True size of the Clone Army

[recon20011]

I'm really not trying to defend the 3 million number, I'm just wondering if you could interpret the "2%" statement as a definition of quality rather than quantity.
For quantity though could you presume that the GAR is the offensive arm of the Republic military and that 3 million was its bayonet strength. Because the GAR would barely be able to provide the manpower to give every governor a regiment, even if only sectors had governors, because there are a thousand sectors each with 2300 troopers, which means they need 2.3 million troopers as garrisons. And also 3 million doesn't seem at all large enough to capture a single world. Even the Earth today couldn't be captured by an army of 3 million because more than half that army would be logistics and support, not combat units.

[Magister Militum]

I'm really not trying to defend the 3 million number, I'm just wondering if you could interpret the "2%" statement as a definition of quality rather than quantity.

Even if you go down the quality route it wouldn't work. 3 million, like you mentioned, wouldn't be enough to take a major world, and the Clone Wars spanned millions of worlds. While the GAR could have served as the offensive arm of the Republic military, leaving defense and such to planetary defense forces until they could be relieved, it would have to be much larger in order to be viable.

[recon20011]

I'm really not trying to defend the 3 million number, I'm just wondering if you could interpret the "2%" statement as a definition of quality rather than quantity.

Even if you go down the quality route it wouldn't work. 3 million, like you mentioned, wouldn't be enough to take a major world, and the Clone Wars spanned millions of worlds. While the GAR could have served as the offensive arm of the Republic military, leaving defense and such to planetary defense forces until they could be relieved, it would have to be much larger in order to be viable.

I know it still doesnt work. Neither do the numbers for a Sector Army. I'm not sure anyone can really define the numbers of troops needed to pacify a single world, let alone a sector (roughly 1,000 main worlds per sector is you go by the 1 million main worlds and 1,000 sectors numbers). Its sort of beyond our comprehension in a way. And I don't really buy their quad formation command structure either. It requires too many staffs and commanders. You can only go so high without having officers outnumber enlisted almost.

[PainRack]

Even if you go down the quality route it wouldn't work. 3 million, like you mentioned, wouldn't be enough to take a major world, and the Clone Wars spanned millions of worlds. While the GAR could have served as the offensive arm of the Republic military, leaving defense and such to planetary defense forces until they could be relieved, it would have to be much larger in order to be viable.

Story wise, the Clone Army is attacking worlds with tens and hundred of thousand of troops. Additional support in the form of non clone armies for garrison purposes probably make up the shortfall, however, even thematically wise, 3 million is too small to sustain combat operations the multitude of clone stories have spawned. Especially with their casualty rates.

So, even if we were to go down the analysis from a pure canon and story route, the numbers won't work. And frankly, I never understood how the fans could go so far in defending the number to the extent of butchering the story. Isn't it supposed to be the OTHER way around?

[PainRack]

I'm pretty sure 2% of the human population would outnumber 3 million clones rather significantly.

It is things like this that remind me just How totally CLUELESS Traviss is about numbers, and more how she 'perceives' numbers. I am sure she thinks "2%" thats tiny, you could never get an army from 2% of the population!"

Well when your population is Trillions upon Trillions of candidates, 2% adds up VERY fast,

It gets better. Militaries nowadays expect to get 1% of their population to volunteer to join the military.

[lord Martiya]

I'm really not trying to defend the 3 million number, I'm just wondering if you could interpret the "2%" statement as a definition of quality rather than quantity.
For quantity though could you presume that the GAR is the offensive arm of the Republic military and that 3 million was its bayonet strength. Because the GAR would barely be able to provide the manpower to give every governor a regiment, even if only sectors had governors, because there are a thousand sectors each with 2300 troopers, which means they need 2.3 million troopers as garrisons. And also 3 million doesn't seem at all large enough to capture a single world. Even the Earth today couldn't be captured by an army of 3 million because more than half that army would be logistics and support, not combat units.

Well, I know one thing: during WWI, Italy alone mobilized FOUR million soldiers in the army alone. Yes, a little European country in WWI deployed an army outnumbering the GAR, and wasn't the army with the greatest numbers. Face it, the only way the 3 million units number can be defended is by considering it the number of DIVISIONS of the GAR at the start of the war.

[recon20011]

I'm really not trying to defend the 3 million number, I'm just wondering if you could interpret the "2%" statement as a definition of quality rather than quantity.
For quantity though could you presume that the GAR is the offensive arm of the Republic military and that 3 million was its bayonet strength. Because the GAR would barely be able to provide the manpower to give every governor a regiment, even if only sectors had governors, because there are a thousand sectors each with 2300 troopers, which means they need 2.3 million troopers as garrisons. And also 3 million doesn't seem at all large enough to capture a single world. Even the Earth today couldn't be captured by an army of 3 million because more than half that army would be logistics and support, not combat units.

Well, I know one thing: during WWI, Italy alone mobilized FOUR million soldiers in the army alone. Yes, a little European country in WWI deployed an army outnumbering the GAR, and wasn't the army with the greatest numbers. Face it, the only way the 3 million units number can be defended is by considering it the number of DIVISIONS of the GAR at the start of the war.

And we know how well the Italians did on the Isonzo. But yes, I know and fully understand that point. Even if you assumed three million bayonets (not literally bayonets, the number of frontline riflemen, ignoring all other personnel) that still isn't enough.
Three million divisions though... out of curiosity would that be 3 million battalions? Three million regiments? Legions? Or take your pick? I'm not sure which it would be but I'd guess regiments, which would give you 6,912,000,000 soldiers.
Alternately, 3 million brigades/legions (9216 men) would give you 27,648,000,000 soldiers (roughly 27.6 billion).
Those numbers still seem small though... especially if you figure each minor planet could probably conscript at least 4 million men, using Italy as a basis for comparison. Using WEG's 50 million minor planets/colonies/protectorates figure (if you dislike it then give me another number to use) gives you approximately 200,000,000,000,000 conscripts (200 trillion).
I don't know if that comes close though.

[General Mung Beans]

Maybe "units" mean armies or even planetary army groups.

[recon20011]

Maybe "units" mean armies or even planetary army groups.

Possibly. Even so 9 trillion clones doesn't sound like an awful lot when drafting 1% of the population of secondary worlds (protectorates/colonies/etc) would net you 200 trillion conscripts. Although if we applied the statement about the clones being optimized and only 2% of the population can match them, and we assumed population means typical military personnel, then the clones would actually be better than the top 2%, which would be the top 40 trillion.
And assuming that at least one percent of the population was recruited, that also doesn't take into account production of battle droids. Which when I think about it means that the "quadrillions" of battle droids Traviss had as mere propaganda in her books could actually be a reality. Especially since the term "battle droid" could probably be applied to every single automated foot soldier (B1, B2, B3) and every single automated vehicle/fighter.
Does anyone know what production for droids was?

Corps= 36,864 clones. Three million corps=110,592,000,000 (110.6 billion)
Sector Army=147,456 clones. Three million sector armies=442,368,000,000 (442 billion)
System Army=294,912 clones. Three million system armies= 884,736,000,000 (884 billion)
Grand Army=2,949,120 clones. Three million grand armies=8,847,360,000,000 (8.8 trillion)

data from Wookieepedia

[Captain Seafort]

Corps= 36,864 clones. Three million corps=110,592,000,000 (110.6 billion)
Sector Army=147,456 clones. Three million sector armies=442,368,000,000 (442 billion)
System Army=294,912 clones. Three million system armies= 884,736,000,000 (884 billion)
Grand Army=2,949,120 clones. Three million grand armies=8,847,360,000,000 (8.8 trillion)

data from Wookieepedia

I wouldn't use those figures for unit strength. They don't match either the battalions seen at the end of AoTC or the statement in AotC ICS that Acclamators carry 16,000-strong divisions. Moreover, the breakdown deals purely with the combined strength of the infantry sections within the GAR - adding HQ strength, fire support, armour, medical, equipment support, logistics, engineers and half a hundred other things will vastly increase the total strength. For example, a modern UK Armoured Division has about 1500 men in its rifle sections, out of a total strength of over 16,000

[recon20011]

Corps= 36,864 clones. Three million corps=110,592,000,000 (110.6 billion)
Sector Army=147,456 clones. Three million sector armies=442,368,000,000 (442 billion)
System Army=294,912 clones. Three million system armies= 884,736,000,000 (884 billion)
Grand Army=2,949,120 clones. Three million grand armies=8,847,360,000,000 (8.8 trillion)

data from Wookieepedia

I wouldn't use those figures for unit strength. They don't match either the battalions seen at the end of AoTC or the statement in AotC ICS that Acclamators carry 16,000-strong divisions. Moreover, the breakdown deals purely with the combined strength of the infantry sections within the GAR - adding HQ strength, fire support, armour, medical, equipment support, logistics, engineers and half a hundred other things will vastly increase the total strength. For example, a modern UK Armoured Division has about 1500 men in its rifle sections, out of a total strength of over 16,000

I know those figures don't match up exactly. I did do the math out somewhere on for a sample order of battle using ships as the basis, and then using the given carrying capacity of the ships.

Alright then. A flotilla of Venators carries:
1 walker battalion (presumably AT-TEs, they seem to be everywhere) (72 walkers)
120 gunships (maybe 10 squadrons of 12 each? It divides itself better now, 5 squadrons to each regiment)
2 infantry regiments (5,300 troopers)

That seems a bit gunship-heavy to me. But then again, I suppose they are the reaction force.

Now that you've brought Acclamators up though, I'm curious to see how 3 [url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acclamat ... sault_ship]Acclamators compare.

Walkers:
144 AT-TEs which equals 2 armored battalions (72 each).
108 SPHA walkers which equals 3 artillery battalions of 6 batteries each with 6 guns. (3*6*6=108) (Yes, I had to get away from the 4x4 organization for this one, but for some reason artillery tends to congregate in batteries of 6 guns each, and the numbers didn't seem to want to fit using a 4x4 organizational scheme.)
Gunships:
240 gunships in 20 squadrons of 12 each.
Scout bikes:
960 bikes. Going to steal from the Imperial order of battle: 5 bikes per squad. That means there are 192 scout squads, with 4 per platoon for 48 platoons. With 4 platoons per company that gives us 12 companies. 4 companies per battalion leaves us with 3 reconnaissance battalions.
Troops:
48,000 berths available for troopers and support crews. Since it worked so well in the Venators, where each regiment filled approximately 3,000 berths, including support personnel (tank drivers, gunners, LAAT pilots, etc) I'm going to use that here as well. 48,000 berths fits 16 regiments of infantry. That is one whole legion/brigade.

I'm going to make an assumption: If this is how many of each unit that a flotilla of Acclamators can carry, then wouldn't it make sense to assume that this is the standard make-up of a Brigade?
2 armored battalions
3 artillery battalions
20 gunship squadrons
3 reconnaissance battalions
16 infantry regiments
plus support troops

I didn't add medical, logistics, engineers, etc specifically.

Additionally, how many riflemen would there be in an infantry division? I'm assuming it would be far more than in an armored division. Although not too many more, if they mix armored and mechanized units at the battalion, brigade, and division levels, which is what combined arms is all about after all.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Corps= 36,864 clones. Three million corps=110,592,000,000 (110.6 billion)
Sector Army=147,456 clones. Three million sector armies=442,368,000,000 (442 billion)
System Army=294,912 clones. Three million system armies= 884,736,000,000 (884 billion)
Grand Army=2,949,120 clones. Three million grand armies=8,847,360,000,000 (8.8 trillion)

data from Wookieepedia

The quotation was 200k initial units and a million more incoming.

So the initial batch would be:
If Companies- 28.8 million troops
If Battalions- 115.2 million troops
If Regiments- 460.8 million troops
If Legions- 1.8432 billion troops
If Corps- 7.3728 billion troops
If Sector Armies- 29.4912 billion troops
If Systems Armies- 58.9824 billion troops
If Grand Armies- 600 billion troops

Total would be:
Companies- 172.8 million troops
Battalions- 691.2 million troops
Regiments- 2.7648 billion troops
Legions- 11.0952 billion troops
Corps- 44.2368 billion troops
Sector Armies- 176.9472 billion troops
Systems Armies- 353.8944 billion troops
Grand Armies- 3.6 trillion troops

That's only from Kamino and doesn't include GeNode and other sources of clones.

[Iosef Cross]

I'm really not trying to defend the 3 million number, I'm just wondering if you could interpret the "2%" statement as a definition of quality rather than quantity.
For quantity though could you presume that the GAR is the offensive arm of the Republic military and that 3 million was its bayonet strength. Because the GAR would barely be able to provide the manpower to give every governor a regiment, even if only sectors had governors, because there are a thousand sectors each with 2300 troopers, which means they need 2.3 million troopers as garrisons. And also 3 million doesn't seem at all large enough to capture a single world. Even the Earth today couldn't be captured by an army of 3 million because more than half that army would be logistics and support, not combat units.

To capture earth today using ground warfare and today's technology would require around 400 million troops, maybe more.

[General Mung Beans]

Could Kamino itself actually support trillions or even hundreds of billions of clone troopers? Because it's largely water-covered and the billion Kaminoans would be hard pressed to oversee the training of three trillion soldiers. Or did Kamino have some of the cloning done offplanet?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Could Kamino itself actually support trillions or even hundreds of billions of clone troopers? Because it's largely water-covered and the billion Kaminoans would be hard pressed to oversee the training of three trillion soldiers. Or did Kamino have some of the cloning done offplanet?

Because the Kaminoans have access to sufficiently advanced technology that they should be more than capable of aquatic habitats. In addition, the Kaminoans didn't oversee their training it was Mandalorian *spit* instructors who did that.

[Rama]

Plus weren't the later batches flash trained?

[recon20011]

The quotation was 200k initial units and a million more incoming.

So the initial batch would be:
If Companies- 28.8 million troops
If Battalions- 115.2 million troops
If Regiments- 460.8 million troops
If Legions- 1.8432 billion troops
If Corps- 7.3728 billion troops
If Sector Armies- 29.4912 billion troops
If Systems Armies- 58.9824 billion troops
If Grand Armies- 600 billion troops

Total would be:
Companies- 172.8 million troops
Battalions- 691.2 million troops
Regiments- 2.7648 billion troops
Legions- 11.0952 billion troops
Corps- 44.2368 billion troops
Sector Armies- 176.9472 billion troops
Systems Armies- 353.8944 billion troops
Grand Armies- 3.6 trillion troops

That's only from Kamino and doesn't include GeNode and other sources of clones.

That is still not a lot of troops. If you figure that you need 400 million soldiers to invade the Earth today then an army of 3.6 trillion soldiers can only capture 9,000 Earth-equivalents. And after every invasion, successful or not, you have lost some of your overall power.

[Ritterin Sophia]

That is still not a lot of troops. If you figure that you need 400 million soldiers to invade the Earth today then an army of 3.6 trillion soldiers can only capture 9,000 Earth-equivalents. And after every invasion, successful or not, you have lost some of your overall power.

Can you read? I ask because I specifically said that only includes from Kamino and not the state run cloning facilities of GeNode or other contracted jobs. Given that we never hear tell of how many 'units' GeNode or Spaarti Creations or what have you made I can't reasonably speculate on those.

[General Mung Beans]

Could Kamino itself actually support trillions or even hundreds of billions of clone troopers? Because it's largely water-covered and the billion Kaminoans would be hard pressed to oversee the training of three trillion soldiers. Or did Kamino have some of the cloning done offplanet?

Because the Kaminoans have access to sufficiently advanced technology that they should be more than capable of aquatic habitats. In addition, the Kaminoans didn't oversee their training it was Mandalorian *spit* instructors who did that.

How many Mandalorians were in existence especially after the Mandalorian Civil War? There probably were other instructors too IMO.

[Ritterin Sophia]

How many Mandalorians were in existence especially after the Mandalorian Civil War?

IF you mean True Mandalorians, enough to populate a single planet or two, not a lot from a society that controlled an entire sector of space that is now under the control of the Republic-backed New Mandalorians.

There probably were other instructors too IMO.

If there were we never see or hear of them.