Doctor Who "Victory of the Daleks" [Spoilers]

[Ford Prefect]

That is basically the direction I expected with the Cult of Skaro ... except obviously we didn't get that. They could have been a really effective recurring villain, and a fresh take on the Daleks as a whole - if they were willing to write Caan as having a heart to heart conversation about 'home' with some New Yorker, they could have done just about anything. Even after that episode, when Caan escaped I still thought you could go in that direction, with Caan even more bitter towards the Doctor, hunting him across the cosmos ... except obviously we didn't get that.

[Stark]

The cult could have done the depowering too; that's what I expected. The cult to be personally driven to kill the Doctor (or even just fuck with him) due to being war veterans and having uniqueness, but creating regular old Daleks to do stuff.

Sadly RTD is an idiot and we had to get the laughable 'we stole some planets to destroy the universe' crap first, and lost all the interesting Daleks in the process.

Then again, how much of the awesome of S1 Dalek stories was just Eccleston being able to act? He was shitting in his pants but playing it down and it was great.

[Ford Prefect]

To be honest, I only really think Dalek really hits the mark for the whole episode. I think Eccleston sold Parting of the Ways, but Dalek just worked better. Even the ending, which was a fairly lame (I CANNOT SELF EXTERMINATE lolol) sort of rode on Eccleston. Man, how hard would it be to sell the next couple of seasons as prequels to season one?

[Stark]

The Dalek reveal in Bad Wolf was awesome, because the Daleks were serious; in later Dalek stories they were already a useless laughingstock.

Yeah, Dalek itself was actually pretty lame (Van Statten's awful acting, Adam the plot device, largely terrible dialogue) but everything between Eccleston and the Dalek was great.

[Thanas]

The Dalek reveal in Bad Wolf was awesome, because the Daleks were serious; in later Dalek stories they were already a useless laughingstock.

Yeah, Dalek itself was actually pretty lame (Van Statten's awful acting, Adam the plot device, largely terrible dialogue) but everything between Eccleston and the Dalek was great.

Dalek is my favorite Dalek episode - because you believed in the Dalek being a threat, or in other words, what you just said. Ecclestone was a good part of the reason why it worked, but Tennant handled the Daleks quite well - see Doomsday - if the script allowed for it. But after that the Daleks became so ridiculously stupid... the New York episodes, anyone?

[Stark]

All the S1 Dalek stories had both the Doctor and the Daleks being essentially hysterical towards each other; even a giant Dalek fleet was shitting its pants over the Doctor, and the Doctor was struggling to keep it together in front of them. The scene where he listens forlornly to the Daleks trying to blast the TARDIS is extremely powerful in selling this duality.

And yeah, then we get Daleks in Manhattan turning into squids and Medusa Cascades and fucking Davros.

[TC Pilot]

Dalek was the first time I'd ever even seen a Dalek, and it actually lived up to the description my friend gave of it as villains. The Manhatten arc and Stolen Earth/Journey's End... not so much.

Just compare them. In Dalek, the Doctor is literally screaming and clawing at the door to get away from a Dalek. In Manhatten, he strolls up to one after casually dismissing its threat of extermination (gee, it's almost as if it's becoming an annoying cliche). In Dalek, just touching one apparently is enough to set you on fire. In Journey's End, his companions are pushing them around, laughing it up. Hell, they even one-shot the "supreme" Dalek or whatever the hell it was.

[Johonebesus]

Dalek was the first time I'd ever even seen a Dalek, and it actually lived up to the description my friend gave of it as villains. The Manhatten arc and Stolen Earth/Journey's End... not so much.

Just compare them. In Dalek, the Doctor is literally screaming and clawing at the door to get away from a Dalek. In Manhatten, he strolls up to one after casually dismissing its threat of extermination (gee, it's almost as if it's becoming an annoying cliche). In Dalek, just touching one apparently is enough to set you on fire. In Journey's End, his companions are pushing them around, laughing it up. Hell, they even one-shot the "supreme" Dalek or whatever the hell it was.

Actually, Dalek was the anomaly. In their first appearance they were pathetic little mutant survivors of a once great humanoid civilization who lived in machines out of shame as much as necessity. They only conquered Earth after thinning the population with a plague, and this was before Earth became an interstellar empire. Most of their plans involved scheming and trickery to weaken or take advantage of their enemies, or to improve themselves. Before Genesis of the Daleks, they rarely seemed to be a real military threat to future interstellar powers.

[Stark]

They were just mad scientists instead of stupid robots. In DIOE the Earth controlled most of the solar system and was involved elsewhere; conquering Earth with trickery is better than a war you can avoid. These ARE the guys with vortex travel, after all.

[TC Pilot]

Actually, Dalek was the anomaly. In their first appearance they were pathetic little mutant survivors of a once great humanoid civilization who lived in machines out of shame as much as necessity. They only conquered Earth after thinning the population with a plague, and this was before Earth became an interstellar empire. Most of their plans involved scheming and trickery to weaken or take advantage of their enemies, or to improve themselves. Before Genesis of the Daleks, they rarely seemed to be a real military threat to future interstellar powers.

There's a difference between being a "military threat" and "villains," as Stark is pointing out. But be that as it may, they clearly went into the new image of the Daleks with the intention of making them a serious threat. An image which, through a couple of awful episodes, they proceeded to completely toss out the window.

I mean, does anyone do anything but roll there eyes at the number of "Oh no, the Daleks are returning! Whoops, they failed again. They're really dead, I promise" plots there are?

[Johonebesus]

There's a difference between being a "military threat" and "villains," as Stark is pointing out. But be that as it may, they clearly went into the new image of the Daleks with the intention of making them a serious threat. An image which, through a couple of awful episodes, they proceeded to completely toss out the window.

I mean, does anyone do anything but roll there eyes at the number of "Oh no, the Daleks are returning! Whoops, they failed again. They're really dead, I promise" plots there are?

I quite agree about their over use. My point was that they used to be threatening more because of their cunning than their physical strength. Their little personal tanks are tough, but not indestructible. A single Dalek could be taken out by weapons available in the sixties. Seeing the Doctor panic so and insist that if the Dalek escaped it could threaten the whole planet was too wankish. The execution wasn't great, but the basic idea that a handful of Daleks needed to build an army in order to conquer even 1930's Earth is more consistent with their old depiction than the invincible loner in Dalek. The silliness in Journey's End was more due to the DoctorDonna stupidity than the Daleks themselves. We've seen them manhandled when disabled lots of times. Seeing the Doctor carelessly bash an armed Dalek with a pipe was stupid, but so was making them out to be some god like threat.

[Ford Prefect]

Dalek was the first time I'd ever even seen a Dalek, and it actually lived up to the description my friend gave of it as villains. The Manhatten arc and Stolen Earth/Journey's End... not so much.

Just compare them. In Dalek, the Doctor is literally screaming and clawing at the door to get away from a Dalek. In Manhatten, he strolls up to one after casually dismissing its threat of extermination (gee, it's almost as if it's becoming an annoying cliche). In Dalek, just touching one apparently is enough to set you on fire. In Journey's End, his companions are pushing them around, laughing it up. Hell, they even one-shot the "supreme" Dalek or whatever the hell it was.

I like to imagine that the new look Daleks are part of of some grand plan to return them to the status of ultimate super villains again. Admittedly I haven o hopes for this working because their 'victory' was ... running away. Nice work, the Cult did that in Doomsday and Caan did it at the end of the Manhattan arc. If that episode had been set anywhere else, you might have had the Daleks win by, I don't know, blowing up the planet, but you can't do that when it's Earth.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Seeing the Doctor carelessly bash an armed Dalek with a pipe was stupid, but so was making them out to be some god like threat.

Not really, considering that the Daleks in the new series were supposed to have been wiped out in a war of mutual extermination with the most powerful people in the universe. It makes sense for them to be absurdly powerful.

Besides, since the one in Dalek downloaded the internet or some such, he may well have been worried it would hijack an ICBM silo and start World War 3.

EDIT: Oh and a response to Shroom and Hatred of the Daleks
YES.

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh man, Hatred of the Daleks would make for an AMAZING episode name! That just encapsulates it perfectly!

Seriously. The screeching voices of the Daleks aren't just good for screaming EXTERMINATE! or other hilarious stuff. As shown in Dalek, Daleks are actually surprisingly conversant and hearing the screeching voice just mock the Doctor mercilessly while the Daleks hurt him would be something chilling to hear and see.

[Stark]

Don't forget manipulating him and others while taking cheap shots at superior morality. And that guy was just some random guy!

[TC Pilot]

The execution wasn't great, but the basic idea that a handful of Daleks needed to build an army in order to conquer even 1930's Earth is more consistent with their old depiction than the invincible loner in Dalek.

I don't think they were trying to conquer Earth in the Manhatten arc, but rather were just using all those meatbags for their retarded hybrid project.

Dalek might be "wankish" in comparison to the older portrayals, but keep in mind one of the most over-quoted lines of the last five series' is "We would destroy the Cybermen with one Dalek!"

The silliness in Journey's End was more due to the DoctorDonna stupidity than the Daleks themselves. We've seen them manhandled when disabled lots of times. Seeing the Doctor carelessly bash an armed Dalek with a pipe was stupid, but so was making them out to be some god like threat.

Except Journey's End still stuck to the whole "OMG Daleks = we're doomed!" routine. They conquer Earth in like a minute, their plan is to blow up the whole universe, every one of the spin-off cameos reacts to the Daleks in the same pants-shitting way. I don't deny that the DoctorDonna was incredibly stupid, but the only reason it existed at all was because the Daleks completely WTFPWN everything else that RTD has to pull some nonsensical deus ex machina out of nowhere (only this time he did it completely wrong, as oppossed to, say, Parting of the Ways).

[Shroom Man 777]

Don't forget manipulating him and others while taking cheap shots at superior morality. And that guy was just some random guy!

Seriously. Having them stalk the Doctor around, construing situations just to have the Doctor intervene in his high-falooting attempts at being so awesome, and suddenly the Daleks come and utterly shit on it and just point at him with their plungers and LAUGH! Have the Doctor surrounded by Daleks, and the Daleks just LAUGH at him! That'd be really great. The Doctor probably can't even construe some moralistic bullshit about how wiping them out is justified if all the Daleks do is just manipulate the situation, help the bad guys of episode XYZ fuck with the Doctor, and just do their shit for the sake of tormenting the Doctor (instead of blowing up the universe) and just that! In a way, the Daleks could be doing this because the Doctor deserves it - or that's what they'd say, at least. We know the Daleks have talked shit at the Doctor, even the Doctor's pollen-induced dream alter ego does it to him, so why no have the Daleks do this? It'd be the bestest thing ever!

In the end, the culmination of this could be the Dalek feeding the Doctor some chilly con carne made from the extracted remains of his lost companion or something, and as the Doctor begins to weep at this horrific realization, the Daleks will totally lick the Doctor's tears off his face - SAVORING IT! While going WE EXTERMINATED YOUR COMPANIONS! WE EXTERMINATED YOUR COMPANIONS! YOU CONSUMED YOUR COMPANIONS! HA-HA-HAAAAAAA!

Like Cartman from that South Park episode Scott Tenorman Must Die.

[Eternal_Freedom]

THAT would be truly hilarious. I think the whole idea of the Daleks shifting from uber-wank super villains to manipulative dudes stalking the Doctor but not directly fighting him is truly brilliant.

After all, the Supreme said they were a "new Paradigm" - so why not thave them act totally differently?

[Big Orange]

The lone Dalek in "Dalek" seemed so awsome since it was going against private security contractors in a decomissioned military bunker in 2012, but it was going to lose easily against an enraged Doctor brandishing an antique alien blaster - the main strength in "Dalek" derived from the Doctor's rage against the Daleks and the Time War, and the surving Dalek's own wrecked emotional state, rather than the zaps and explosions. "Victory of the Dalek"'s one good point is the Doctor's realisation that he'll never destroy the Daleks for good, no matter how awful their defeats and losses are.

Anyway here's an interesting fanmade online comic book about a Dalek civil war, rendered with CGI stills:

Second Empire

[Eternal_Freedom]

I read that, the Second Empire comic thing. It's pretty good.