Dune 7 & 8 (Spoilers): Duncan Idaho?

[Bakustra]

Another thought based on what I wrote earlier. In Dune Messiah the Facedancer Scytale admits that his own people the Bene Tlielax had succeeded in creating their own Kwisatz Haderach. I dont remember their being a reference to when they pulled this off only that the person in question, depressed over what his existance meant, committed suicide.

Maybe that is what Leto II feared. He feared the Imperium and all of humanity being overcome, dominated, and eventually destroyed, by a group of future Super Facedancer's who also possessed Kwisatz Haderach abilities.

So Leto did three things. He engineered people invisible to prescience, had the No-ships created, and made sure that the Imperium imploded when he was gone so that when this new threat of shape shifting future seers arrived they would not have any way to reign in all of humanity and dominate it.

The Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach committed suicide rather than do something completely foreign to his nature. That is how they planned to destroy Paul; either a ghola of Chani was completely foreign to his nature and he would kill himself, or it wasn't, and the Tleilaxu would have had a hold on him. There's also nothing to suggest that Leto II foresaw the new Face Dancers, or that the independent Face Dancers had the powers of a Kwisatz Haderach, and he definitely did not foresee the no-room's creation via prescience. In fact, I'm not sure that Leto II intended to defend against a specific threat rather than the generalized threat of future, precognitive tyrants, in which case organized colony ships would work far better. But for Leto II, like father, like son.

[Bilbo]

Another thought based on what I wrote earlier. In Dune Messiah the Facedancer Scytale admits that his own people the Bene Tlielax had succeeded in creating their own Kwisatz Haderach. I dont remember their being a reference to when they pulled this off only that the person in question, depressed over what his existance meant, committed suicide.

Maybe that is what Leto II feared. He feared the Imperium and all of humanity being overcome, dominated, and eventually destroyed, by a group of future Super Facedancer's who also possessed Kwisatz Haderach abilities.

So Leto did three things. He engineered people invisible to prescience, had the No-ships created, and made sure that the Imperium imploded when he was gone so that when this new threat of shape shifting future seers arrived they would not have any way to reign in all of humanity and dominate it.

The Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach committed suicide rather than do something completely foreign to his nature. That is how they planned to destroy Paul; either a ghola of Chani was completely foreign to his nature and he would kill himself, or it wasn't, and the Tleilaxu would have had a hold on him. There's also nothing to suggest that Leto II foresaw the new Face Dancers, or that the independent Face Dancers had the powers of a Kwisatz Haderach, and he definitely did not foresee the no-room's creation via prescience. In fact, I'm not sure that Leto II intended to defend against a specific threat rather than the generalized threat of future, precognitive tyrants, in which case organized colony ships would work far better. But for Leto II, like father, like son.

So when the Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach it was intentional? Kind of like the Bene Tleilax using him as a test to see how they could destroy Paul? Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

Leto might not have seen the creation of the no-room. But one does not have to be able to see the future to expect its creation. I rule the Imperium. I can see the future. I am making everyone's lives fucking miserable. I am letting you continue your research for some reason. One could easiyl assume that if a no-room or some other prescience blockign technology can be created that it will be attempted if for no other reason than to escape me. Its a simple fact of history that every advantage eventually begets a counter to it.

Its impossible to say what Leto was seeing as a threat, a general or specific one. If you include the abomination followup books of his son then one could argue that the uber Duncan who was super Kwisatz Haderach and part machine taking control as the new Emperor is proof that the actions of Paul and Leto II ultimately failed and that humanity is still doomed to cease to exist at least as we understand it now.

[Ghost Rider]

The BT KH was really something they created for study, along the same lines as their saintly guy, and monsters. They wanted to see what made these people tick.

[Bilbo]

The BT KH was really something they created for study, along the same lines as their saintly guy, and monsters. They wanted to see what made these people tick.

Okay, that would make sense. They wanted to create one to learn how best to destroy it. It does mean though that the technology is out there to create more.

[Ghost Rider]

The BT KH was really something they created for study, along the same lines as their saintly guy, and monsters. They wanted to see what made these people tick.

Okay, that would make sense. They wanted to create one to learn how best to destroy it. It does mean though that the technology is out there to create more.

Quite so. The BT dabbled in what others considered extraordinarily taboo, but that is much more philosophical thoughts that the general culture had. It is interesting that they had not only access, but pretty much everyone knew of it. The Great powers just accepted them and in fact who knows how much exploitation given Gholas are considered unnatural but not unusual.

The unusual part is that the BG never considered their great and grand project in the purely analytical way the BT did. They considered a KH(or something of that, since I think Children or one of the latter books considered only Leto II to being the true Kwizatch Haderach, but I digress) to what it really was, a mix of correct genes.

[Crom]

Quite so. The BT dabbled in what others considered extraordinarily taboo, but that is much more philosophical thoughts that the general culture had. It is interesting that they had not only access, but pretty much everyone knew of it. The Great powers just accepted them and in fact who knows how much exploitation given Gholas are considered unnatural but not unusual.

The unusual part is that the BG never considered their great and grand project in the purely analytical way the BT did. They considered a KH(or something of that, since I think Children or one of the latter books considered only Leto II to being the true Kwizatch Haderach, but I digress) to what it really was, a mix of correct genes.

I've never been entirely clear on the KH. What is a Kwisatz Haderach? It can't be just a prescient human, since the Guild Navigators are prescient.

[Gaidin]

I've never been entirely clear on the KH. What is a Kwisatz Haderach? It can't be just a prescient human, since the Guild Navigators are prescient.

To the Bene Gesserit the Kwisatz Haderach was the first male that had their abilities, and expanded on them I believe. The genetic memory that had access to was limited to the female line, where the KH had access to both male and female. That's the basic rundown as far as what their project was going for in Dune. I can't remember specifics on how much Leto II may or may not have expanded on that.

[Ghost Rider]

Quite so. The BT dabbled in what others considered extraordinarily taboo, but that is much more philosophical thoughts that the general culture had. It is interesting that they had not only access, but pretty much everyone knew of it. The Great powers just accepted them and in fact who knows how much exploitation given Gholas are considered unnatural but not unusual.

The unusual part is that the BG never considered their great and grand project in the purely analytical way the BT did. They considered a KH(or something of that, since I think Children or one of the latter books considered only Leto II to being the true Kwizatch Haderach, but I digress) to what it really was, a mix of correct genes.

I've never been entirely clear on the KH. What is a Kwisatz Haderach? It can't be just a prescient human, since the Guild Navigators are prescient.

Strangely they are quite vague on it as a whole, well not so really.

The closest we get to an explaination is from Paul when he refers to that the BG look into the feminine avenues of the past, and KH can look into both the masculine(which the BG cannot for some odd fear reason) and feminine. When combining that thought with the whole of that Reverand Mothers get literal spiritual advice from past ones? So like it is said, they are Male BGs and more, but the more is very ill definied as is what is a Bene Gesserit.

Herbert was very vague on it, and it's odd because he made Count Fenring a failed KH...which is funny given how adamant Mohiam was of every such a notion.

[Stravo]

Strangely they are quite vague on it as a whole, well not so really.

The closest we get to an explaination is from Paul when he refers to that the BG look into the feminine avenues of the past, and KH can look into both the masculine(which the BG cannot for some odd fear reason) and feminine. When combining that thought with the whole of that Reverand Mothers get literal spiritual advice from past ones? So like it is said, they are Male BGs and more, but the more is very ill definied as is what is a Bene Gesserit.

Herbert was very vague on it, and it's odd because he made Count Fenring a failed KH...which is funny given how adamant Mohiam was of every such a notion.

Wasn't there also this notion that Paul combined all of the specialized skills at once? He was a mentat, he could navigate through space, he could do Bene Gesserit wierding way, etc? or was that just on top of him being the KH. You're right I get the sense that the KH abilities were kept intentionally vague by Herbert.

[Ghost Rider]

Strangely they are quite vague on it as a whole, well not so really.

The closest we get to an explaination is from Paul when he refers to that the BG look into the feminine avenues of the past, and KH can look into both the masculine(which the BG cannot for some odd fear reason) and feminine. When combining that thought with the whole of that Reverand Mothers get literal spiritual advice from past ones? So like it is said, they are Male BGs and more, but the more is very ill definied as is what is a Bene Gesserit.

Herbert was very vague on it, and it's odd because he made Count Fenring a failed KH...which is funny given how adamant Mohiam was of every such a notion.

Wasn't there also this notion that Paul combined all of the specialized skills at once? He was a mentat, he could navigate through space, he could do Bene Gesserit wierding way, etc? or was that just on top of him being the KH. You're right I get the sense that the KH abilities were kept intentionally vague by Herbert.

The mentat, BG skills he learned, and such not were considered seperate, even by him. They were things to make him skilled above even the regular versions but they were thought as skills that could be learned rather then the KH powers.

Another point to keeping whatever the KH vague is how the fuck was Fenring going to kill Paul. Note that Paul believes this to be well within the count at the time he was supposed to, but they gave no hint at what it was.

[Crom]

Were his prescient abilities all that useful? The only time in the series that I remember prescience being really powerful is when Leto II told Duncan Idaho where to go and what to expect when wiping out attacking Face Dancers.

[Bilbo]

Were his prescient abilities all that useful? The only time in the series that I remember prescience being really powerful is when Leto II told Duncan Idaho where to go and what to expect when wiping out attacking Face Dancers.

They seemed to be along the lines of seeing the future and how possible choices could change it. Imagine not only being able to see your opponents moves in advance in chess but also thinking "what if I move my pawn here" and then seeing how this would alter the future.

This is how Leto in theory decided how to run his Golden Path in the attempt to save humanity.

The odd result of this power is to suggest that only a KH has any power at all to alter the future and only a KH has any sort of freewill. Everyone elses actions are determined by the actions chosen by the KH through his viewing various future possibilties and taking action based on those visions.

[Thanas]

Another point to keeping whatever the KH vague is how the fuck was Fenring going to kill Paul. Note that Paul believes this to be well within the count at the time he was supposed to, but they gave no hint at what it was.

I remember the reasons for that one: Fenrig was a non-existing variable to Paul. His failed KH status made him invisible to Paul's prescience, so no plan he ever formed calculated Fenrig into that. And he cannot predict his moves in single combat. Couple that with the fact that the count is supposed to be the deadliest man in the universe and you know why Paul feared him.

I bet Fenrig later came to regret not offing the genocidal maniac when he had the chance.

[Crom]

I remember the reasons for that one: Fenrig was a non-existing variable to Paul. His failed KH status made him invisible to Paul's prescience, so no plan he ever formed calculated Fenrig into that. And he cannot predict his moves in single combat. Couple that with the fact that the count is supposed to be the deadliest man in the universe and you know why Paul feared him.

I bet Fenrig later came to regret not offing the genocidal maniac when he had the chance.

Killing Paul wouldn't stop the jihad. If anything, it would make it worse by martyring Paul and removing one of the major mitigating influences.

[Thanas]

Killing Paul wouldn't stop the jihad. If anything, it would make it worse by martyring Paul and removing one of the major mitigating influences.

Yeah, I am sure that without having the person to persuade the Spacing guild to fall in line, without having the master strategist who can look into the future and without having a clear leader the Jihad would be able to accomplish much more....

Remove Paul and the Jihad pretty much collapses. Even more, given how Fenrig would have won in single combat against Paul, why should the Fremen not accept him, given that seems to be their custom?

[Stravo]

I remember the reasons for that one: Fenrig was a non-existing variable to Paul. His failed KH status made him invisible to Paul's prescience, so no plan he ever formed calculated Fenrig into that. And he cannot predict his moves in single combat. Couple that with the fact that the count is supposed to be the deadliest man in the universe and you know why Paul feared him.

I bet Fenrig later came to regret not offing the genocidal maniac when he had the chance.

Killing Paul wouldn't stop the jihad. If anything, it would make it worse by martyring Paul and removing one of the major mitigating influences.

IIRC Paul's moderating influence kept the jihad from being as bloody as it was "supposed" to be. The one thing that he kept trying to avoid was undertaking the jihad in general because of how bloody it was going to be and once he had no choice he just tried to guide it into less destructive avenues so I think you're right, killing Paul would only have made things worse.

[Gaidin]

I remember the reasons for that one: Fenrig was a non-existing variable to Paul. His failed KH status made him invisible to Paul's prescience, so no plan he ever formed calculated Fenrig into that. And he cannot predict his moves in single combat. Couple that with the fact that the count is supposed to be the deadliest man in the universe and you know why Paul feared him.

I bet Fenrig later came to regret not offing the genocidal maniac when he had the chance.

The two single combat fights Paul was in in the book were as unpredictable as Fenring would've been I believe. I know the fight with Jamis was for sure as it was described as a nexus, there being far too many variables for him to be able to predict anything.

[Crom]

Killing Paul wouldn't stop the jihad. If anything, it would make it worse by martyring Paul and removing one of the major mitigating influences.

Yeah, I am sure that without having the person to persuade the Spacing guild to fall in line, without having the master strategist who can look into the future and without having a clear leader the Jihad would be able to accomplish much more....

Remove Paul and the Jihad pretty much collapses. Even more, given how Fenrig would have won in single combat against Paul, why should the Fremen not accept him, given that seems to be their custom?

I thought Paul was under the impression that the jihad was coming one way or the other, and that if he died his followers would make him martyr. If he won they would say it was ordained by God.

[Thanas]

^How will they get to the other planets?

The two single combat fights Paul was in in the book were as unpredictable as Fenring would've been I believe. I know the fight with Jamis was for sure as it was described as a nexus, there being far too many variables for him to be able to predict anything.

I very much doubt Fenring would not have been more skilled than the others he fights with.

[Crom]

^How will they get to the other planets?

The Fremen have been buying off the Spacing Guild for years. I don't find it implausible that they use their new control over the spice to leverage themselves some ways off planet.

[AMT]

^How will they get to the other planets?

I wonder if the fanatical Fremen who have been organized, mobilized, and now have no quelling influences will be able to blackmail the spacing guild.

I mean, it's not like with Paul dead they don't keep control of the spice or anything.
Wait, they do.
So... with their stranglehold on the spice, they force the guild to ferry them around. The Fremen themselves go on their massive Jihad orgy of death and violence, and the universe is worse off.

[Ghost Rider]

Killing Paul wouldn't stop the jihad. If anything, it would make it worse by martyring Paul and removing one of the major mitigating influences.

Yeah, I am sure that without having the person to persuade the Spacing guild to fall in line, without having the master strategist who can look into the future and without having a clear leader the Jihad would be able to accomplish much more....

Remove Paul and the Jihad pretty much collapses. Even more, given how Fenrig would have won in single combat against Paul, why should the Fremen not accept him, given that seems to be their custom?

From the implication that Paul believes, the Jihad's pivotal point was whether or not the victory he had accomplished at Arrakeen would be enough to prevent Stilgar and the rest. They had in essence the Guild by the balls since he had the water traps already prepared and primed. His thought were was the motivation to make them into a collective force in only certain areas or not.

This is even reflected with the Reverend Mother and Jessica's thought of wild Fremen with suddenly an endorsement of their abilities, which the battle of Arrakeen was to the Duneverse. It bolstered the Fremen but demoralized the Sardukar. The flip side is that without Paul, they have no legal recourse within the Landsraad or the Emperor. Thus it would've likely been in the short term bloodier but no real long term implications as Paul had instituted with the religion and such not that came afterwards.

Interestingly, I wonder if something of this didn't go through Fenring since he knew of some of Paul's plans from what was uttered and had a very keen grasp of the political situation brewing at the moment. Even moreso he knew of things Paul likely didn't in Shaddam's court to add to these calculations.

[Thanas]

^How will they get to the other planets?

I wonder if the fanatical Fremen who have been organized, mobilized, and now have no quelling influences will be able to blackmail the spacing guild.

I mean, it's not like with Paul dead they don't keep control of the spice or anything.
Wait, they do.

Right...no quelling influences. The same quelling influences all just magically happened and will never return when they just witnessed their messiah getting slaughtered. In public. In single combat.

That would make most of them question their beliefs, I think.

So... with their stranglehold on the spice, they force the guild to ferry them around. The Fremen themselves go on their massive Jihad orgy of death and violence, and the universe is worse off.

Yeah, and the Spacing guild will of course never do something like transport them to the planets and let them rot there. Or maybe the same problems of demoralization will have more of an effect now? The losses will be greater without Paul to lead them. And given that even with the messiah leading them they had morale problems that lead to mutinies....

[AMT]

Right...no quelling influences. The same quelling influences all just magically happened and will never return when they just witnessed their messiah getting slaughtered. In public. In single combat.

That would make most of them question their beliefs, I think.

I don't. By that point they've gone over the edge. Killing Paul makes him a martyr and in his own words, a symbol. Paul gets killed, the Fremen go crazy and slaughter everyone not on their side, and go rampaging.

Yeah, and the Spacing guild will of course never do something like transport them to the planets and let them rot there. Or maybe the same problems of demoralization will have more of an effect now? The losses will be greater without Paul to lead them. And given that even with the messiah leading them they had morale problems that lead to mutinies....

Fremen who remain behind on Arrakis: "Hey, fish-face, where are our Death Commandos? We set it up so we would get regular couriers back and forth."

Navigator: "...they got lost?"

Fremen presses a button. Sounds of toilets flush across Arrakis as the Wind Traps are let loose, destroying all spice production and fucking everyone over.

...Unless you somehow think that all Fremen would leave Arrakis to gallivant across the Galaxy, leaving no one behind to make sure such a simple trick didn't happen.

As for morale and the like, Paul wasn't worried about the Fremen winning without him. He was worried about them committing indiscrminate slaughter. For example, rather then 50 or so worlds pacified, perhaps 500, or 5000.

[Gaidin]

I very much doubt Fenring would not have been more skilled than the others he fights with.

I'm not doubting that Fenring was better. I'm just bringing up the point that the single combats that Paul was in were circumstances where his prescience was useless anyway.