephtys]

Found them, I think.

What.
The.
Fuck.

I'm sooooooo glad I didn't read beyond Chapterhouse.

I knew the KJA and Brian Herbert books were shit when I read the first two 'House' novels. I chucked them away and never looked back. I'm so glad another's misfortune has spared me.

Ah yes, my old rant. Seriously, Dune 7 and 8 are completely bad fanfiction, full of returning old characters to life, crossovers, and even inserting your own self-created character as the Mary Sue that saves everyone (Norma fucking Cenva). But seriously though, the last page of the book is Paul and Chani, watching a sunset over a desert, cuddling. How hard can one man trash his father's work? Pretty damn hard, I suppose. Even if Frank really progressed in his suckage after the first book.

[Bakustra]

Leto also had the secondary objective of breeding humans invisible to precognition without being precognitive themselves. This took up most of his three thousand years, but his overall plan for the Scattering is still pretty dumb, especially considering that he let himself be killed.

Did they ever say what the scattering/return was about? I got the sense the Honored Matres and the rest were running FROM something, but I never found out what.

Super face dancers is the implication in Chapterhouse. Which is what Danial and Marty are, KJA be damned.

There is also the implication that the independent face dancers themselves are running from something, at least according to the Bene Gesserit who meets with the "Handlers". But Daniel and Marty are still definitely face dancers, and themselves may be the threat. Or it could be the former subjects of the Honored Matres.

[Samuel]

Empire yes. Which was the point. That it would not be a central governmental effort. It would be done at the planetary level, so that instead of the homogeny which had been enforced for so long, different ways would become the norm.

The other problem with that is that a tyrant with prescience could concievably hunt them down. Not only did he plan to make it so they would scatter, but the blindness to prescience was meant to scatter with them.

You can just devolve the responsibility to planetary governers in order to avoid having the effort be homogeneous and as for being able to track them down using prescience... why not colonize every star to make such an effort useless?

[Ghost Rider]

Can you link to these summaries?

I only read the "House [insert here]" books and these were already substandard quality, despite being hailed as the best of them.

Later this afternoon, I'll try dig up a few of them. I know some were some of Nephyts summarizing a few books, which even after her own personal commentary does state some rather purely insane and inane story points. Others were actually trowling around the internet seeing if I could find just an objective summary.

Found them, I think.

Yup, and I still echo my comment. Those poor fucking trees.

Really, even reading other summaries have all come to basically the same conclusion of this was raping Herbert's corpse. Though I quit reading Dune after God Emperor because I enjoyed the feel of the initial book and by God Emperor, it was largely different for me.

What I find rather hilarious in how bad is that even reading the backs of the paperbacks of the KJA/BH novels give an immensely poor telling, let alone this.

[Thanas]

Empire yes. Which was the point. That it would not be a central governmental effort. It would be done at the planetary level, so that instead of the homogeny which had been enforced for so long, different ways would become the norm.

The other problem with that is that a tyrant with prescience could concievably hunt them down. Not only did he plan to make it so they would scatter, but the blindness to prescience was meant to scatter with them.

You can just devolve the responsibility to planetary governers in order to avoid having the effort be homogeneous and as for being able to track them down using prescience... why not colonize every star to make such an effort useless?

In addition to that: Prescience is pretty useless. It only works when you get an obvious advantage in military power, an advantage that will not be diminished.

Paul himself was blind to many things of prescience himself, such as the plot to kidnap a worm etc.

[Bilbo]

Stupid I know but being able to see the future implies certain things. One thing it implies is that just sending out colonies alone is not enough for guaruntee survival. Quite possibly Leto saw that no matter how well he colonized the universe at some point a force would take control of the empire and use it to reign in and destroy all of the colonies.

So Leto needed to send out massive colony waves and destroy the Imperium that he saw as such a threat in the future.

The arguement, no matter how dumb it sounds, is like the Jedi arguement. Basically that by seeing the future whatever action they take must be the right one no matter how dumb it sounds.

Basically Leto had to scatter humanity and destroy the Imperium in a specific enough way or his plan will fail in the long run.

The idea in the later books that the ultimate foe was some stupid return of evil AI is just proof that KJA is a POS hack writier. The obvious intention from Frank Herbert was that some of humanties chickens would come back to roost in the form of Super Face Dancers and other creations of the Imperium like possibly other super future seeing despots from renegade BG factions. That would have made for a much more interesting story then a really lame Terminator Super AI copycat.

[Bilbo]

Another thought based on what I wrote earlier. In Dune Messiah the Facedancer Scytale admits that his own people the Bene Tlielax had succeeded in creating their own Kwisatz Haderach. I dont remember their being a reference to when they pulled this off only that the person in question, depressed over what his existance meant, committed suicide.

Maybe that is what Leto II feared. He feared the Imperium and all of humanity being overcome, dominated, and eventually destroyed, by a group of future Super Facedancer's who also possessed Kwisatz Haderach abilities.

So Leto did three things. He engineered people invisible to prescience, had the No-ships created, and made sure that the Imperium imploded when he was gone so that when this new threat of shape shifting future seers arrived they would not have any way to reign in all of humanity and dominate it.