If animals went to an afterlife, would Hell be full of ants?

[Rossum]

Okay, this is a crazy idea that hit me as I was trying to sleep at night. If the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell was real and the souls of the dead were sent to their eternal reward depending on their actions in life, and the same rules of morality applied to animals as well as humans, what would the afterlife look like? What kind of horrible things would that entail for organic life the world over?

It started when I thought about evolution and how pretty much every life form has to defend itself against others in order to survive, procreate and prosper. If there were any real pacifist animals then I'm pretty sure most of them would have gone extinct (well, except for the Sea Cucumber... who defends itself by vomiting up its own internal organs as a gift to predators) or been reduced to prey that has to hide from predators. Fornication and adultery could have some nasty implications for any species that doesn't reproduce asexually (maybe the reason pandas are going extinct is because they are keeping themselves pure?).

But, if some of those actions that creatures do every day to survive in the real world are considered sins... and result in the unfortunate animal being sent to Hell upon its death... and its fellows in the real world as sensitive enough to hear its screams of agony as its put through eternal torment for all of time (which, lets face it would be a looong time). I mean, the Panda Bear species must be hundreds of thousands or something years old. Panda Bears from before the time of recorded human civilization could have died and gone to Hell for committing incest and been burning nonstop for eons with successive generations piling up. Only recently have their collective screams of warning been able to reach modern Pandas who are now deciding to just stop having kids and go extinct... really, if some poor stupid animal was capable of comprehending what eternal torment would be like and could hear its dead ancestors then it might gain just enough sapience to turn abstinent and go extinct. Even if there was a Panda heaven and they could hear that then why doom future generations to a fate such as that?

Ants however, ants would throw everything out of whack. Ants commit wars, they make hives and exist in societies where they simply couldn't comprehend having a religion (ants worship the hive, they don't care about God one whit), the ant queens probably commit incest as a matter of course and they all work on the Sabbath. I'm pretty sure that every single ant in all of History would go to Hell... unless they were one of the more friendly species that don't war as often in which case I think a fair number would go to Heaven.

Which brings up the point that ants outnumber every single other creature on Earth several thousand to one. Multiply that by their short lifespan, huge rate of reproduction, death rate, and all of the history of multicellular life and the combined mass of all the dead ants should be larger than the mass of the Earth itself (okay, maybe not that big... maybe... the Earth is really big... but that would be alot of ants...). Even if ants were all sinners and went straight to Hell when they died, and even if they could possibly know that and even comprehend that... they probably wouldn't care since they outweigh Hell! Hell isn't full of fire and brimstone, its full of ants! Heck, even out of every hundred thousand ants who ever died was pious and saintly enough to go the Heaven then there would be a hugely massive number of ants in there as well. At that point, if ants have immortal souls that go to an afterlife then it doesn't matter where they go... if you wind up in the same place as them then you might as well be in Hell.


Anyway, sorry if this doesn't make sense or belongs in the Fantasy board (not really an ethical dilemma...) but it's 1 AM and I couldn't sleep until I got this off my mind (for once I'm glad I was raised Jehovahs Witness and all I have to look forward to as a sinner is the Nothing after death... I don't think I could take it if it turns out that ants have souls and they took over Hell).

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'd be more worried about bacteria or even viruses if I were you

[Kuroji]

Actually that would depend whether or not reproduction is possible, not to mention whether consuming food is necessary or even possible. If viruses and bacteria cannot reproduce, they won't be able to make you particularly sick, and if they can't eat then they won't produce any toxins to make you suffer.

[Oskuro]

Do any animals worship GOD? No? There, all straight to Hell (First commandment and all)

[Ziggy Stardust]

(well, except for the Sea Cucumber... who defends itself by vomiting up its own internal organs as a gift to predators)

Technically, since Sea Cucumbers eat plankton, they aren't "pacifist" either.

[Ilya Muromets]

The only really bright side to come out of all this has to be Dino-rides in Hell.

[Jeremy]

The only really bright side to come out of all this has to be Dino-rides in Hell.

sig worthy

[Oskuro]

The only really bright side to come out of all this has to be Dino-rides in Hell.

So we can finally infer that no, Jesus Christ did not ride dinosaurs (them being filthy heathens and all).

[Jeremy]

Where does this Jesus on a Dinosaur thing come from? Is there a comic floating around with him on a triceratops killing zombie-nazis or a Jack Chick pamphlet?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Okay, this is a crazy idea that hit me as I was trying to sleep at night. If the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell was real and the souls of the dead were sent to their eternal reward depending on their actions in life, and the same rules of morality applied to animals as well as humans, what would the afterlife look like? What kind of horrible things would that entail for organic life the world over?

Christian here. I bolded the relevant part of your post. Biblically, the same rules do NOT apply to animals. They don't have souls, and they haven't been redeemed by Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

Don't sweat it.

[Gramzamber]

If animals don't have souls, aren't they just automatons?
If they're just automatons, why did Noah have to save 2 of every animal? Why didn't God just create them all again? Oh well maybe he lost the CD key to his copy of Spore like I did.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If animals don't have souls, aren't they just automatons?
If they're just automatons, why did Noah have to save 2 of every animal? Why didn't God just create them all again? Oh well maybe he lost the CD key to his copy of Spore like I did.

Noah saved more than two of each. As for why, I have no idea.

[Axiomatic]

Noah saved more than two of each useful animal, and two of each not useful one.

[Oskuro]

Where does this Jesus on a Dinosaur thing come from? Is there a comic floating around with him on a triceratops killing zombie-nazis or a Jack Chick pamphlet?

It comes from this image, wich allegedly comes from a Bible Coloring Book for children:



As far as I know, it hasn't been verified that it really comes from a real christian publication, and it does indeed reek of parody.

[Samuel]

It doesn't make it any less awesome. Seriously, it makes the coolness of dinosaurs and rubs it off on Jesus while combining it with cowboys. What is not to like?

[Rossum]

Hmm... if dinosaurs had souls then that means that Jesus could have resurrected them from fossil remains.

1st Century passerby: Hmm... your new religion sounds interesting but I'm not sure if I want to break away from the temple. What exactly does your religion preach?

Jesus: There are two laws above all: Love God with your whole mind, whole body, and whole soul and love your neighbor as yourself. And I don't require regular animal sacrifices or donations to the church.

1st century passerby: That sounds good. But I'm not sure if its really feasible or worth converting...

Jesus: Also, Dinosaurs! *steps aside to reveal his pet dinosaur*

1st Century passerby: HOLYCRAPTHATSAWESOME! Where did you get it?

Jesus: Raised it from the dead.

1st Century passerby: You've got a convert!

[Oskuro]

Back on topic, if animals are supposed to not have souls, what would be the religious stance on cruelty to animals?

[Samuel]

Back on topic, if animals are supposed to not have souls, what would be the religious stance on cruelty to animals?

I think Thomas Aquinas believed that you shouldn't be cruel to animals because those attitudes carry onto your dealings with other people. I don't know what other theologians believed.

[Coyote]

I suppose a lot of it would have to do if animals make a choice to be bad, which means that only the high-functioning animals are faced with the possibility of hell. Things like ants don't make choices, they live entirely on instinct, which means they are pre-programmed to do their thing.

But things like dogs and dolphins, for example, have shown ability to make choices, so they may have to face the possibility of damnation. Of course, being of limited self-awareness and probably unable to project complex future consequences of present actions, the bar may be set much lower for them than for humans, who can conceptualize results far into the future (by comparison).

All this assumes that animals would be represented in the afterlife at all; if they have souls perhaps there is no need for them to be redeemed and accept Jesus or a Savior since their souls are "simpler" and may not have the taint of original sin. And of course if Judaism is real, and they are operating under OT rules, then there is no need to "accept Jesus" at all since he's a non-issue in Judaism.

If animals don't have souls, I think it creates a problem for ethics because there really is nothing against animal abuse except the old "don't be a dick" rule. But frequently, seeing an animal being abused, or seeing the results of animal abuse, sparks an automatic reaction of sympathy (for the animal) and anger (at the abuser) in most people, so there's some sort of visceral action at work there, which could be Divine in origin.

It is also very difficult for me to conceptualize how anything could be considered "heaven" or "reward" if it doesn't have my dogs in it-- Scratch, Poncho, Sota, and (someday -- ) Sadie. But that's me.

If anything, Hell is probably full of cats. ( )

[Kanastrous]

Back on topic, if animals are supposed to not have souls, what would be the religious stance on cruelty to animals?

The OT devotes some space to regulating the treatment of animals. A couple points that I remember are that animals of unequal strength (ie a goat and an ox) must not be yoked together (makes things real tough on the goat)* and that one is instructed to see to the feeding and watering of one's animals before eating one's own meal. This suggests that cruelty to animals is anathema - also there are the kosher slaughtering rules, which were in part intended to kill the animal as quickly (and presumably as painlessly) as possible, given the tools available at the time the laws were written.

*of course this also plays into the OT obsession with keeping unlike things separate; for example you aren't supposed to combine linen and wool in the same garment, either...

[Oskuro]

Wait, are you saying the "equally yoked" thing used to justify opposition to interracial marriages is actually about handling animals? Or is there a more specific passage regarding that?


As for the choices of animals condemnig them, I wonder again what the "rules" say about those who cannot choose properly, like children or people with mental handicaps (or crazy), since they would aproxiate the situation of an animal making choices. Of course, since animals had no part in the original sin (save snakes) maybe they are assumed to always be pure, and thus need no salvation.

[Kanastrous]

I'll have to look up chapter and verse, but like I said there's a wide streak of 'don't mix unlike things' in Judaism, of which the goat/ox (actually, I think it was a donkey and and ox; same concept) is just one example.

Anyway, people prone to quoting scripture to back up their prejudices can be relied upon to twist meanings and take things out-of-context as far as they feel they need to, in order to support their position.

[Oskuro]

Indeed, since that "don't mix unlike things" quote could very well be used to support homosexuality, or even incest

[Kanastrous]

Maybe it's those gol-durned heteros have had it wrong, all this time...

[CJvR]

Don't know about ants, but parasite wasps probably would have an extra warm room down there - vile creatures.