Most Intelligible and Most Ignorant Creationists

[General Mung Beans]

This includes only people who heavily focus on the evolution/creation debate.

I'd have to say Kent Hovind is the most ignorant considering other Young Earth Creationists have asked their fellows not to use his arguments.

[Channel72]

Jonathan Sarfati seems to be among the most intelligent of the outspoken Young-Earth Creationists. He's highly educated and holds a legitimate PhD in chemistry.

[Temujin]

I wouldn't call any of their arguments intelligent, though one might consider the fact that they actually have some education and try to sound fair and rational (and not like like your stereotypical ignorant Fundy broken record) as an intelligent way of arguing. Either way, they're still dishonest in that they conveniently ignore facts and cherry pick evidence to support their positions.

[Iosef Cross]

This shows that even smart people can be stupid in some areas.

[Gramzamber]

One can be highly educated and still hold a deep personal stupidity, mainly due to personal prejudice preventing them from seeing something reasonably. Or because they just can't admit they could ever be wrong.

I could never see the arguments they use as being intelligent, because they can't be. You might as well call arguing for the existance of pink unicorns intelligent. However much they're educated and however intelligent they are in other fields, they're still arguing in favour of a fairytale.

[wautd]

Regarding intelligent people, I remember a professor being mentioned in The God Delusion who had impressive credentionals but admitted that at the end of the day, despite all the evidence of the contrary, he still believed in YEC. For the sole reason of his fear of hell. (further proof that religious indoctrination is a form of child-abuse).
Don't have the book at hand or I'd look up his name.

I'd have to say Kent Hovind is the most ignorant considering other Young Earth Creationists have asked their fellows not to use his arguments.

Clueless troglodites who copy his arguments are even worse. And we have enough of those on the internets.

I go for Ray "Banana" Comfort and his sidekick Kirk Douglas.

[Shroom Man 777]

Regarding intelligent people, I remember a professor being mentioned in The God Delusion who had impressive credentionals but admitted that at the end of the day, despite all the evidence of the contrary, he still believed in YEC. For the sole reason of his fear of hell. (further proof that religious indoctrination is a form of child-abuse).
Don't have the book at hand or I'd look up his name.

That's the most lovely thing about Christianity. I love how they just drill it into people, from a very young age, that if you don't follow their beliefs then that's a sin punishable by eternal torment in Hell, and how this view becomes a fact to them, an unquestionable part of their reality. It's really wonderful how some these people grow up to become intelligent individuals, but despite reason or logic or thinking, despite their own functional minds, this belief of eternal punishment that's been drilled into their perception of reality makes it impossible for them to question the particulars of their faith, literally paralyzes their hearts and minds with fear and horror. Christianity is truly beautiful.

[Zed]

Edit: deleted (is there a way to delete actual posts?)

[Darth Hoth]

That's the most lovely thing about Christianity. I love how they just drill it into people, from a very young age, that if you don't follow their beliefs then that's a sin punishable by eternal torment in Hell, and how this view becomes a fact to them, an unquestionable part of their reality. It's really wonderful how some these people grow up to become intelligent individuals, but despite reason or logic or thinking, despite their own functional minds, this belief of eternal punishment that's been drilled into their perception of reality makes it impossible for them to question the particulars of their faith, literally paralyzes their hearts and minds with fear and horror. Christianity is truly beautiful.

Not that it is unique to their particular faith . . .

However, if people are raised into a belief, then that at least has a logical explanation. Much harder to understand do I find people who have lived entirely secular lives (as in being atheistic socialists, or the like) till finally they "find God" and instantly convert into full fundie mode.

[Eleas]

Not that it is unique to their particular faith . . .

However, if people are raised into a belief, then that at least has a logical explanation. Much harder to understand do I find people who have lived entirely secular lives (as in being atheistic socialists, or the like) till finally they "find God" and instantly convert into full fundie mode.

It's not all that hard to understand, to me. My grandmother would be an instructive example. This may be rambling and a personal anecdote, but hopefully it'll be illustrative enough.

So, my grandmother. Lived in Stockholm and Uppsala, alternating as was needed. Like her father, was an atheist, and an exceedingly intelligent and strong-willed one. How intelligent? Well, she raised my father, his brother, and their four sisters, as a single mother, while working and studying law (to eventually become judge at the Svea Hovrätt). That sort of thing was not entirely easy during the 1940s, nor was it socially accepted.

But the thing is, a woman born during the 1910:s would have been inundated with Christian culture no matter what she did. Certainly everyone around her would be favourably disposed toward this form of religion. Her husband was also quietly (but intensely) religious, and developed a fear of dying during his last years. After he died, dementia had begun its advance. The only people she could relate to were steeped in the Christian mindset, and many of them were friends through - I'm sure you're seeing where this is going - the church.

Being an intellectual, however, she was also quite argumentative and outspoken. She also lived in Uppsala (which, as many know, isn't exactly wanting for either intellectuals or religious scholars), so she'd gravitate to other intellectuals. And she would find them through the church, because that is perhaps the most far-reaching and comprehensive communications network in Sweden for people in that age bracket. And who would have the most spare time and be the most interested in spending a day or two just talking about metaphysics? Priests, of course.

Given all that, my only surprise is that she didn't convert sooner.

[Darth Hoth]

In that kind of case, it does not surprise me, either. Nor the type when a former ex-Christian turned "soft" atheist (or agnostic, or deist, or whatever) backslides. No, I am talking about young people from the secular environment of the recent decades who have never been to church, have atheist parents, and generally have no reason whatever to even read a Bible, even in school. Additionally, people who are otherwise remarkably logical and rational.

I have a friend like this, I might have mentioned him before. When he went to college, suddenly and for no reason I can fathom, he changed. One day he was just quoting Bible passages and whistling the Battle Hymn of the Republic wherever he went. Yes, it sounds crazy, but is true nevertheless. It was literally from one week to the other. At first, I thought it was a joke.

He did not join any sect or anything. In fact, as far as I can determine he does not attend any Church at all. Only he is now somehow convinced the Bible is the Inerrant Word of God (TM) and the highest absolute moral guide for humanity ever, and everything it says is Divine Truth (TM).

Despite this, he is still an enjoyable and intelligent person to talk with, as long as one avoids all religious subjects. Except for that aspect, his personality is the same. He is still interested in sci-fi, and will even write and play adventures for RPGs.

It is downright scary when one thinks of it.

[General Zod]

In that kind of case, it does not surprise me, either. Nor the type when a former ex-Christian turned "soft" atheist (or agnostic, or deist, or whatever) backslides. No, I am talking about young people from the secular environment of the recent decades who have never been to church, have atheist parents, and generally have no reason whatever to even read a Bible, even in school. Additionally, people who are otherwise remarkably logical and rational.

I have a friend like this, I might have mentioned him before. When he went to college, suddenly and for no reason I can fathom, he changed. One day he was just quoting Bible passages and whistling the Battle Hymn of the Republic wherever he went. Yes, it sounds crazy, but is true nevertheless. It was literally from one week to the other. At first, I thought it was a joke.

He did not join any sect or anything. In fact, as far as I can determine he does not attend any Church at all. Only he is now somehow convinced the Bible is the Inerrant Word of God (TM) and the highest absolute moral guide for humanity ever, and everything it says is Divine Truth (TM).

Despite this, he is still an enjoyable and intelligent person to talk with, as long as one avoids all religious subjects. Except for that aspect, his personality is the same. He is still interested in sci-fi, and will even write and play adventures for RPGs.

It is downright scary when one thinks of it.

Catching someone in an emotionally vulnerable state is a standard tactic for evangelists. Maybe he was going through some emotional turmoil and a religious friend 'invited' him to come check out a service or something. I can see any number of explanations, really.

[Shroom Man 777]

I can tell you, a group of Christians praising and singing and amening and hallelujahing makes for some very emotionally powerful stuff.

[wautd]

Regarding intelligent people, I remember a professor being mentioned in The God Delusion who had impressive credentionals but admitted that at the end of the day, despite all the evidence of the contrary, he still believed in YEC. For the sole reason of his fear of hell. (further proof that religious indoctrination is a form of child-abuse).
Don't have the book at hand or I'd look up his name.

That's the most lovely thing about Christianity. I love how they just drill it into people, from a very young age, that if you don't follow their beliefs then that's a sin punishable by eternal torment in Hell, and how this view becomes a fact to them, an unquestionable part of their reality. It's really wonderful how some these people grow up to become intelligent individuals, but despite reason or logic or thinking, despite their own functional minds, this belief of eternal punishment that's been drilled into their perception of reality makes it impossible for them to question the particulars of their faith, literally paralyzes their hearts and minds with fear and horror. Christianity is truly beautiful.

Sounds like a textbook case of Stockholm-syndrome to me

[Eleas]

I have a friend like this, I might have mentioned him before. When he went to college, suddenly and for no reason I can fathom, he changed. One day he was just quoting Bible passages and whistling the Battle Hymn of the Republic wherever he went. Yes, it sounds crazy, but is true nevertheless. It was literally from one week to the other. At first, I thought it was a joke.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Successful religions capitalize on the same kind of emotional resonance that make books and movies into bestsellers and blockbusters. I'm not at all puzzled that somewhere along the line, the Bible subconsciously made sense to your friend, because we've been selecting for those self-same traits for a good long while now. And it's not just brain chemistry either - religions, too, have been selecting for a very long time, and in a hypercompetitive environment.

So it's not so weird at all, when you think about it.

[General Mung Beans]

Not that it is unique to their particular faith . . .

However, if people are raised into a belief, then that at least has a logical explanation. Much harder to understand do I find people who have lived entirely secular lives (as in being atheistic socialists, or the like) till finally they "find God" and instantly convert into full fundie mode.

It's not all that hard to understand, to me. My grandmother would be an instructive example. This may be rambling and a personal anecdote, but hopefully it'll be illustrative enough.

So, my grandmother. Lived in Stockholm and Uppsala, alternating as was needed. Like her father, was an atheist, and an exceedingly intelligent and strong-willed one. How intelligent? Well, she raised my father, his brother, and their four sisters, as a single mother, while working and studying law (to eventually become judge at the Svea Hovrätt). That sort of thing was not entirely easy during the 1940s, nor was it socially accepted.

But the thing is, a woman born during the 1910:s would have been inundated with Christian culture no matter what she did. Certainly everyone around her would be favourably disposed toward this form of religion. Her husband was also quietly (but intensely) religious, and developed a fear of dying during his last years. After he died, dementia had begun its advance. The only people she could relate to were steeped in the Christian mindset, and many of them were friends through - I'm sure you're seeing where this is going - the church.

Being an intellectual, however, she was also quite argumentative and outspoken. She also lived in Uppsala (which, as many know, isn't exactly wanting for either intellectuals or religious scholars), so she'd gravitate to other intellectuals. And she would find them through the church, because that is perhaps the most far-reaching and comprehensive communications network in Sweden for people in that age bracket. And who would have the most spare time and be the most interested in spending a day or two just talking about metaphysics? Priests, of course.

Given all that, my only surprise is that she didn't convert sooner.

Nitpick: If this is Sweden wouldn't it be the Church of Sweden (which is Lutheran) and thus don't use the Catholic titles of priest?

[Sir Sirius]

Nitpick: If this is Sweden wouldn't it be the Church of Sweden (which is Lutheran) and thus don't use the Catholic titles of priest?

The title used in Sweden is "präst", I'm sure you can see the similarity to "priest".

[Oskuro]

Christianity is truly beautiful.

It is God's most beautiful religion


As for people converting out of the blue, my experience with people who hold irrational beliefs despite their own capcaity for logic always points out at gut instinct. Forgive the little foray into evolutionary psychology I'm about to do, but we're instinctual animals, and as such, feel more comfortable doing what our body commands (be it eating, sleeping, taking a dump, having sex, or responding to pre-programmed fears). Overcoming said impulses is tough in many cases, and a lot of people not only lack the willpower, but don't even have the slightest intention of making an effort to do so.

Of course, religion, as well as politics, knows this, and tailors its message to appeal to base instincts. In young people is easy to understand, religious promises of being special and deserving of reward, as well as the whole defiance of authority implicit in Christ's story, resonate with the natural rebellious tendencies of that age. Notice how often the converted make mention of how Jesus loves them and how special their religion makes them be. For a young adult who is beginning to learn how little he matters in the grand scheme of things, it is an attractive shelter from the harshness of reality.

[PaperJack]

I find Jack Chick hilarious.

[Spoonist]

Nitpick: If this is Sweden wouldn't it be the Church of Sweden (which is Lutheran) and thus don't use the Catholic titles of priest?

I'd say that most of the non-english speaking Lutherans prefer priest derivates. Its mainly some US sects that prefer pastor.

Now for Sweden there are several synonyms for clergy which sometimes give a historical reference to a specific role in the church. All are currently in use with their own specific meaning. Here is their translations:
Präst - priest
Kyrkoherde - churchshepherd (lit)
Pastor - pastor
Biskop - bishop
diakon - deacon
predikant - preacher
prost -honorary title, "prost honoris causa"
kaplan - chaplain
komminister - comminister

[Akhlut]

I can tell you, a group of Christians praising and singing and amening and hallelujahing makes for some very emotionally powerful stuff.

Seconded; as an illustrative anecdote, when I met my father-in-law (who belongs to one of those Christian Power Team gimmicks), I saw one of their shows. In spite of the fact that I could see what showman tricks they were using and what physics 'tricks' they were using to make their displays that much easier, it still took a great deal of rational thought to see through their display. The combination of powerful imagery and emotional atmosphere make it very enticing to want to become part of a community that partakes in that.

[Terralthra]

Sounds like a textbook case of Stockholm-syndrome to me

I'd say that's because you have no idea what Stockholm Syndrome is.