Enterprise NX vs Normandy SR-2

[Stargazer]

Q opens a dimensional rift, pulling both the end-of-series Enterprise NX and the fully upgraded and crewed Normandy SR-2 (from Mass Effect) into deep space. Q messes with their minds, making Archer think the Normandy is some kind of Suliban ship and Shepard think that the Enterprise is some new Reaper ship. The engagement starts at 100 kilometers. Which comes out on top?

[Starglider]

Q opens a dimensional rift, pulling both the end-of-series Enterprise NX and the fully upgraded and crewed Normandy SR-2 (from Mass Effect) into deep space. Q messes with their minds, making Archer think the Normandy is some kind of Suliban ship and Shepard think that the Enterprise is some new Reaper ship. The engagement starts at 100 kilometers. Which comes out on top?

An important factor is whether phasers use massive or massless particles. Kinetic barriers stop particle beams but not lasers. If you believe the TNG technical manual etc then phasers use 'nadions' which propagate at 'near lightspeed' and thus should have mass and be stopped by kinetic barriers. In which case the SR-2 most likely destroys the NX-1 with little trouble; it has excellent point defences that will render the NX-1's spatial torpedoes useless, whereas the NX-1's 'polarised hull plating' will do absolutely nothing to stop disruptor torpedoes from the SR-2's Javelin launchers. The SR-2's Thanix cannons blew the giant collector ship into glowing pieces in a few shots, a single good hit from them is also likely to cripple or destroy NX-1. FTL and impulse speeds seem comparable but the Normandy has shown more hard maneuvering, including dodging multiple particle beam shots.

If phase canons do ignore kinetic barriers, I'd still give the fight to SR-2; for one thing they've shown significantly more tactical competence than the NX-1 crew. Even with Joker's evasive maneuvers the Normandy will likely take a couple of phaser hits to the hull before getting a good firing solution on the NX-1, but the damage will probably be superficial. If you do the final ME2 mission without upgrading the guns and shields Normandy takes several hits from the collector ship particle beam, which likely has a significantly higher yield than NX-1's phase cannons - the result is some casualties but no major system failures.

[Batman]

Given the propagation speeds wee see in phasers (nevermind HAND phasers ) I don't see how they can be anything BUT massive particles (of whatever nature). We don't ever see them move anywhere NEAR c when as MASSLESS particles as I understand it MUST move at c.

[takemeout_totheblack]

End of the series NX-1? As in with ur-photorps and upgraded phase cannons? The Normandy SR-2 still serves Duchess his own ass with a side of cold fuck you!
The Normandy has far and away superior agility to any of Trek's lumbering poorly designed 'shoot these things on the side to fuck us up beyond repair' science ships (as evidenced by the chase in ME:2). Additionally most of the Normandy's weapons are designed to tear up armor with special properties. All this isn't even factoring in the superior skill of the N-SR-2's crew over those bumbling proto-Fed pacifists!

That said, I've always wondered if photorps can be shot down, they don't seem to move very fast and they don't seem to be particularly agile, and there's no mention of why no one shoots them down. So, would the Normandy SR-2's PD lasers be able to knock out a photorp if for some reason they couldn't just get out of the way?

[Srelex]

Well, for what it's worth, torps were intercepted in the nuTrek film...although ships there appeared to be a tad more competently designed in terms of weaponry. Are there any stats in background guides or whatnot for the actual series that give any hint as to torp speeds, just so we can have something solid to work with?

[Ford Prefect]

The Normandy has far and away superior agility to any of Trek's lumbering poorly designed 'shoot these things on the side to fuck us up beyond repair' science ships (as evidenced by the chase in ME:2).

The Normandy is probably limited to low double digit gees (I'm not certain what the upper limit of antimatter propulsion is, really), while the NX-1 probably shares similar huge soft science fiction accelerations to its future counterparts.

[Batman]

This is TREK we're talking about. Torpedo speeds cover everything from 'makes modern day missiles look speedy' TNG/TOS movie torpedoes to the couple thousand KPS TOS ones to the one-off VOY photorp that allegedly covered 8 million km in under a minute.

[Batman]

The Normandy has far and away superior agility to any of Trek's lumbering poorly designed 'shoot these things on the side to fuck us up beyond repair' science ships (as evidenced by the chase in ME:2).

The Normandy is probably limited to low double digit gees (I'm not certain what the upper limit of antimatter propulsion is, really), while the NX-1 probably shares similar huge soft science fiction accelerations to its future counterparts.

Which have, to my knowledge...never been actually quantified.

[adam_grif]

Normandy's barriers aren't anything special. They get completely shredded in the opening scenes of of the game, and although the SR2's barriers are upgraded, beam weapons (i.e. particle beams) seem to largely ignore them and strike armor. When the Oculus fight was happening this occurred, and in the opening cutscene it just cut straight through both sides of the Normandy, barriers be damned.

Particle beams do interact with barriers, but are highly effective at punching through them contrasted with high-mass objects. Phasers or what have you would be able to penetrate as long as they can achieve single digit KT levels of firepower. Even then, it's just a matter of striking it multiple times, since we can infer from ME2 cutscenes that the shields behave as is standard for SciFi - "Barriers holding at 23%".

The Thanix gun moves laughably slow, so the Ent's best plan is to stay at long range and fire phasers until the SR2 explodes.

[Ford Prefect]

Which have, to my knowledge...never been actually quantified.

Not in the case of Star Trek: Enterprise specifically, no. However, even a tenth of the capability of what is possible in TOS is a few hundred gees, which means if need be they can just bugger off pretty easily.

The Thanix gun moves laughably slow

Only on screen. In the Codex it's specifically referred to as being a weapon which travels at a reasonably high fraction of c, and as we know from developer comments on the matter, the Codex is a better representation of the universe than the visuals.

[Batman]

Which have, to my knowledge...never been actually quantified.

Not in the case of Star Trek: Enterprise specifically, no. However, even a tenth of the capability of what is possible in TOS is a few hundred gees, which means if need be they can just bugger off pretty easily.

As evidenced by-what, exactly? I'm not saying you're WRONG but IF that kind of acceleration has been firmly established it managed to do so without me noticing. It is heavily IMPLIED they have that kind of acceleration but to my knowledge the never got out and SAID it nor do we have any actual EVIDENCE for it that I know of.

[Stark]

Only on screen. In the Codex it's specifically referred to as being a weapon which travels at a reasonably high fraction of c, and as we know from developer comments on the matter, the Codex is a better representation of the universe than the visuals.

HAHA! Are people STILL using this, even in ME2? It was weak as piss authorial fiat stuff for ME1, but has it even been said of ME2?

[Stargazer]

The Thanix gun moves laughably slow, so the Ent's best plan is to stay at long range and fire phasers until the SR2 explodes.

In the scene where the Thanix appears to move slow, nothing else is seen moving relative to it, so that could be excused as a badly placed slo-mo scene. The codex states that Thanix beams move at a fraction of c.

[Starglider]

The Normandy is probably limited to low double digit gees (I'm not certain what the upper limit of antimatter propulsion is, really), while the NX-1 probably shares similar huge soft science fiction accelerations to its future counterparts.

Enterprise uses pure fusion for thrusters. Normandy uses fusion with antimatter injection 'afterburners', a feature that isn't available in Trek until the Enterprise D (according to the tech manuals and novels). Both ships have funky mass reduction technology, although SR-2's is actually canon and a core part of the ship, Trek's mass lightening is fluff only. Normandy's observed acceleration is at least as good as NX-01. If we use the same standard that Wars fans do for X-Wings, i.e. a quick cut between a planet surface and orbit is assumed to be a minutes or two at most, then the Normandy easily has hundreds of G of sublight acceleration.

Normandy's barriers aren't anything special. They get completely shredded in the opening scenes of of the game

That was by the spinal mount main gun of ship at several thousand times her mass, built with greatly superior technology. It's hardly surprising a few glancing shots took down the shields.

Particle beams do interact with barriers, but are highly effective at punching through them contrasted with high-mass objects.

We know how effective particle beams are vs barriers/armor/organic targets, because you get one as a squad support weapon. It is a bit better against shields vs armor, but the difference vs solid slugs is less than a factor of two.

The Thanix gun moves laughably slow

That was a slow motion effect for the firing, you can see the scene speed up again as Normany overflies the target ship. Frankly this is the only intepretation that makes sense even if you ignore the codex, because a few kilos of molten metal isn't going to have the yield to shatter a multi-kilometer-long metal/rock starship unless it's moving at c-fractional velocities.

[Stargazer]

The Collector ship is not multiple kilometers long. The Normandy officer in the opening scene identifies the ship as a cruiser, putting a limit of 800 meters on the ship's length. Anything more, and it would be considered a dreadnought. Granted, it's a very massive cruiser, but cruiser-length nonetheless.

[Starglider]

The Collector ship is not multiple kilometers long. The Normandy officer in the opening scene identifies the ship as a cruiser, putting a limit of 800 meters on the ship's length.

Contradicted by visuals of the giant interior chamber and the dialog of people standing in said chamber, saying it could contain all the humans from earth. The ship clearly doesn't fit into their standard naval classification scheme anyway. That officer was staring at a bizarre blip on a screen that matched no known profile, they probably just used 'cruiser' as a generic term for 'large ship on an intercept course'.

[adam_grif]

That was by the spinal mount main gun of ship at several thousand times her mass, built with greatly superior technology. It's hardly surprising a few glancing shots took down the shields.

It isn't spinal mounted. It's mounted at the front of the ship, but the interior is a huge chamber, not a big-long gun. No gun is seen when you're inside the chamber in the levels. The "greatly superior technology" thing is questionable. Yes, they're "more advanced" in some ways, but this multi-kilometer ship gets taken out by 2 hits from a gun that is equivelant to a standard, <500m long cruiser gun. Even other cruisers in MEverse can take hits from cruisers with their ships, and dreadnoughts can't be penetrated by cruiser shits unless they've been weakened by disruptor torps. Yet they can't. Their beam weapons and biotech is more advanced. Everything else is unknown.

The "thousands of time her mass" part is also misleading, since the majority of the ship is dedicated to harvesting humans and transporting collector troops. The actual gun is a tiny portion of the ship, which is consistent with the Occulus beam weapon being as powerful as it was despite being so much smaller in absolute size.

The Collector ship is not multiple kilometers long.

It's easily > 1 KM, from my memory of the interiors.

We know how effective particle beams are vs barriers/armor/organic targets, because you get one as a squad support weapon. It is a bit better against shields vs armor, but the difference vs solid slugs is less than a factor of two.

Gameplay isn't cannon. The Occulus particle beam weapon is mounted on a tiny ship, but still doesn't interact with the barrers in any visually identifiable way, striking the armor immediately. In-game, particle beams are only slightly more effective vs armor, but in gameplay shields and barriers directly interact with strong sunlight.

That was a slow motion effect for the firing, you can see the scene speed up again as Normany overflies the target ship. Frankly this is the only intepretation that makes sense even if you ignore the codex, because a few kilos of molten metal isn't going to have the yield to shatter a multi-kilometer-long metal/rock starship unless it's moving at c-fractional velocities.

The codex also says that one of its damaging mechanisms is HEAT, so it can't be going THAT fast if heat is a non-trivial component in the damage it's dealing. Also, it has a metal superstructure but is largely organic. Their biowank came back to bite them in the ass in the form of being heinously non-durable. Secoindary explosions can explain blowing them up, since all the ships use freakin' antimatter. Being closer to a particle beam than a slug can explain why it punched through barriers so easily.

That officer was staring at a bizarre blip on a screen that matched no known profile, they probably just used 'cruiser' as a generic term for 'large ship on an intercept course'.

The SR2 is approaching cruiser size, being twice the length of the SR1. "Cruisers" and "Dreadnoughts" are exactly the same, excepting that Dreads are larger. 800m is where they start. There's no way they mistook it for a cruiser, it's just a stupid error in the script. They called it a cruiser in promotinoal materials and artwork, and it's clearly not the Codex writers who decided to call it that.

Just another example of the fucking Codex writers being fucked in the ass by the art department. The one that pisses me off the most is the fucking ridiculous space-slut outfits the characters wear. High heels on Tuchanka!

[Lord of the Abyss]

Given the propagation speeds wee see in phasers (nevermind HAND phasers ) I don't see how they can be anything BUT massive particles (of whatever nature). We don't ever see them move anywhere NEAR c when as MASSLESS particles as I understand it MUST move at c.

An example; in the original series episode Wink of an Eye where Kirk is metabolically accelerated by the Scalosians, a race that lives in that condition at all times, he fires a phaser and it moves like a snail; the Scalosians he fires at just steps aside. But light is still fast enough to see fine by, and the Scalosians' own weapons also strike apparently instantly. And of course they aren't obliterating the ship and themselves just by moving like they would if they were moving at near light speeds.

[Omeganian]

The Normandy's upgraded armor may actually be to its disadvantage - a lot of carbon.

[Serafina]

The Normandy's upgraded armor may actually be to its disadvantage - a lot of carbon.

Density matters.

If it is very dense carbon, it wouldn't be an disadvantage. IIRC, the NDF depends greatly on density.
Naturaly carbon materials tend to have low density, while metals have high density - but it's possible to create a carbon-based structure with metal-like density.

[adam_grif]

The SR2 upgraded armor is "Silaris armor", artificial diamonds crushed together using mass-increasing fields + extreme compression. Or something. Anyway, it's dense and very strong.

[Starglider]

Yes, they're "more advanced" in some ways, but this multi-kilometer ship gets taken out by 2 hits from a gun that is equivelant to a standard, <500m long cruiser gun.

The ship had been heavily shot up by the colony defense turrets, and possibly the disabled Turian cruiser as well.

ven other cruisers in MEverse can take hits from cruisers with their ships, and dreadnoughts can't be penetrated by cruiser shits unless they've been weakened by disruptor torps.

If you take the Normandy without the Thanix cannons, her mass drivers are unable to do significant damage to the collector ship, and she has to close in and use the Javelin launchers instead. The Thanix cannons apparently have yield and/or shield piercing capability way beyond normal mass accelerators.

The "thousands of time her mass" part is also misleading, since the majority of the ship is dedicated to harvesting humans and transporting collector troops.

Normandy has huge absurdly spacious interiors as well. Though it's not as if NX-01 is any better, most of its volume seems to be crew quarters, corridors and Jefferies tubes.

Gameplay isn't cannon.

Gameplay in Star Wars and Star Trek games isn't canon, because those are adaptations of movies. However Mass Effect 2 is a computer game. Gameplay should be considered a primary source, at least on a par with cutscenes.

in gameplay shields and barriers directly interact with strong sunlight.

That was one specific star putting out an odd kind of radiation. Most likely the planet's magnetic field was gone, and high-energy charged particles were making it down to ground level. Obviously it wasn't sunlight as such since EM radiation doesn't interact with shields.

Just another example of the fucking Codex writers being fucked in the ass by the art department.

True but when analysing SW etc we take visual evidence over character dialogue. The massive interior cavern clearly implies multiple km length. Though it's possible that in the final battle the collector ship was being disadvantaged by EDI screwing with its systems / taking down its barriers, since she seems to have no problem hacking it enough to open interior doors and control flying platforms.

[Serafina]

The "gameplay is no evidence" specifically refers to elements of the game that are part of game balance, and calculating from that point onwards.
This is mostly done because many games have very high endurance (against enemy fire) and other inconsitencies that are necessary to make them playable.

However, gaming dialogue can be considered ful canon unless the respecitve canon policy says otherwise (which is clearly not the case for video games).

Therefore, regarding to Mass Effect, you can take every piece of dialogue and everything in cutscences as the same level of canonicity as you would with a tv show.

[Starglider]

The "gameplay is no evidence" specifically refers to elements of the game that are part of game balance, and calculating from that point onwards.

In SW canon, this rule exists because the setting was not designed for gameplay, and had to be misrepresented to make games fun. This situation does not exist in pure video game IPs; the setting details are directly designed to support gameplay. As such there is absolutely no reason to extend a rule that Lucasfilm made up for SW to pure video-game IPs.

This is mostly done because many games have very high endurance (against enemy fire) and other inconsitencies that are necessary to make them playable.

In Halo, the 'Legendary' difficulty is considered canon. I think it's reasonable to use the same standard for Mass Effect, in which case you characters are not that durable (two seconds of automatic fire, or two RPGs will kill someone with full shields and full ultra-tech armor).

[Serafina]

In Halo, the 'Legendary' difficulty is considered canon. I think it's reasonable to use the same standard for Mass Effect, in which case you characters are not that durable (two seconds of automatic fire, or two RPGs will kill someone with full shields and full ultra-tech armor).

Sounds reasonable, but i think you still have to take gameplay with a grain of salt - otherwise, you will run into things that just don't make much sense if you take them literary.