Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[Oskuro]

Well, you know Stark, civilians are a renewable resource after all.

[Stark]

Israel needs to maintain its ability to prevent aid reaching brown oeople. They had to make an example to stop aid escalating!

[MKSheppard]

Fun fact; there's another ship enroute to try and run the blockade. It's name?

M/V Rachel Corrie.

The IDF is confident that their amphibious airdroppable D9 dozer will be able to deal with this new attempt.

[MKSheppard]

Can we all invent baseless numbers or is that just a Shep thing?

Baseless numbers? I simply took the general amount of palestinians who died or were wounded in CAST LEAD -- and multiplied that number by 1.5x; since any CAST LEAD II inevitably would be bigger and nastier than the first one.

Even if you just accept CAST LEAD with no adjustments as the baseline for another Gaza War; between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians died in it (depending on whether it was IDF counting or the PCHR).

[Zed]

So your point is that, unless Israel commits atrocities now, it'll commit greater atrocities later?

[Shroom Man 777]

In Shep's world butching civilians and ensuring a violent response is saving lives.

By 'lives' he means 'Israeli hegemony'.

Eventually, the various methods being used to render the Israeli/Egyptian Blockade (bet you didn't know about the Egyptians being involved too); politically untenable; such as this convoy; will succeed if current trends continue the way they are.

This will mean that HAMASstan will have all the supplies it can get to build rockets which can strike southern Israel -- fun fact, in the aid that Israel lets through -- tin cans are banned; as is food packaged in tin cans -- because HAMAS will simply use the metal in them to build rockets with which to threaten Israel.

Fast forward a couple years, and CAST LEAD II kicks off after some nice rocket attacks on Israeli towns -- something a mere 50% bloodier than CAST LEAD would be 1,800 palestinian deaths of all types (Civilian and HAMAS); and 7,500 wounded of all types.

So yes, killing a couple dozen to a hundred people in escalation is worth it.

Can we all invent baseless numbers or is that just a Shep thing?

Baseless numbers? I simply took the general amount of palestinians who died or were wounded in CAST LEAD -- and multiplied that number by 1.5x; since any CAST LEAD II inevitably would be bigger and nastier than the first one.

Even if you just accept CAST LEAD with no adjustments as the baseline for another Gaza War; between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians died in it (depending on whether it was IDF counting or the PCHR).

So Israel kills or shoots up some civilians in Turkish/Greek boats to prevent... Israel from killing or shooting up some civilians in Palestine? That's awesome logic. Maybe Israel should also kill or shoot up Israel to prevent Israel from killing or shooting up some civilians in Turkish/Greek boats to prevent Israel from killing or shooting up some civilians in Palestine? If Israel didn't want to have to kill civilians in Palestine, obviously killing or shooting up Israel will be more effective than just some civilians in Turkish/Greek boats. The effects will be much more direct, efficient and observable. Yeah, Israel should just kill or shoot up Israel, since Israel's the one doing all the shooting anyway, not some civilians in Turkish/Greek boats, so Israel would have more reason to kill or shoot up Israel if it wanted to prevent civilian casualties.

So your point is that, unless Israel commits atrocities now, it'll commit greater atrocities later?

Israel should see that committing atrocities on other people's civilians isn't working right, as seen in the graphs. Israel should try committing atrocities to Israel instead and see how it turns out. Maybe it'll be more effective.

[Serafina]

Fun fact:
Members of the european parliament (both german, IIRC) were onboard these ships.
They are now hostages prisoners along with everyone else who was on the convoy.

Hmm, i wonder how long it'll take for Isreal that holding foreign officials prisoners is not a good political move.

Edit:
Apparently, three german members of the european parliament were on board the turkish ship (that one under attack).

So, Shep would have killed foreign politicans in cold blood, too

[Shroom Man 777]

What? You've got to be shitting me. Why would European government officials be on those boats?

[Elfdart]

In Shep's world butching civilians and ensuring a violent response is saving lives.

By 'lives' he means 'Israeli hegemony'.

Eventually, the various methods being used to render the Israeli/Egyptian Blockade (bet you didn't know about the Egyptians being involved too); politically untenable; such as this convoy; will succeed if current trends continue the way they are.

This will mean that HAMASstan will have all the supplies it can get to build rockets which can strike southern Israel -- fun fact, in the aid that Israel lets through -- tin cans are banned; as is food packaged in tin cans -- because HAMAS will simply use the metal in them to build rockets with which to threaten Israel.

Guess what, peckerhead: Israel already allows canned food into Gaza. So they're not concerned about scrap metal being used as shrapnel. Look at the list of items that are banned. The items banned either allow people to grow their own food or they allow them to build and repair their own homes. So no, it's not fear of concrete bunkers since plaster and lumber are also banned. It's purely about starving Palestinian civilians and exposing them to the elements.

Fast forward a couple years, and CAST LEAD II kicks off after some nice rocket attacks on Israeli towns -- something a mere 50% bloodier than CAST LEAD would be 1,800 palestinian deaths of all types (Civilian and HAMAS); and 7,500 wounded of all types.

So yes, killing a couple dozen to a hundred people in escalation is worth it.

But hey guys on ships being boarded in international waters fought back... if it happened off the Somali coast he'd be saying they were heroes.

I like how Israeli troopers carrying out board/search/seizure operations under a national flag on ships trying to run a declared blockade is somehow equivalent to a bunch of pirates attacking shipping at random off the Horn of Africa.

You're right. Killing one group of civilians so they can more effectively starve another group of civilians is MUCH worse than extorting money from shipping companies.

[Serafina]

What? You've got to be shitting me. Why would European government officials be on those boats?

Because it was intended as a humanitary aids convoy?
Note that they were not sent there by the goverment, they went there on their own.

Really, the notion that they wanted to smuggle weapons or anything in there is absurd. Virtually every german news article is heavily bashing Isreal, accusing them of lying and waging war against the palestinan population now.
Which is quite notable, because german newspaper are normally quite reluctant to say anything too negative about Isreal (it shouldn't be hard to guess why).

[Zed]

Members of European Parliament were included precisely to stop Israel from responding violently.

Apparently, it didn't work.

[Darth Hoth]

Was Sheppard ever arguing that shooting the ship to Fuck-All would a politically opportune thing to do, or just The Right Thing to do, for the military commander in charge?

I agree with the latter, not the former.

A question from someone not as well versed in maritime law as are many others in the board's readership: Would it have been illegal for Israel to have mined the waters around Gaza to deter blockade runners? Just delivering a warning to the peace activists beforehand if they felt nice, "You are now entering a minefield. Proceed at your own peril. This is your first, last, and only warning." and not having to shoot them at all? Because that looks like it would have been a smoother solution to me, assuming that it is technically and legally feasible. Instead of giving the international left-wingers as much ammunition as they have now, it would have made the "Gaza Freedom" idiots look even more like idiots, knowingly and premeditatedly plowing ahead at full ahead into the mines.

[Zed]

You're thinking that mining the sea isn't going to give anti-Israeli activists propaganda ammunition?

[Darth Hoth]

Not as much. Mining is a passive defense, and if they warned about it beforehand, no one could move into the mined zone and blame anything but their own stupidity if they were blown up. It would make Israel less of an "aggressor" than shooting violent peace activist on a ship does.

[Serafina]

A question from someone not as well versed in maritime law as are many others in the board's readership: Would it have been illegal for Israel to have mined the waters around Gaza to deter blockade runners? Just delivering a warning to the peace activists beforehand if they felt nice, "You are now entering a minefield. Proceed at your own peril. This is your first, last, and only warning." and not having to shoot them at all? Because that looks like it would have been a smoother solution to me, assuming that it is technically and legally feasible. Instead of giving the international left-wingers as much ammunition as they have now, it would have made the "Gaza Freedom" idiots look even more like idiots, knowingly and premeditatedly plowing ahead at full ahead into the mines.

If you are enforcing a legal blockade, mines are legal IIRC.

While that might have prevented what happened now, it would still be a lot of propaganda fodder. Even more so, since it would clearly indicate that they do not want anything to get in there - that they want to starve the palenstinans to death.

Plus, laying mine fields in the Mediterranean Sea would be seen quite negatively regardless of intent.

[Oskuro]

Considering the pain in the ass that mines are worldwide, I guess it would be politically difficult to justify a minefield.

As for "The Right Thing To Do", if the situation was that the civilians on the boats suddenly produced AKs and RPGs and went full force aganist the soldiers, I would agree that opening fire to get the men out would be acceptable. It is even understandable for the soldiers on the deck to use their weapons to defend aganist the assault. Mowing down people armed with clubs from an adjacent ship, on the other hand, is not.

[Darth Hoth]

While that might have prevented what happened now, it would still be a lot of propaganda fodder. Even more so, since it would clearly indicate that they do not want anything to get in there - that they want to starve the palenstinans to death.

There would be no real basis for that. As others have mentioned already, they let transports through, and for this convoy they offered to make their own harbours available for them to ship the aide over land from there. It is not that they keep everything out, only that they want control over what goes in, and whom receives it. Keeping Gaza's harbour open is not necessary for keeping the people supplied.

Not that the media would care about that, of course, so your point is still valid.

[cosmicalstorm]

What? You've got to be shitting me. Why would European government officials be on those boats?

They are from the same group of politicians who spent their time up until the mid 80's demanding that we cut our bands to the US and instead fused our trade and economy to the USSR zone.

[Serafina]

While that might have prevented what happened now, it would still be a lot of propaganda fodder. Even more so, since it would clearly indicate that they do not want anything to get in there - that they want to starve the palenstinans to death.

There would be no real basis for that. As others have mentioned already, they let transports through, and for this convoy they offered to make their own harbours available for them to ship the aide over land from there. It is not that they keep everything out, only that they want control over what goes in, and whom receives it. Keeping Gaza's harbour open is not necessary for keeping the people supplied.

Not that the media would care about that, of course, so your point is still valid.

Well, yes, it's how the media and public perveive it what counts.

However, one can already argue that they do this - after all, the supplies allowed to pass are hardly sufficient and do not include anything that would allow them an economy (such as not allowing lifestock or seeds, while mean and flour are allowed).
Right now, they can justify this by saying "well, we have to make sure that hamas doesn't get any materials to build weapons" or "well, we want to prevent hamas from claiming all the resources" - a minefield would possibly destroy such flimsy justifications.

[Darth Hoth]

Considering the pain in the ass that mines are worldwide, I guess it would be politically difficult to justify a minefield.

As for "The Right Thing To Do", if the situation was that the civilians on the boats suddenly produced AKs and RPGs and went full force aganist the soldiers, I would agree that opening fire to get the men out would be acceptable. It is even understandable for the soldiers on the deck to use their weapons to defend aganist the assault. Mowing down people armed with clubs from an adjacent ship, on the other hand, is not.

If the people are clearly belligerent and have already injured several of your men, as a military commander I would find it not only acceptable, but morally ordained that you order the use of overwhelming force to subdue them, rather than escalating in piddly steps and getting more of them killed. The priority is the survival of your own men, not that of the enemy. And by assaulting your search and seizure party with deadly force, they have shown themselves to be just that. Moreover, not fighting in uniform or under responsible command, they are not legal combatants, and do not deserve even the minimum of consideration that is due to enemy soldiers in war.

Now, political constraints made this a less than optimum option in this case, and naturally it was not made use of. Was it wise of whoever commanded not to go Colonel Shepilov on the violent pacifists? Entirely so. Would doing so have been the moral thing to do? Equally beyond doubt.

[Tiriol]

What? You've got to be shitting me. Why would European government officials be on those boats?

They are from the same group of politicians who spent their time up until the mid 80's demanding that we cut our bands to the US and instead fused our trade and economy to the USSR zone.

You have evidence of this?

[Serafina]

What? You've got to be shitting me. Why would European government officials be on those boats?

They are from the same group of politicians who spent their time up until the mid 80's demanding that we cut our bands to the US and instead fused our trade and economy to the USSR zone.

That may be the case - i know that these politicans are affiliated with the Linkspartei, but that doesn't mean that they were ever part of that group.

Either way, they are democratically elected representatives of european citizens.
Oh, and several other famous people were also on board the convoy and are now held as hostages prisoners.

[Zed]

They're also under communications blackout, as I understand it.

[wautd]

It'll be interesting to see the US government's reaction to this crisis; their reaction to the last one (the announcement of the expansion of Israeli settlements in east Jerusalem during Netanyahu's visit to Washington D.C.) was decidedly not pro-Israel in the least, so there's hope for stern words from Obama yet.

I can tell you exactly what Uncle Sam's reaction will be. He will get on his knees, jaws agape, waiting for a hot, sticky facial from Israel. How do I know this? The same way I know the sun will set in the west this evening: that's what it has always done before and there's no reason to think this time will be any different.

Yup, guess which country wanted an objective, transparant impartial inquiry... but should be handeled internally by Israel?

They're also under communications blackout, as I understand it.

We don't even know who and how many there are dead right now. Going by todays newspaper, of the 5 belgians that were on the ships, 2 are still missing.

[wautd]

double