Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[Lonestar]

I said we can't withdraw our support from Isreal without risking massively destabalizing the region, fucknuts. I didn't say that we couldn't try other methods to bring them to heel - I said it wasn't worth it to fucking try.

Why would it "destablize the region"? Israel got along just fine without getting toys from Joe Q. Taxpayer for decades, while facing enemies that were lavishly equipped at-cost by the Russians.

I'm saying that nothing short of the strongest measures stand a chance of working, and I'm too fucking apathetic to the situation to bother with anything less. Let them have at each other. It's no skin off our nose.

Then you do agree that we should turn off the tap.

I said a notion, and foggy. I have the important points down: Arab states and Isreal have repeatedly clashed, in each instance Isreal has survived and pushed back, and usually they come out ahead, and it all tends to end with the rest of the world sitting them down at a table to tell them to behave, please.

It ends with the Israelis doing it without a lot of support from the international world at large. Again, I am not seeing how they would be in a materially worse condition if we stopped handing out free candy to them.

I have no reason to believe that if we withdraw our support, they won't go back to clashing with each other.

Who would? Which countries?

And, of the countries that do NOT have a vested financial interest in the status quo(Egypt, Jordan) why would, say, Syria be willing to go it alone when the correlation of forces was gotten worse for them with the demise fo the USSR?

Rusty Spoon. You get the idea.

Grow up, move out of your Uncle's house, and stop being a deadbeat loser. My skin crawls at the idea of you suckling at society without contributing to it.

Do you really think we wouldn't intervene if, say, it looked as if Tel Aviv was about to fall? I'm quite certain we would, if for no other reason than any President and his party that allowed the Isreali state to be conquered on their watch would be more or less anihilated in the coming election cycle.

The Israelis wouldn't allow it to get that far. We seriously would not have to lift a finger on our part. Israel has nukes, Syria(the only REMOTELY viable enemy in today's world) doesn't.

But since we don't want to have to do that, we'd prefer to give Isreal enough toys that they can curb-stomp anyone who tries on their own.

They were able to curbstomp everyone else BEFORE we gave them free toys, you idiot. You fucking idiot. You retarded man-child. You buffoon. You shitbird. You scallywag. They were able to defeat countries that were lavishly equipped with the best Eastern Bloc equipment money could buy...and those countries didn't have to pay for it. And today, the only country that touches Israel that is anywhere close to the level of firepower is Egypt, but then they actively help the Israelis do COIN in Gaza and are paid a lot of bribe money to not rock the boat by the US. Jordan, likewise, is paid a good chunk of bribe money not to rock the boat by the US.

Yes, but in much the same way a family pet can be technically described as a parasite. We do get something out of it - maybe not material goods and maybe they're not perched on a vital shipping lane, but we still get something out of it.

What?

And a dog loves you unconditionaly and typically is contrite when it realizes it's done something bad. Israel doesn't, and isn't.

Go ahead and enlighten me, then; exactly what the fuck do we get from Egypt besides the Suez canal being open and a warm, fuzzy feeling and a second parasite?

We pay them a rather good sum of money(to be spent on US arms) as bribery to not attack Israel. Egypt also actively helps Israel with COIN in Gaza(as has been pointed out in this very thread, the Gaza blockade was international). The amount of cash we give Egypt is enough that the Egyptian budget would be seriously crippled if we turned off that tap. That is the security arrangement with Egypt.

Really, who gives a flying fuck about Jordan? If they don't go and kick the apple cart over, I doubt very much we'd give a damn one way or another.

Jordan tended to perform the best against israel during the Arab-Israeli wars. Today we give them bribe money to not attack Israel.

Don't you already know?

If you're going to make comments in a thread, at least try to read a book or something on the subject before hand.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Even if that's so, and I don't especially disagree with any of it, of what use is it to business to remain aligned with Israel?

Aircraft are easier to show, but it should be easy to understand why America's most powerful industrial lobbyist groups would support Israel. The first image especially.

but I'm about 90% certain that even the Netanyahu government isn't this amazingly stupid.

But it is telling I gave myself a 10% margin for them being that amazingly stupid.

This is Israel we're talking about, they fired missiles across the bow of a neutral German warship that was supporting the UN peacekeepers in Lebanon for no apparent reason, I'd raise that margin of error substantially.

And just to confirm that Bibi really is chugging stupid pills:

At this point, the easiest way to predict Israeli actions is to assume the Israelis will make the worst possible choice available to them.

[Edi]

ShadowDragon8685, kindly do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up while the adults talk. You have no idea what you're talking about and your empty bluster when confronted with just how much of an ignorant dimwit you are is not even entertaining.

It might be news for you, but certainly not to to anyone else that whenever you open your mouth, invariably what comes out is stupid beyond belief and it is a safe assumption that whatever you might speak on, you are wrong. This leads to the obvious question: Do you ever think before you post? Are you even capable of thinking before you post?

If you intend to keep posting in this thread, you will provide evidence for your claims. If you don't, the forum rules will be enforced against you to their maximum extent.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Dammit I was hoping your or thanas' heads would explode. <jk>

sometimes I reallly hate living in "Interesting Times"

[Axiomatic]

This is totally a blockade designed to prevent terrorist attacks. We can't let Hamas get their hands on NUTMEG AND MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, can we?

[Stark]

Like someone said, it's to allow them goods without allowing them means. They can have meat, but they can't RAISE meat or they'd be too self-sufficient.

[CJvR]

This is totally a blockade designed to prevent terrorist attacks. We can't let Hamas get their hands on NUTMEG AND MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, can we?

Im a bit surprised that the Israelis are OK with fertilizer since it can be used in bombs. Nutmeg have some toxic properties and I suspect the ban on musical instruments has less to do with palis playing Horst Wessel than what parts can be scavanged from those instruments.

[wautd]

Is there a rational reason why newspapers are banned?

[Elfdart]

This is totally a blockade designed to prevent terrorist attacks. We can't let Hamas get their hands on NUTMEG AND MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, can we?

Im a bit surprised that the Israelis are OK with fertilizer since it can be used in bombs.

Depends on the fertilizer. There are alternatives to ammonium nitrate.

Nutmeg have some toxic properties and I suspect the ban on musical instruments has less to do with palis playing Horst Wessel than what parts can be scavanged from those instruments.

Please. They allow canned food and metal cans are perfect for homemade bombs.

Is there a rational reason why newspapers are banned?

No.

[Flagg]

Is there a rational reason why newspapers are banned?

Well if you roll one into a really tight cylinder you can make a pretty good club that a fully armed Israeli soldier wouldn't even feel if you hit him with it.

[Shroom Man 777]

And that would force the Israeli soldier to shoot the newspaper-wielding Palestinian, and CAST HEAD 5 would also end up killing even more Palestinian civilians. That is why it is vitally important to shoot to kill humanitarians in ships full of supplies like newspapers and Pikachus, so Israeli soldiers won't have to shoot the newspaper-wielding Palestinians so CAST HEAD 5 won' end up killing even more Palestinian civilians.

Does this violate international law? Well, you should know that the notion of international law and laws of war have merit only inasmuch as other nations are prepared to wage war to enforce them. This is in fact the root of all law - legitimacy only comes with the power to enforce your so-called legitimacy through violence.

Israel enforces its legitimacy through violence. Israel killing Turks in boats is more violent than Palestinians with newspaper Pikachus, thus the more violent it is the more legitimate it also is. Thus Israel is the most legitimate (because it is more violent). If you disagree, then you must become even more violenter than that, or if not then just shut up.

You might think that this action is viewed as illegal, but who is willing to go to war to enforce it's illegality? Hmmm?

If the Israelis kill a whole boat full of Turks and Greeks, then it has to. Because its highest priority is to protect its own men. Even those on the ship who aren't armed and who aren't fighting are in the same unity as those who fought the Israeli soldiers, so they must also be killed. When Israel makes these civilians bleed, there will be blood in the water and the sharks will come. Israel can feed Palestinians and Turks and Greeks and Uzbekistanis and Mongolians to the great whites, but if no one is willing to go to war to enforce its illegality (Hmmm?), then it is meaningless. Hmmm?

Flagg, would you be willing to sign up if they had a war to stop Israel from feeding Lithuanians to sharks? Would any of us? Would any of us want it, even if we didn't personally suffer a single inconvienance as a result? Hmmm?

[Elfdart]

Peter Beinart elaborates on what I pointed out earlier (the siege is meant to use hunger to bring Gaza into submission) and explains why some items are banned and others aren't. Money quote:

The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations greeted news of the flotilla disaster by repeating a common “pro-Israel” talking point: that Israel only blockades Gaza to prevent Hamas from building rockets that might kill Israeli citizens. If only that were true. In reality, the embargo has a broader and more sinister purpose: to impoverish the people of Gaza, and thus turn them against Hamas. As the Israeli newspaper Haaretz has reported, the Israeli officials in charge of the embargo adhere to what they call a policy of “no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis.” In other words, the embargo must be tight enough to keep the people of Gaza miserable, but not so tight that they starve.

This explains why Israel prevents Gazans from importing, among other things, cilantro, sage, jam, chocolate, French fries, dried fruit, fabrics, notebooks, empty flowerpots and toys, none of which are particularly useful in building Kassam rockets. It’s why Israel bans virtually all exports from Gaza, a policy that has helped to destroy the Strip’s agriculture, contributed to the closing of some 95 percent of its factories, and left more 80 percent of its population dependent on food aid. It’s why Gaza’s fishermen are not allowed to travel more than three miles from the coast, which dramatically reduces their catch. And it’s why Israel prevents Gazan students from studying in the West Bank, a policy recently denounced by 10 winners of the prestigious Israel Prize. There’s a name for all this: collective punishment.

Israel does not deserve all the blame for Gaza’s impoverishment. Gaza’s other neighbor, Egypt, imposes an embargo of its own, though less effectively. And Hamas has been known to confiscate goods meant for Gaza’s poor. But none of that excuses Israel’s role in keeping Gaza destitute. Far from a well-crafted policy, the Gaza embargo has become something you might find in a University of Chicago seminar about the perversions inherent in interfering with free trade. As Haaretz detailed in a remarkable investigative report last summer, the embargo is not merely arbitrary (Gazans can import cinnamon, but not chocolate), it is corrupt. When Israeli farmers have surplus supply, they seek loopholes for the goods they wish to sell. Israeli officials allow Gazans to import Israeli products, but not the materials necessary to make those products themselves, since that would threaten Israel’s hold on the Gazan market. As the Israeli human-rights group Gisha has noted, Gazans can buy Israeli-made tomato paste, but cannot buy the empty cans necessary to preserve and market their own, which would compete with Israeli suppliers.

If all this were actually turning the people of Gaza against Hamas, perhaps—perhaps—it might have a cold-blooded justification. But if there is anything that the U.S. has learned from its half-century long embargo of Cuba, it is that policies of collective punishment don’t turn people against their regimes. To the contrary, they usually offer those regimes an excuse for their inability to govern.

Keep in mind that Beinart is one of Israel's biggest fanboy apologists in the media.

[bobalot]

I always wondered why the Israelis stopped agricultural exports. Now I know why, it's to make a shitload of cash by destroying the agricultural industry of Gaza and dominating the market.

Elfdart's article above took me by surprise, we haven't heard a whisper of this in Australia (or the rest of the industrialised world, I suspect). The media blackout from Gaza seems pretty tight.

[wautd]

Peter Beinart elaborates on what I pointed out earlier (the siege is meant to use hunger to bring Gaza into submission) and explains why some items are banned and others aren't. Money quote:

If all this were actually turning the people of Gaza against Hamas, perhaps—perhaps—it might have a cold-blooded justification. But if there is anything that the U.S. has learned from its half-century long embargo of Cuba, it is that policies of collective punishment don’t turn people against their regimes. To the contrary, they usually offer those regimes an excuse for their inability to govern.

Nevermind that making sure that whole generations grow up with virtual no economy, education and more than enough reasons to hate Israel, they create the perfect breeding ground for terrorism. Hamas Human Recources must have a field day with the influx of daily candidates.

[Rye]

Peter Beinart elaborates on what I pointed out earlier (the siege is meant to use hunger to bring Gaza into submission) and explains why some items are banned and others aren't. Money quote:

The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations greeted news of the flotilla disaster by repeating a common “pro-Israel” talking point: that Israel only blockades Gaza to prevent Hamas from building rockets that might kill Israeli citizens. If only that were true. In reality, the embargo has a broader and more sinister purpose: to impoverish the people of Gaza, and thus turn them against Hamas. As the Israeli newspaper Haaretz has reported, the Israeli officials in charge of the embargo adhere to what they call a policy of “no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis.” In other words, the embargo must be tight enough to keep the people of Gaza miserable, but not so tight that they starve.

This explains why Israel prevents Gazans from importing, among other things, cilantro, sage, jam, chocolate, French fries, dried fruit, fabrics, notebooks, empty flowerpots and toys, none of which are particularly useful in building Kassam rockets. It’s why Israel bans virtually all exports from Gaza, a policy that has helped to destroy the Strip’s agriculture, contributed to the closing of some 95 percent of its factories, and left more 80 percent of its population dependent on food aid. It’s why Gaza’s fishermen are not allowed to travel more than three miles from the coast, which dramatically reduces their catch. And it’s why Israel prevents Gazan students from studying in the West Bank, a policy recently denounced by 10 winners of the prestigious Israel Prize. There’s a name for all this: collective punishment.

Israel does not deserve all the blame for Gaza’s impoverishment. Gaza’s other neighbor, Egypt, imposes an embargo of its own, though less effectively. And Hamas has been known to confiscate goods meant for Gaza’s poor. But none of that excuses Israel’s role in keeping Gaza destitute. Far from a well-crafted policy, the Gaza embargo has become something you might find in a University of Chicago seminar about the perversions inherent in interfering with free trade. As Haaretz detailed in a remarkable investigative report last summer, the embargo is not merely arbitrary (Gazans can import cinnamon, but not chocolate), it is corrupt. When Israeli farmers have surplus supply, they seek loopholes for the goods they wish to sell. Israeli officials allow Gazans to import Israeli products, but not the materials necessary to make those products themselves, since that would threaten Israel’s hold on the Gazan market. As the Israeli human-rights group Gisha has noted, Gazans can buy Israeli-made tomato paste, but cannot buy the empty cans necessary to preserve and market their own, which would compete with Israeli suppliers.

If all this were actually turning the people of Gaza against Hamas, perhaps—perhaps—it might have a cold-blooded justification. But if there is anything that the U.S. has learned from its half-century long embargo of Cuba, it is that policies of collective punishment don’t turn people against their regimes. To the contrary, they usually offer those regimes an excuse for their inability to govern.

Keep in mind that Beinart is one of Israel's biggest fanboy apologists in the media.

Holy shit, that's so twisted. I came up with similar ideas for an Orwellian novel about a world where capitalism "won" as it were, and I can't believe they're actually doing it. How is chocolate supposed to help bomb Israelis? Seriously, the UK or someone should just force their way in with enough relief materials to uplift the area and just circumvent Israel all together.

[Coyote]

So you'd fight because you'd think it would be easy (the radars bit,) or because you'd like to go to war?

Where the fuck does this come from? How about "go to war to support a situation you see as just"? Or go to war to "prevent a greater evil from happening"? There are many motivations or reasons for an individual to volunteer to fight, and they go way beyond the two simple-minded arguments you posted.

[Serafina]

So you'd fight because you'd think it would be easy (the radars bit,) or because you'd like to go to war?

Where the fuck does this come from? How about "go to war to support a situation you see as just"? Or go to war to "prevent a greater evil from happening"? There are many motivations or reasons for an individual to volunteer to fight, and they go way beyond the two simple-minded arguments you posted.

As far as i recall, ShadowDragon has never shown that he is capable of more than binary thinking


Either way - the article by Elfdart pretty clearly demonstrates that, even if the blockade doesn't violate the letters of international laws, it violates their spirit.
Israel is basically treating as a giant ghetto, milking them for cash and political gain.
That's no news - neither is it new that they are pretty recless and overly agressive.
But the current situation demonstrates nicely how detatched they are from the rest of the world and it's values.

[Coyote]

Am I purhaps the only american of partial jewish extraction that would savor the irony of Isreal's leadership having a visit to the Hague?

I would love to see Bibi Netanyahu and Hermann Goering Avigdor Lieberman hauled before the Hague. Those two are killing Israel from inside with their bullshit fearmongering and hard-right bullheadedness. And limit the Shas party's ability to participate in politics.

[Serafina]

Am I purhaps the only american of partial jewish extraction that would savor the irony of Isreal's leadership having a visit to the Hague?

I would love to see Bibi Netanyahu and Hermann Goering Avigdor Lieberman hauled before the Hague. Those two are killing Israel from inside with their bullshit fearmongering and hard-right bullheadedness. And limit the Shas party's ability to participate in politics.

Israel explicitly doesn't answer to international courts.
So either they change that policy (quite unlikely, even under massive external pressure), someone conquers them (even more unlikely) or these two will never face an international court.

[Coyote]

Didn't England issue a warrant for the arrest of General Pinochet if he ever left Chile? And they nabbed him, eventually. I would love to see Bibi being pushed into the back of a police car somewhere.

It'd have to be somewhere in Europe, though, because so far it looks like the US isn't going to be seizing on this anytime soon. Sigh.

[Zed]

This isn't exactly theoretical. http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-conf ... vni-1.2133

[wautd]

Am I purhaps the only american of partial jewish extraction that would savor the irony of Isreal's leadership having a visit to the Hague?

I would love to see Bibi Netanyahu and Hermann Goering Avigdor Lieberman hauled before the Hague. Those two are killing Israel from inside with their bullshit fearmongering and hard-right bullheadedness. And limit the Shas party's ability to participate in politics.

Israel explicitly doesn't answer to international courts.
So either they change that policy (quite unlikely, even under massive external pressure), someone conquers them (even more unlikely) or these two will never face an international court.

So by which standard is Iran currently viewed as a rogue state whereas Israel isn't?

Apart that one of the above is important for the American weapon lobby offcourse.

[Ritterin Sophia]

So by which standard is Iran currently viewed as a rogue state whereas Israel isn't?

Apart that one of the above is important for the American weapon lobby offcourse.

Israel is full of Jews and Iran is full of Muslims.

[Serafina]

Israel explicitly doesn't answer to international courts.
So either they change that policy (quite unlikely, even under massive external pressure), someone conquers them (even more unlikely) or these two will never face an international court.

So by which standard is Iran currently viewed as a rogue state whereas Israel isn't?

Apart that one of the above is important for the American weapon lobby offcourse.

Umm - the same standard that says that the USA do not subject their own soldiers to international courts?

Really - no country that has not been beaten in a war has to subject it's citizens to international courts in reality - there is simply no good way to enforce it. Nations can do so voluntarily (and many do so), but that obviously doesn't apply when their own leaders would face charges.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Im a bit surprised that the Israelis are OK with fertilizer since it can be used in bombs.

Well, that list does specify chemical fertilizer, which doesn't need to have ammonium nitrate. They probably screen for specific types of fertilizer, with potassium compounds or some such. I am interested in finding out more about this, because the possibilities can be pretty insidious. Chemical fertilizer tends to be more expensive, so it is possible that even though they allow it to be imported, most Palestinians are unable to afford it in anyway, and can't use it to grow crops. Furthermore, chemical fertilizers are usually custom made for a specific soil type (for example, if you have soil that is rich in nitrate, you want fertilizer with potassium and phosphorus), so it is possible that the stuff that they allow into Gaza isn't even terribly effective.