Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

[Thanas]

I don't have a problem with the German law, but the only thing I've heard so far that is in clear superiority to the US system is the fact that a lawyers career isn't measured by his wins but by time in service. The lack of discretion appears to be overwhelming the system so they offer an out for those that they can't guarantee a conviction, and their officers might be engaged in under the table illegal discretionary use and everybody looks the other way because they know they are overwhelmed.

You are wrong - the system is not overwhelmed no matter how hard you try to pretend otherwise. The article you used did not even make a single comprehensive statistic as to how many cases are dropped, what their relationship to other cases is, when they are dropped, why they are dropped etc.

To claim that the system is overwhelmed and discretion is somehow exercised despite the fact that clearly it is not is intellectual dishonesty. Heck, if you want to argue the system is overwhelmed, I very much would like you to cite some statistics that support that.

Meanwhile, here is the official statistic of all German crimes:



Notice the statistic on the upper lift. It mentions number of cases and percentage of solved cases. How is that an overwhelmed system, pray tell? The number of crimes stays more or less the same, but the number of solved crimes has been rising.

And that includes all the stuff I mentioned before.

I'm sorry, Thanas. I know you've explained that the article I posted is wrong but you haven't backed up your explanation.

That is nice, seeing how you declined to have the laws cited to you. Then you go claim now that I haven't backed up my explanation when you in fact declined to hear the arguments backing it.

The problem is the conclusion of the article makes sense from a common sense perspective. That officers do not want to ticket their friends and family, and that a forced no discretionary system creates a massive caseload.

Common sense is a very poor legal argument. It is furthermore stupid. You do not know the variables of the German system, so having your common sense and ignorance applied to it is just stupid.

Due to our labor laws our police are paid overtime when they spend time in court during their non-duty hours. So, it is likely that the adoption of the German system would inflate costs here.

Does submitting a written report to the prosecutor and going to the DA to clear things up also count as overtime? Because the first one is how almost all cases are handled.

Nobody is saying it is legal discretion.

I am sorry, but discretion is a pretty legal term. If you do not want to use it, then call it what it is: Unlawful use of power to secure a legal advantage for others, or in other words favoritism or corruption.

No offense, but it seems you're misunderstanding culture. It seems to me that the system in Germany might not be working as intended but that is due to them being overwhelmed. In the US, your social circle is very important. There's such things as the FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act) and other things which are in law and an employer must give time off to someone that qualifies. Thus, it is our culture to give breaks to our family members and friends.

Do you think we do not have an FMLA or other stuff as well in Germany? Heck, under our law you are entitled to full pay to visit a sick spouse for as long as several months, even if it means you'll not work or only work parttime. Don't you go around suggesting that stuff is not done in Germany, which btw. developed a social system that is still superior to the American system in the 1900s. Heck, we even had socialized medicine back then - something you still lack, btw. So do not go the route of "in the USA family is more important" because that is just BS.

Ok. I just wanted to make sure you understood what you're fighting against right now. There is a legitimate reason why a police officer would not want to ticket someone in their social circle. Do you have to like it? No, but that doesn't take away from that.

It is not a legitimate reason from this German's point of view.

[Thanas]

In the end, all of this comes down to one issue:

Are cops entitled to give one group of people with certain characteristics (namely: married or related to cops) legal favors which they otherwise would not receive that much?


I would argue not. The law is supposed to be enforced equally. Equality of the law is the most important aspect of it. For otherwise, we are a class society.

[stormthebeaches]

I said it once before and I shall say it again. The only way to stop cops using discretion to give breaks to friends and family members is to abolish the whole system of descretion.

[ArmorPierce]

Wasn't it a New Jersey Police commissioner that went on record stating that if they are searching for drugs, they will search for black people and if they are searching for bikers they would search for white people (he got into a lot of trouble for this). If a liberal state such as nj has this problem, I am not surprised if plenty of other places did.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Wasn't it a New Jersey Police commissioner that went on record stating that if they are searching for drugs, they will search for black people and if they are searching for bikers they would search for white people (he got into a lot of trouble for this). If a liberal state such as nj has this problem, I am not surprised if plenty of other places did.

Um...

Exactly what parts of New Jersey do you associate with that you consider the state to be 'liberal'? I mean, compared to the black-bleeding heart of the Deep South, perhaps, but most of Jersey isn't exactly all that liberal.

[ArmorPierce]

Well I meant liberal compared to other states such as the red states.

[lance]

Wasn't it a New Jersey Police commissioner that went on record stating that if they are searching for drugs, they will search for black people and if they are searching for bikers they would search for white people (he got into a lot of trouble for this). If a liberal state such as nj has this problem, I am not surprised if plenty of other places did.

That is the most idiotic thing I ever heard.
It was more like 'If they are looking for Marijuana then they would pull over blacks, and if they for looking for meth/cocaine(not sure which) then they would search bikers.'

[The Yosemite Bear]

hell these day if your searching for pot, just look at anyone over 60.

[ArmorPierce]

Do explain lance.

I am also having trouble finding the exact quote. It was many many years ago that it occurred, I believe it was in the late 90s or early 00s.

[The Yosemite Bear]

ever since the Hells Angels were charged with gang rape of a small group of female minors, back in the 1950s, they raised the money for the sucessful defense of their "Brothers" by selling amphetamines. Currently the 1% ers are the biggest suppliers of Meth, they also sell a lot of coke and pot too.

[Kuroji]

It helps nothing that meth is basically the easiest drug to make that I've ever seen. Dangerous, sure, but easy enough that we've got junkies out here who've made it successfully in their kitchen sink. They only blow up their trailers once in a while...

[Spoonist]

First some line by line answers.

What's the reverse take?

You remove the choice of the officer. This is in the consitution of several european countries. Everybody from cops/prosecutors/judges/etc do not have the level of discretion that you are used to in your system. It is regulated by law and enforced by other agencies.
Mind you, it is not perfect, but that is the legal culture.

The officer on a traffic stop removes himself from the traffic stop and takes no action.

Nope. The officer doesn't have a choice and must issue the ticket. Since there is no discretion and no leeway it doesn't matter if you know them. Since there is no judgement call you can not implement your bias.

Do you actually have any evidence that this system is more efficient that the US system?

If you had read the whole paragraph through in one go before dissecting it into pieces you'd see that I made no such claims. As I said I simply explained how the arguments goes in the debate around here.
Now if I'd actually give an opinion on this I'd say that giving discretion to cops/prosecutors/judges/ect should be more effecient since it should reduce the number of cases in court.But if we take such an argument to its extreme then not handling any crime would make the system even more "effecient". Something which would be stupid. So what we should be looking at would of course not be effeciency in that regard but how such discretion is handled and how that affects both enforcing the law and the effects of that enforcement.

Which is unrealistic, and if you believe that they are actually impassionate ticket writing machines then I think you would probably be surprised with reality.

Again this unnecessary strawman. You are not making sense. First your assumption must ignore grammar, "We would like" denotes a wishful thinking.
Second. If your strawman was true and I really thought they where impassionate machines then increasing their power of discretion wouldn't be an issue, now would it? Because they would be able to impliment it fairly and consistently. Equal before the law etc. However it is precisely because officers are humans to that several countries has removed their power of discretion. This because discretion has lead to abuse in the past and it seems that regulating it has lead to less such abuse.

I'd love to hear that US law enforcement briefing.

Given your defensiveness in this thread alone I'd say that it would only piss you off. It was lots of legalise, making comparisons between EU law and US law, almost never to the benefit of the US. Mind you it was created by a US law firm specializing in US-europe trade. (With a little bit of travel stuff sprinkled on top because of 911).

Who would complain though? Last time I checked people who are given breaks do not complain, but I guess there is always a first.

Grammar nazis? No really. Just like there are people who wants us to follow grammar law there are plenty of people who wants the letter of the law to be followed as well. Then I'd say journalists, this kind of stuff makes it into euro papers all the time. Combine the two you could even get a cash incentive, the grammar nazi selling the story to a journalist. Another thing which isn't common but happens enough that its not rare either are other cops. Jupp that's right, sometimes the uncorrupted cops nail the corrupted ones, its not popular but it happens.
Now your ignorance shows prejudice for the current reality you are in.

Over here you don't have that level of personal choice so getting away with such stuff is harder and thus its less likely to happen. Its the wording of the discretion law and its implementation that is different. Because our culture is different it effects how our officers enforce the law.
Why do you even try to argue against that? Do you really think that our officers, regardless of culture, acts just like you?

Your officers are human. I think humans will give their loved ones and friends breaks for minor things.

This is just bonkers. You in no way show any understanding of what I'm saying. Which was why I gave you the Beverly Hills Cop example:

But you are still misunderstanding the impact of culture, especially between two different systems. Take the plot idea for Beverly Hills Cop and multiply that by some magnitudes. Humans are social creatures, we overrule our instincts every single day to fit into our culture. Cops are no different.

No offense, but it seems you're misunderstanding culture. It seems to me that the system in Germany might not be working as intended but that is due to them being overwhelmed. In the US, your social circle is very important. There's such things as the FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act) and other things which are in law and an employer must give time off to someone that qualifies. Thus, it is our culture to give breaks to our family members and friends.

Your reply is just ignoring what you are replying to.
Do you even agree that different countries have different levels of corruption?
Given your example of giving kin a break, this universal human nature can in Somalia mean getting away with murder, while in the US getting away from a speeding ticket. Do you see the difference?

Now mind you this says nothing of discretion vs mandatory ruling. Italy, like Germany, has mandatory ruling in its constitution & laws, yet the Italian police force is 'known' to be corrupt while the German isn't.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You are wrong - the system is not overwhelmed no matter how hard you try to pretend otherwise. The article you used did not even make a single comprehensive statistic as to how many cases are dropped, what their relationship to other cases is, when they are dropped, why they are dropped etc.

That's true. It did not. I'll concede the matter.

That is nice, seeing how you declined to have the laws cited to you. Then you go claim now that I haven't backed up my explanation when you in fact declined to hear the arguments backing it.

That wasn't me. Thanks for providing that information though. That was super of you.

Common sense is a very poor legal argument. It is furthermore stupid. You do not know the variables of the German system, so having your common sense and ignorance applied to it is just stupid.

Actually, I'm talking about my experiences as a human being and my experiences with other human beings that tend to favor their own. Though I've never actually met a German.

Does submitting a written report to the prosecutor and going to the DA to clear things up also count as overtime? Because the first one is how almost all cases are handled.

Anything that is done on our non-duty hours is overtime.

I am sorry, but discretion is a pretty legal term. If you do not want to use it, then call it what it is: Unlawful use of power to secure a legal advantage for others, or in other words favoritism or corruption.

Yes, I already admitted earlier that illegal use of discretion would be corruption.

Do you think we do not have an FMLA or other stuff as well in Germany?

What do you think? I posted a reply earlier to this exact question prior to you posting. The very least you could do is avoid asking repeat questions.

Heck, under our law you are entitled to full pay to visit a sick spouse for as long as several months, even if it means you'll not work or only work parttime. Don't you go around suggesting that stuff is not done in Germany, which btw. developed a social system that is still superior to the American system in the 1900s. Heck, we even had socialized medicine back then - something you still lack, btw. So do not go the route of "in the USA family is more important" because that is just BS.

That's awesome.

It is not a legitimate reason from this German's point of view.

It is from my point of view.

[Kamakazie Sith]

In the end, all of this comes down to one issue:

Are cops entitled to give one group of people with certain characteristics (namely: married or related to cops) legal favors which they otherwise would not receive that much?

I would argue not. The law is supposed to be enforced equally. Equality of the law is the most important aspect of it. For otherwise, we are a class society.

I have argued that they are entitled for reasons already stated in this thread. A quick recap...

Full discretion is available to officers for traffic violations.

Judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, jury members are allowed to step away from a case if they are personally involved. Police officers are doing pretty much the same thing.

The emotional stress added to an officers life if he would be required to take action against a person in their social circle, especially when discretion exists. Removing discretion would fix this problem...

If me giving someone a break because I feel like being nice is a valid reason to others here, or me not making an arrest for marijuana because I don't support the drug war is a valid reason then me not ticketing a member within my social circle is also a valid reason if not more so than the marijuana example.

There's no way to regulate it besides creating strict enforcement where people do not get breaks. The German system was designed to work with that. The US system is not.

[Serafina]

Judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, jury members are allowed to step away from a case if they are personally involved. Police officers are doing pretty much the same thing.

No, that's not comparable.

A court trial has time to be prepared. If someone (judge, lawyer etc.) says "i do not want to participate", then you can easily replace him.
However, this is NOT the case when a police officer stops someone for speedig etc. If he just walks away, there is no one to replace him (of course, if there is another cop, then he can write the ticket etc.)

Of course you are not forced to testify against familty members in Germany. I am also damn sure that no judge would have to judge a trial against, say, his wife or daughter. Propably not even against a good friend.

But as i said - that's not comparable to stopping someone for speeding and letting him get away.

[Kamakazie Sith]

First some line by line answers. You remove the choice of the officer. This is in the consitution of several european countries. Everybody from cops/prosecutors/judges/etc do not have the level of discretion that you are used to in your system. It is regulated by law and enforced by other agencies.
Mind you, it is not perfect, but that is the legal culture.

Well, you know what they say. No system is perfect.

Anyway, since those systems are designed without the use of discretion and are all policed by other agencys nobody in their right mind would show favortism to someone in their social circle.

Nope. The officer doesn't have a choice and must issue the ticket. Since there is no discretion and no leeway it doesn't matter if you know them. Since there is no judgement call you can not implement your bias.

Well, I'm more curious to how it is enforced. I understand the design of the system. It isn't clear how it is enforced.

If you had read the whole paragraph through in one go before dissecting it into pieces you'd see that I made no such claims. As I said I simply explained how the arguments goes in the debate around here.

Ok

Given your defensiveness in this thread alone I'd say that it would only piss you off. It was lots of legalise, making comparisons between EU law and US law, almost never to the benefit of the US. Mind you it was created by a US law firm specializing in US-europe trade. (With a little bit of travel stuff sprinkled on top because of 911).

Huh. If it makes a difference I haven't been pissed off in this thread. I think you're reading into things a bit much... However, it sounds like it is much longer than you can adequately explain and is ultimately off topic.

]Grammar nazis? No really. Just like there are people who wants us to follow grammar law there are plenty of people who wants the letter of the law to be followed as well. Then I'd say journalists, this kind of stuff makes it into euro papers all the time. Combine the two you could even get a cash incentive, the grammar nazi selling the story to a journalist. Another thing which isn't common but happens enough that its not rare either are other cops. Jupp that's right, sometimes the uncorrupted cops nail the corrupted ones, its not popular but it happens.
Now your ignorance shows prejudice for the current reality you are in.

Interesting. In the United States as a cop you can get tagged with a complaint for many things. However, giving someone a break is not one of them.

This is just bonkers. You in no way show any understanding of what I'm saying. Which was why I gave you the Beverly Hills Cop example:

I hated Beverly Hills Cop and only watched the first few minutes. Sorry. However, I understand what you're saying. What you were failing to do is convince me that your officers couldn't get away with it if they did. I want to know how it is enforced....

]Your reply is just ignoring what you are replying to.
Do you even agree that different countries have different levels of corruption?
Given your example of giving kin a break, this universal human nature can in Somalia mean getting away with murder, while in the US getting away from a speeding ticket. Do you see the difference?

Sure, I understand that. See above for what information you didn't provide which kept the door open for the whole human factor.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, jury members are allowed to step away from a case if they are personally involved. Police officers are doing pretty much the same thing.

No, that's not comparable.

A court trial has time to be prepared. If someone (judge, lawyer etc.) says "i do not want to participate", then you can easily replace him.
However, this is NOT the case when a police officer stops someone for speedig etc. If he just walks away, there is no one to replace him (of course, if there is another cop, then he can write the ticket etc.)

Of course you are not forced to testify against familty members in Germany. I am also damn sure that no judge would have to judge a trial against, say, his wife or daughter. Propably not even against a good friend.

But as i said - that's not comparable to stopping someone for speeding and letting him get away.

I disagree. The fact that a replacement isn't possible is simply of greater reason for the officer to not take action as it becomes an entirely personal matter for that officer. It puts that officer in a very uncomfortable position. Furthermore, do you know what happens when you fight a traffic citation in the United States? The officer who cited you will be subpoena and will have to testify against you. That would work out great if it were personal...under the US system it is a waste of time and resources.

[Thanas]

That wasn't me. Thanks for providing that information though. That was super of you.

My apologies, got you and SVPD mixed up.

Actually, I'm talking about my experiences as a human being and my experiences with other human beings that tend to favor their own. Though I've never actually met a German.

They tend to favor their own. The point of the system is trying to eliminate that instead of accepting it as a necessary flaw because in our perspective it should not be a necessary one.

Does submitting a written report to the prosecutor and going to the DA to clear things up also count as overtime? Because the first one is how almost all cases are handled.

Anything that is done on our non-duty hours is overtime.

Yeah, same thing here. But don't your duty hours allow for submitting reports to the DA?

I disagree. The fact that a replacement isn't possible is simply of greater reason for the officer to not take action as it becomes an entirely personal matter for that officer. It puts that officer in a very uncomfortable position.

Well, from my point of view officers should just have to take that. They are members of the community who command a great deal of respect and get special provisions others do not, so IMO they should be able to deal with personal discomfort.

Furthermore, do you know what happens when you fight a traffic citation in the United States? The officer who cited you will be subpoena and will have to testify against you. That would work out great if it were personal...under the US system it is a waste of time and resources.

The same thing happens over here, though usually all the cop has to do is to submit a sworn statement.

I hated Beverly Hills Cop and only watched the first few minutes. Sorry. However, I understand what you're saying. What you were failing to do is convince me that your officers couldn't get away with it if they did. I want to know how it is enforced....

Well, for example in Germany some traffic violations (like speeding) are caught on camera and handled by a separate municipal department. That said, police cars in Germany have a camera as well and policemen never ride alone.

So the only way this would go down the way you envisioned it would be if the officer talks his partner into breaking the law and then either manipulates the camera recording (nearly impossible, especially without expert knowledge) or hopes nobody ever checks on the footage (also doubtful because the files are logged in case somebody decides to fight a citation). Now, if anybody ever found out something like this happened, the two guys would be up shit creek. Especially if the guy they let off brags about that or an accident happens as a result of them letting him off. Every department would gladly sell those guys down the river.

[Spoonist]

Just a small reminder that we differ vs the germans in that our officers do have discretion as I mentioned before. Just not on the level that you do.

Well, I'm more curious to how it is enforced. I understand the design of the system. It isn't clear how it is enforced.
I hated Beverly Hills Cop and only watched the first few minutes. Sorry. However, I understand what you're saying. What you were failing to do is convince me that your officers couldn't get away with it if they did. I want to know how it is enforced....

Given your example of giving kin a break, this universal human nature can in Somalia mean getting away with murder, while in the US getting away from a speeding ticket. Do you see the difference?

Sure, I understand that. See above for what information you didn't provide which kept the door open for the whole human factor.

Back to where we started. What you don't seem to get is why I brought up culture or the significance of my examples. Culture overrules human nature.
Why would that be relevant you ask? Simply because if the majority of the people and cops think this is the proper way to handle things then stuff like giving speeding tickets to kin of colleagues is no biggie. Regardless of whether or how its being enforced. Now again we got other issues so its not like we are better people, we just have a different culture resulting in different set of morals.
So if one cop would demand of another that he would not ticket his wife over here, that would be an asshole and he would be treated as such by his colleagues. Just like an asshole who take kickbacks. It would also not be ignored by the chief. But rather stomped out. Now in smallville where everone knows everyone that does happen and every now and then they get disciplined for it. But for the majority of our officers that wouldn't even be considered. So your implied human nature do happen but our culture overrides that so such things would be rare.
Mind you what we do get is cops having problems nailing other cops for bigger things, like domestic violence, driving drunk, using excessive force and such because that could get a colleague fired. That is a big cultural flaw in our force.
So how its being enforced isn't really interesting because usually it doesn't have to be enforced. Just like in the anti-example of Italy. But if you really want to know then over here police are always patrolling two and two. So you should never be alone. If they start doing an action they report in so that the 'office' knows they are busy. Its usual to report in what level of crime as well so if a high prio comes along you can abort and go for that instead. So already there to not give a ticket, you'd have to convince your partner, misreport it to the office, or lie to your chief.
Though I wish we would have the car-cameras that germany or some US branches uses, that we don't have yet.

Now here is a great summery of why I think this americanism is so strange:

My real problem in this thread has been the corruption accusation.

Fair enough. Breaking the law is corruption.

Yeah and why the fuck did I just spend half an hour explaining to you why the article is seriously wrong in those respects if you just chose to ignore it? IT IS NOT DISCRETION.

Nobody is saying it is legal discretion.

I know that US judges and prosecutors have their discretion in the legal system. But when I think about it I have not seen any reference to any law where officers do. Still its so ingrained in your system that almost all officers think its their prerogative. Thus making it true because no prosecutor or judge would ever touch such a case.

[Kamakazie Sith]

My apologies, got you and SVPD mixed up.

They tend to favor their own. The point of the system is trying to eliminate that instead of accepting it as a necessary flaw because in our perspective it should not be a necessary one.

No problem.

Yeah, same thing here. But don't your duty hours allow for submitting reports to the DA?

We're required to submit all reports at the end of shift. Those reports are approved by a supervisor and then forwarded to the appropriate division (larcency, robbery, etc) who will review and determine if followup is needed or if there is enough information to submit a packet to the DA or City Prosecutor Office. Then the prosecutor or DA will review and have the final say if charges will go forward.

Well, from my point of view officers should just have to take that. They are members of the community who command a great deal of respect and get special provisions others do not, so IMO they should be able to deal with personal discomfort.

I think you underestimate personal discomfort. It can have significant impacts on the well being of the officer. If judges, prosecutors, and jury members weren't allowed to excuse themself then I would have less ground to stand on, but the argument can also be made that they to "should" be able to deal with personal discomfort and be seen as objective.

Again, the most significant issue is that under the laws of the United States you have a right to confront the witness and ask questions. An officer would be forced to testify against that person.

The same thing happens over here, though usually all the cop has to do is to submit a sworn statement.

That works...sometimes...for witnesses but hardly ever for the officer. The defense will demand to be able to cross examine the officer even in something as minor as a traffic violation no matter how solid the case is, and it is the defendants right to do so.

Well, for example in Germany some traffic violations (like speeding) are caught on camera and handled by a separate municipal department. That said, police cars in Germany have a camera as well and policemen never ride alone.

So the only way this would go down the way you envisioned it would be if the officer talks his partner into breaking the law and then either manipulates the camera recording (nearly impossible, especially without expert knowledge) or hopes nobody ever checks on the footage (also doubtful because the files are logged in case somebody decides to fight a citation). Now, if anybody ever found out something like this happened, the two guys would be up shit creek. Especially if the guy they let off brags about that or an accident happens as a result of them letting him off. Every department would gladly sell those guys down the river.

That clarifies a whole lot. I ride alone in my patrol car, and traffic enforcement is carried out by lone officers in the US.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Back to where we started. What you don't seem to get is why I brought up culture or the significance of my examples. Culture overrules human nature.

I understand what you're saying. I didn't understand how it was enforced. If it isn't enforced then human nature will always win out...at least that's been my experience.

Why would that be relevant you ask? Simply because if the majority of the people and cops think this is the proper way to handle things then stuff like giving speeding tickets to kin of colleagues is no biggie. Regardless of whether or how its being enforced. Now again we got other issues so its not like we are better people, we just have a different culture resulting in different set of morals.
So if one cop would demand of another that he would not ticket his wife over here, that would be an asshole and he would be treated as such by his colleagues. Just like an asshole who take kickbacks. It would also not be ignored by the chief. But rather stomped out. Now in smallville where everone knows everyone that does happen and every now and then they get disciplined for it. But for the majority of our officers that wouldn't even be considered. So your implied human nature do happen but our culture overrides that so such things would be
rare.

The coworker problem is just one small issue, and is frankly the smallest. The biggest issue is with people in your own social circle. Like giving your wife a ticket. How do you stomp that out?

Mind you what we do get is cops having problems nailing other cops for bigger things, like domestic violence, driving drunk, using excessive force and such because that could get a colleague fired. That is a big cultural flaw in our force.

Those problems exist in US police, but they are absolutely illegal. We're required to immediately notify a supervisor if we are dealing with a situation involving a police officer for those offenses you mentioned. Failure to do so will result in termination.

So how its being enforced isn't really interesting because usually it doesn't have to be enforced. Just like in the anti-example of Italy. But if you really want to know then over here police are always patrolling two and two. So you should never be alone. If they start doing an action they report in so that the 'office' knows they are busy. Its usual to report in what level of crime as well so if a high prio comes along you can abort and go for that instead. So already there to not give a ticket, you'd have to convince your partner, misreport it to the office, or lie to your chief.
Though I wish we would have the car-cameras that germany or some US branches uses, that we don't have yet.

It sounds like it is strictly enforced through multiple means in Germany. Your partner, the vehicle camera, and other recording devices.

Now here is a great summery of why I think this americanism is so strange:

My real problem in this thread has been the corruption accusation.

Fair enough. Breaking the law is corruption.

Yeah and why the fuck did I just spend half an hour explaining to you why the article is seriously wrong in those respects if you just chose to ignore it? IT IS NOT DISCRETION.

Nobody is saying it is legal discretion.

I know that US judges and prosecutors have their discretion in the legal system. But when I think about it I have not seen any reference to any law where officers do. Still its so ingrained in your system that almost all officers think its their prerogative. Thus making it true because no prosecutor or judge would ever touch such a case.

I'm sorry I'm not following you. Why is americanism so strange? Those quotes of mine aren't in context. In one I'm talking about the US system and in the other I'm refering to a foreign system where discretion is not allowed.

I'll get back to you on the reference. I think it is apart of state law and department policy. Basically in my state police SHALL arrest when they have probable cause for felony. In the case of a misdemeanor they can arrest, release on citation, or issue a warning.

[Alphawolf55]

But that makes me wonder, when a cop tells me or someone else "Don't take it personal I'm just doing my job" if it's something he has discertion over, isn't it kind of personal at that point?

Edit: Just asking because I kind of want to know what goes through a cops mind when they pull someone over for minor things.

[fgalkin]

Here is what I don't understand: why is discretion even an issue here? Surely, the point of discretion is that it is based on the offence, not the offender? Why should somebody get off because he's related to a cop? If anything, he should be punished HARSHER, since they ought to know better.

By the way, I am not related to a police officer, and yet I have 3 of the cards in question, from various colleagues with police connections. I don't use them, since I believe that the law actually applies to everyone equally. *shrug*

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Just for a laugh I should go tell my friend that his family is corrupt because he was given free (roughly $4000 value) Lasik eye surgery at Hoopes vision.

Is his family the owners of Hoopes vision? Because if it's not, I'd say that was a pretty clear-cut case of corruption.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Thanas]

I think you underestimate personal discomfort. It can have significant impacts on the well being of the officer. If judges, prosecutors, and jury members weren't allowed to excuse themself then I would have less ground to stand on, but the argument can also be made that they to "should" be able to deal with personal discomfort and be seen as objective.

Jury members are not the same because they are members of the public with no special training. Judges and prosecutors are allowed to recuse themselves because the things they are asked to do have a larger impact on the life of the persons in question than writing a ticket.

And quite frankly, anybody who can't handle punishing his friends when they break the law is probably not best suited to the job anyway. C'mon, we are talking about parking tickets and speeding fines here, not jail time. And any friend who faults you for doing your job and severs connections due to a speeding ticket is probably not worth having in the first place.

That works...sometimes...for witnesses but hardly ever for the officer. The defense will demand to be able to cross examine the officer even in something as minor as a traffic violation no matter how solid the case is, and it is the defendants right to do so.

How many times have you been asked to testify in court on a traffic violation?