Moderator: Thanas
Eh, most of my TW fighting has basically been waiting for the enemy to assault my position...Xenophon13 wrote: WWI would fail because the battles would suck and take forever, but WWII could be doable, because warfare had become offensive again.
Those games don't show that it can work. WW1 and WW2 operate on vast scales, scales that are totally inappropriate for a "Total War" style game. The TW series has already been stretching credibility with its small-enough-to-be-manageable army sizes on the tactical map since the beginning (all armies are too small), there's no way you can have the level of detail present in those two titles on a scale where the battle could possibly have meaningful strategic results.Like I said, play Theatre of War or Combat Mission before saying outright "it can't be done". It most certainly can be, by a competent team of guys. Basically anyone not CA.
I'll second this. For any sort of gaming, the period from the end of the Medieval era until roughly the American Revolution or Napoleonic era seems to be a dead zone.Thanas wrote:No, not really. I'd be much more happier with a decent renaissance title.Stofsk wrote:You just want Rome 2 don't you.
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
It's been one of my basic assumptions here at IGN that there is no such thing as the "perfect" game. No matter how ambitious a designer's ideas might be, they will eventually encounter the limitations imposed by time, money or technology. While the results of working within these limitations can often be sublime, there's not a designer in this industry that hasn't wished for just a little bit more of whatever it would take to make their game better. Some of you might see that way of thinking as a reason to despair but I see it as a fundamental expression of hope and limitless potential for the PC development environment. It is, in my opinion, a fundamental belief for any fan of PC games.
It's also a worthwhile motivation for Creative Assembly to apply ten years of experience and growth to the father of its celebrated strategy series, Shogun: Total War. IGN recently visited Creative Assembly's studio and were able to speak with principal members of the design team about their vision for the new title and its place in the evolution of the franchise.
Like its processor, the new game picks up in 16th century Japan during the aftermath of the Onin War. The battles between rival Shoguns have devastated the country and left the capital of Kyoto in ruins. Competing warlords in control of small pockets of power are each striving to obtain the blessing of the central emperor and legitimize their rule of the entire land. The player takes on the role of one of eight of these warlords, each with a unique starting position and different political and military strengths. Some may be located on remote islands that are rich in resources but far from opportunities. Others might be in the thick of the action immediately and able to use unique samurai units to carve out a more secure portion.
As a setting, feudal Japan satisfies all the Total War requirements. It's a period with lots of competitors who all have an equal chance of coming out on top. It's a period of rapid political and technological change, thanks in no small part to the Dutch and Portuguese bringing gunpowder to the island. Finally, the samurai who dominate this period offer a perfect blend of the best parts of fantasy and reality.
After the excesses of Empire, Shogun 2 is taking a Zen approach. Though the word "accessible" is often code for "plain," in the case of Shogun 2, it's clear that the designers want to maintain a tighter focus on the core elements and not give in to feature creep. The unit roster is a great example of this. Rather than massive roster of units found in Empire, Shogun sticks with just 30-40 basic units (20 or so per faction), each of which has a clear and obvious purpose. This should give the player a chance to focus more on tactics than on the slight variations between similar unit types. If you need to keep an enemy at bay, for instance, you'll know to call on your Ashigaru spearman. To help add a bit of variety, units will upgrade over time.
The scale is also different in terms of the presentation of the story. Empire was a game about a global war. Shogun 2 is about eight warring fiefdoms. So if Shogun 2 won't have the epic geographic scale of Empire, it will have to compensate by emphasizing character and story. During its time in Europe (through Medieval, Rome and Empire), Total War has gradually shed some of the narrative that provided context for the battles and campaigns. Shogun 2 will focus directly on the daimyo, or clan leaders, like Takeda Shingun or Chosokabe Motochika. Instead of being the impersonal force guiding the destiny of your faction, you'll actually play as a person who has to negotiate the treacheries and loyalties of family politics, which can sometimes be as deadly a battlefield as any you can find. Your generals will also be more important this time around, not just due to the return of their pre-battle speeches, but also because you can choose which upgrades they get as they develop. It makes it much easier to get attached to them than the sometimes random characters you've recruited in previous Total War games.
One particularly novel development is the introduction of hero units. These are warriors who have perfected a fighting art and can carve their way through enemy armies without much trouble at all. Based on mythologized historical figures like the warrior monk Benkei, hero units are a nearly unstoppable force on the battlefield, capable of holding bridge crossings against entire armies, or smashing through a battle line to engage the enemy general. You can counter heroes with the right tactics, such as filling them full of arrows, or by having your own hero units engage them in duels. The development team may even consider letting players use political manipulation to sway heroes away from each other.
The unique nature of Asian architecture has a profound impact on sieges. The stacked pagoda structures of Japan allow sieges to play out in stages, with attackers and defenders moving from wall to wall and from tower to tower. This gives both sides of a battle more options than simply waiting for a hole to appear in the outer defenses and then just cramming as many men as possible around it. Each castle will have five levels of construction as well, so there's an increasing level of choice and sophistication as you advance. What's even more intriguing is the team's suggestion that castles will have unique qualities based on whether they're built in the mountains, on the plains, or by the sea.
Even with all the new siege mechanics, Creative Assembly is striving to ensure that the game delivers the full range of battle types, from small scale ambushes and river crossings to huge battles in open fields. The hilly nature of Japan means chokepoints abound, so players will have to consider maneuver and position very carefully as they make their way towards objectives.
The naval battles that were introduced in Empire are also being brought into Shogun 2. Boats during this period were a bit like floating castles, so you can expect to see lots of archers firing at each other from the tops, and lots of melees when enemy ships grapple with each other. The big difference this time around is that the ships are oared, so you won't have to worry about the wind affecting their momentum. If you want a ship to move to a particular spot, you just have to issue the order and it's done. Land will also be present during the naval battles, not as a contestable space, but as a means of orienting players. The ships themselves will have unique roles and levels of aggression, so there's a rock-paper-scissors element to fighting at sea.
The game's AI is being programmed according to Sun Tzu's Art of War. As one of the core foundations for this kind of mix of melee and ranged warfare, Sun Tzu is an obvious starting point, but what was particularly revealing is how much Sun Tzu talks like a programmer. If, for example, you outnumber the enemy more than five-to-one, Sun Tzu recommends an enveloping move. If you outnumber the enemy two-to-one, he prefers a direct engagement.
As intriguing as the mechanics of the game are, Creative Assembly also acknowledge that the overall art design is probably more central to the success of this game than any other in the series. The art team has been inspired by all of the conventional icons of the land and the wide range of seasons and weather will help add variety to the battles. You may, for instance, find yourself fighting in the same province during the spring as cherry blossoms drift by, and then come back for a battle as layers of snow sit on the land in winter. The team is reintroducing nighttime battles to the game, and we saw a spectacular example of a castle assault during a thunderstorm at night. The way the lightning cracked in the distance and lit up the trees and soldiers as rain collected in puddles around them was phenomenal. The ranks of soldiers, all outfitted in distinctive primary colors and sporting battle flags on their backs, looked better than any we've seen in the franchise.
Battle animations are superb. The units in Shogun 2 have a total of 52 different bones, which is a nearly 25% increase over those in previous Total War games. This allows for much more natural and realistic animations, which incidentally, were captured using the British Kendo Association and actual bushido fighters. Samurai were known for their strong, flexible armor and for their mastery of multiple weapons like the katana and nodachi. During our demo, we saw two ranks of katana samurai battling with each other and it looked even better than the thrilling combat in Empire. Add in support for up to 56,000 units in a single battle, and it's clear to see just how ambitious Shogun 2 really is.
To further add to the authenticity, the team is also using all the original weapons on the original materials for the sound effects. They've even gone so far as to record the sounds of the historical footwear of each unit type walking and running on all the types of terrain represented in the game.
At this pre-alpha stage, it's far too early for Creative Assembly to talk more specifically about the game, but we're already hungry for more details. We know that there will be an entirely new agent set in the game, one that uses a rock-paper-scissors mechanic, but we don't know what that means in practice. We've also been told that the team has some ambitious multiplayer ideas, but they're not willing to even hint what those might be. Whatever the case, the first look was more than enough to whet our appetite for more information. You can be sure that IGN will continue to delve into the details of Shogun 2: Total War in the coming months.
This is nothing new. Super Samurai is something that is present in the first Shogun Total war game.spaceviking wrote:I have to say the early news on Shogun two worries me. The idea of single heroic character decimating entire armies doesn’t seem to fit with the total war franchise; this seems like samurai wank taking precedents over game play. What’s next medieval three with wizards, dragons and competent Middle Eastern infantry
Hrm...Add in support for up to 56,000 units in a single battle, and it's clear to see just how ambitious Shogun 2 really is.
Indeed. It wasn't quite at the point of one man taking out an entire 20-stack army, but I've had 4 kensai rout a 16-stack army (and lose 1 kensai), while 2 units of 12 ninja were able to rout a large army with 5 casualties.ray245 wrote:This is nothing new. Super Samurai is something that is present in the first Shogun Total war game.spaceviking wrote:I have to say the early news on Shogun two worries me. The idea of single heroic character decimating entire armies doesn’t seem to fit with the total war franchise; this seems like samurai wank taking precedents over game play. What’s next medieval three with wizards, dragons and competent Middle Eastern infantry
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
Vympel wrote:I didn't read the whole article until you quoted that bit right now. That means 28,000 individual men per army in a battle. If they're using the old 20-piece stack system, that means 1,400 men per unit. I doubt it'll work that way though.
With the benefit of hindsight there's no reason why they need end up the way they did in reality. You could utilise all the "defence in depth" and whatnot right away in 1914 with just a little bit of real historical knowledge.Xenophon13 wrote:WWI would fail because the battles would suck and take forever, but WWII could be doable, because warfare had become offensive again.
In their former press releases for one of their previous games (I think it might have been Medieval II), I think they used a large figure too, but that figure was the theoretical maximum of having full 20 stacks, huge sized armies from all 8 factions (or however many factions that can fit onto one battlefield). So if we take 8 factions to be the maximum and 20 units in each army, that works out to 350 men per unit, which is not altogether very large.Vympel wrote:Yeah, you're definitely right. If it was anything other than bullshit marketing speak, they'd tell you how many units you could expect to see in a classic 1 v 1 battle with two full stacks of 20 units each.
It is really easy to up that number via the settings, all you have to do is modify the txt file. IIRC I have seen somebody already using units of 500+ men.Vympel wrote:Its over a 100% improvement though. In Empire your largest units (Line Infantry?) are what, 160 men? I can't remember if I've got my settings to maximum or not.
