Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Wait wait wait... are we saying chainswords hitting dense or metallic objects aren't going to make heaps of noise? Putting aside tiny things like leverage, isn't it pretty much a done deal that it's going to make a hell of a racket (even if it does use some silent direct drive and perfect lubrication)? In 40k they'd have to deal with rigid metal armour all the time, and that's going to be a lol.
Then again, since they're such impractical weapons, perhaps they're not designed to go for the armour at all. Watching some guy try to push a chainsword into a space marine's power armour is a hilarious mental image.
'The chainsword cut through the door, we just needed to use a backhoe to force it through the metal and wear ear protection'.
The Eldar version probably uses their magic magnets extensively, but that's not going to make it's cutting chain silent (although their materials tech will probably make it much sharper/harder so less force will be needed to do anything a lightsabre can do).
Then again, since they're such impractical weapons, perhaps they're not designed to go for the armour at all. Watching some guy try to push a chainsword into a space marine's power armour is a hilarious mental image.
'The chainsword cut through the door, we just needed to use a backhoe to force it through the metal and wear ear protection'.
The Eldar version probably uses their magic magnets extensively, but that's not going to make it's cutting chain silent (although their materials tech will probably make it much sharper/harder so less force will be needed to do anything a lightsabre can do).
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Still, he learned how to use chainswords from commissar school. He was taught by Miyamoto de Bergnac.Connor MacLeod wrote:I dont think we can consider Cain (and probably Commissars by extnesion) "Normal humans". Cain can fucking duel with CSMs (however briefly.) even when you include the Jurgen Effect.Shroom Man 777 wrote: Normal humans like Ciaphas Cain can use chainswords. They're the standard melee weapon for commissars.
So normal humans using chainswords is not unprecedented or anything.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
How does a normal human get close enough to use a chainsword ? I am told the standard space marine handgun is a machine gun firing RPG projectiles that can destroy a small tank. Given the extreme long range, accurate and destructive weapons in 40K universe is not a melee weapon a bad idea ?
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
The humans don't actively charge the enemy with the sole intention of stabbing them with a sword. At least, the non insane ones. Ciaphas Cain, aside from being totally badass with his sword, is also a crack shot with his pistol and also makes sure that his subordinates are between him and the enemy.
Also, in the 40k universe the enemy can often comes in obscene numbers that when your weapons run out of ammo, you may still have to defend yourselves. Given the extreme obscenity of opponents in the 40k universe, turning melee weapons such as bayonets and entrenchment tools into diesel-fueled chainsaw-toothed eviscerators is a good idea. Think of the chainsaws as the futuristic equivalent of bayonets or E-tools.
Also, in the 40k universe the enemy can often comes in obscene numbers that when your weapons run out of ammo, you may still have to defend yourselves. Given the extreme obscenity of opponents in the 40k universe, turning melee weapons such as bayonets and entrenchment tools into diesel-fueled chainsaw-toothed eviscerators is a good idea. Think of the chainsaws as the futuristic equivalent of bayonets or E-tools.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Which is why NCOs are armed with pistols and swords, right?
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Sure why not.
It would be too burdensome to have them carry carbines anyway. How do chainsaws compare in penetrating power to 5.56mm or .22 4x4 expanding teflon-coated nylon pink-powder cartridges anyway? Would it compare poorly, or betterly, than other Western weapons in tolerance tests?
It would be too burdensome to have them carry carbines anyway. How do chainsaws compare in penetrating power to 5.56mm or .22 4x4 expanding teflon-coated nylon pink-powder cartridges anyway? Would it compare poorly, or betterly, than other Western weapons in tolerance tests?
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Well it wouldn't be a 100% increase so we'd stick with the swords.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
It is obvious from the context that I'm talking about noise in an activated position where they are not doing any actual work. The worse Imperial models are quite noisy when idling, the eldar are not. I really did not feel a need to specify this because the idea of them being quiet when cutting is laughable.Stark wrote:Wait wait wait... are we saying chainswords hitting dense or metallic objects aren't going to make heaps of noise?
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
When confronted with Space Marines, normal humans tend to die in droves; they don't really beat them in hand-to-hand except in the most exceptional cases. In the setting, ordinary humans mostly fight... other ordinary humans. Occasionally orks or tyranids.Sarevok wrote:How does a normal human get close enough to use a chainsword ? I am told the standard space marine handgun is a machine gun firing RPG projectiles that can destroy a small tank. Given the extreme long range, accurate and destructive weapons in 40K universe is not a melee weapon a bad idea ?
Why there are swords on the future battlefield at all, now that's another matter, best explained by 'everyone in the setting is insane as a civilization'
---
Moving onto a serious question, does anyone recall what the wattage estimate was for lightsabers? I seem to recall someone working one out from the blast-door scene in TPM. I suspect it to be rather higher than the known wattages of power fists.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
The main problem with the lightsaber is that it is so light and powerful that you can cut yourself in half very easily.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
You would have to be one of the most retard swordsmen to accomplish this given what it means to hold your blade to achieve this effect.Iosef Cross wrote:The main problem with the lightsaber is that it is so light and powerful that you can cut yourself in half very easily.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Colonel Commissar Ibram Gaunt used a Chainsaw sword before he switched to a powersword. Plus, in his duel with his adopted father, he used it in as a stabbing tool.
I also remember him trying to slice through a metal door in ... that 3rd book in the first Ghost Omnibus.
I also remember him trying to slice through a metal door in ... that 3rd book in the first Ghost Omnibus.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
In Necropolis, COL-Commisar Ibram attempted to open an "armoured shutter" using an chainsword at "full power". The net result was "broken saw-teeth" and "a jagged slot a few centimeters across". This took him two swings, im sure that someone could calculate how many swings at X swings for Y centimeters to Z time to get a hole enough to admit him. Calculate also if every swing one tooth is broken off, by X swing the chainsword would be a chainbelt.Shroom Man 777 wrote:Normal humans like Ciaphas Cain can use chainswords. They're the standard melee weapon for commissars.
Also in Space Wolf, the SW Sergeant who is training the aspirants throws his chainsword into the ground and challenges them to pick it up. The aspirant who tries has trouble yanking it out of the ground, leading to the Sarge to offer his knife. Now, these aspirants are not your everyday boot camp fresh recruits, they kill and hunt on a planet that has some big ass wolves.
So it is highly possible that Space Marines use larger and beefier Chainswords than the ones used by the rest of the imperium.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Did he stab it with it running?Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Colonel Commissar Ibram Gaunt used a Chainsaw sword before he switched to a powersword. Plus, in his duel with his adopted father, he used it in as a stabbing tool.
I also remember him trying to slice through a metal door in ... that 3rd book in the first Ghost Omnibus.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
He runs with the damn sword all the time, since he tends to lead from the front.Stark wrote:Did he stab it with it running?Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Colonel Commissar Ibram Gaunt used a Chainsaw sword before he switched to a powersword. Plus, in his duel with his adopted father, he used it in as a stabbing tool.
I also remember him trying to slice through a metal door in ... that 3rd book in the first Ghost Omnibus.
As for the duel, it was a closed ranged one.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
With it running, you'd think the force from the chainsaw would make it pretty hard to recover it. The chainsword training must have some pretty specific skills for toggling it on and off during combat; maybe you can adjust the way it runs or something.
Go stab a tree (or a couch, or a person) with a chainsaw and see what happens.
Go stab a tree (or a couch, or a person) with a chainsaw and see what happens.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Wouldn't you break your wrist when it jerks to the side?
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Hasn't a Space Marine used a power fist to blow someone up? It's in the same novel that reveals that power fists have a stun setting.NecronLord wrote:Moving onto a serious question, does anyone recall what the wattage estimate was for lightsabers? I seem to recall someone working one out from the blast-door scene in TPM. I suspect it to be rather higher than the known wattages of power fists.
Chainswords are dumb, but they've had them for like ten thousand years, and they have stuff like master chainswordsmen and probably even schools of chainswording. It seems somewhat plausible to assume that in that time they have perfected the dumb idea.Stark wrote: The chainsword training must have some pretty specific skills for toggling it on and off during combat; maybe you can adjust the way it runs or something.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
They can. One of the early Ghost's novels goes in some detail about that.Stark wrote:With it running, you'd think the force from the chainsaw would make it pretty hard to recover it. The chainsword training must have some pretty specific skills for toggling it on and off during combat; maybe you can adjust the way it runs or something.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
There's a few examples of Marines at least using powerfists to simply kersplode people.
Hasn't a Space Marine used a power fist to blow someone up? It's in the same novel that reveals that power fists have a stun setting.
There is one short story where an apothecary plans to use his powerfist as a demolition charge in a suicide run to take out a Dready, and he cranks it up to max output. Whilst on the way, he smashes a Berserker with it, and is rewarded with a red smear and a light rain of armour fragments. He also uses it as a sort of shock weapon, placing his palm against the armour of other marines causes them to spasm and writhe as the powerfield is conducted throughout their armour. When the fist actually goes off as an adhoc explosive charge, its fairly impressive.
A chap in Deathwing demonstrates some more variety of use, pulsing the field of his gauntlet to fry the guy clutched in it, as opposed to simply using it to make the target more malleable, which appears to be the default setting for most powerfists. A heavy powered gauntlet, combined with a powerfield to let you dig through the material you are grasping at more easily, and the ability to put extra muscle behind a punch, which seems to result in a larger energy release from the powerfield.
So you can rip and tear, or simply use it as a bludgeoning weapon.
It doesn't make much different, but the Sollex guys are plasma fanboys, its a plasma sword of doom. Eisenhorns is your basic sci-fi laser swordThere are two known examples, one as a relic of the Golden Age of Technology in the original Chem-Dogs writeup, and the other the Sollex pattern energy blade produced in the Calixis sector by a mechanicus order devoted to understanding the laser, and based on technology reclaimed during the Angevin Crusade. They are rare and expensive.
It might be rationalised that they use wraithbone blades because it allows them better control, the whole psychic substance might allow the limited telekinesis available to your average eldar to be developed into the bullet deflecting, sword throwing and so forth of Aspects and Exarchs. Warlocks and Farseers won't use them because they wouldn't have the psychic helix built into witchblades etc.The Eldar (who must possess the technology, as their knowledge of lasers exceeds the Imperium's by far) may not deem them fit for full scale battlefield deployment but that may be for a number of other reasons.
Plus, maybe Asurmen didn't like flashy laserswords, so he never let anyone play with them.....
I think a big problem with chainsword design is that illustrations are often informed by models, which suffer from heroic exaggeration, and we end up with a weapon with a cutting edge far smaller than the thickness of the back of the blade mount. Extremely fast moving tough and monomolecular cutting teeth aren't really enough to explain how the things cut through solid armour. I'd like to rationalise it by saying that many models might have the low level powerfield that Eviscerators have. Eviscerators being giant two handed models.
Its pretty much a given that they do. Pretty much all their equipment is larger, usually armoured and so on. The standard chainsword of a Marine could actually be the size of an Eviscerator for a normal human, which is why I like to think they will also have some similar form of powerfield enhancement.So it is highly possible that Space Marines use larger and beefier Chainswords than the ones used by the rest of the imperium.
Swords of any sort are really more rank symbols than anything for the standard guard, you get to wave it around and "inspire" whether or not this actually works, or should make sense is pointless to moan about.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
Single digit Megajoules are more than adequate to blow someone up. 8 MJ is four sticks of dynamite or so.Ford Prefect wrote:Hasn't a Space Marine used a power fist to blow someone up? It's in the same novel that reveals that power fists have a stun setting.NecronLord wrote:Moving onto a serious question, does anyone recall what the wattage estimate was for lightsabers? I seem to recall someone working one out from the blast-door scene in TPM. I suspect it to be rather higher than the known wattages of power fists.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
I'd forgotten Eisenhorn's. Probably because he later used physical ones and is generally shown with them. I was thinking of an example from WD when they introduced the Chem Dogs; you could roll on a table for priceless stuff they'd scavenged, one was a portable hologram projector as in Total Recall, and another one was a red-bladed energy-sword from the Dark Age of Technology.white_rabbit wrote:It doesn't make much different, but the Sollex guys are plasma fanboys, its a plasma sword of doom. Eisenhorns is your basic sci-fi laser sword
It really doesn't need to be rationalised; a physical sword has more momentum than an energy blade, and will do more damage. The Eldar could quite easily have them behind the scenes and not use them in battle; the Imperium doesn't really use them in battle, either, probably for the same reason. Being hit with a power field is nasty, being hit with a power field and a giant sword is nastier.It might be rationalised that they use wraithbone blades because it allows them better control, the whole psychic substance might allow the limited telekinesis available to your average eldar to be developed into the bullet deflecting, sword throwing and so forth of Aspects and Exarchs. Warlocks and Farseers won't use them because they wouldn't have the psychic helix built into witchblades etc.
Powerfield on Eviscerators? That's canon? How reasonable.Plus, maybe Asurmen didn't like flashy laserswords, so he never let anyone play with them.....
I think a big problem with chainsword design is that illustrations are often informed by models, which suffer from heroic exaggeration, and we end up with a weapon with a cutting edge far smaller than the thickness of the back of the blade mount. Extremely fast moving tough and monomolecular cutting teeth aren't really enough to explain how the things cut through solid armour. I'd like to rationalise it by saying that many models might have the low level powerfield that Eviscerators have. Eviscerators being giant two handed models.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
The only "reliable" one I've done was from TPM and assumed iron (which I am not totally comfortable with assuming nowadays.. I never bothered to match up the temp colors or all that.) but it comes out to somewhere between double and triple digit Megawatts. I think I did some rough calcs from the first two seasons of some of the clone Wars series (the current one not the micro series) for sabers and it could get double digit in some case,s but don't quote me on that.NecronLord wrote: Moving onto a serious question, does anyone recall what the wattage estimate was for lightsabers? I seem to recall someone working one out from the blast-door scene in TPM. I suspect it to be rather higher than the known wattages of power fists.
Either way, the idea of a multi-megawatt melee laser being a "better" weapon is not one I actually can agree with. Fuck I am not even sure a normal person could even USE a lightsaber at those ratings (certainly not to do stuff like cutting through doors, at least.)
I'm also ignoring certain other "problems" with lightsabers, like their inconsistency when it comes to cutting through living matter, their inconsistent ability to cauterize, etc... Chainswords aren't the only "problematic" weapon here and I fail to see why this gets disregarded.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
As I recall the Gauntlets of MAcragge ()a power fist) had a 1-8 MW rating. Most of the calcable instances for power weapons I can recall (thermal effects mainly) would fit into the high KJ/low MJ range too (most extreme possible would be the Powerfist from Emperor's Mercy but I never ran calcs on those yet.)NecronLord wrote:Single digit Megajoules are more than adequate to blow someone up. 8 MJ is four sticks of dynamite or so.Ford Prefect wrote:Hasn't a Space Marine used a power fist to blow someone up? It's in the same novel that reveals that power fists have a stun setting.NecronLord wrote:Moving onto a serious question, does anyone recall what the wattage estimate was for lightsabers? I seem to recall someone working one out from the blast-door scene in TPM. I suspect it to be rather higher than the known wattages of power fists.
So in context, a power weapon puts out less energy than a lightsaber. I dont know if the above applies to "pur eenergy" type powerswords though, either, and I'm not sure how to factor in variable outputs (if any) on the power sword side.
That said, energy isn't everything. As you noted, power swords, being a physical blade surrounded by a field, leads to a more complex weapon - you actually have mass as well as energy behind the blade (kinetic as well as thermal effects) and that can be significnat. Especially since (at least some) powerblades act to enahnce cutting (monomol like effect, assuming the sword isn't already monomol).
Hell you can get all kinds of power-weapon effects. Some have the "super sharp" effect, some have some sort of technobabble distintegration effect for matter around the blade, some apparently can blow the target apart like a grenade (as noted) - and that I think is a considerably better damage mechanism than melting/burning in many cases IMHO.
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Re: Which is better for melee, chainswords or lightssabers?
First and Only. It also specifies that Chainswords are ludicriously heavy, which means that they aren't something you can expect an average person to wield, even factoring in differences between normal and SM weaponry. We're talking IIRC several kilos for the weapon, so its not something you can swing fast or easily. On the other hand, chainswords are at least partly bludgeons.Imperial Overlord wrote:They can. One of the early Ghost's novels goes in some detail about that.
White Rabbit brought up an excellent point as well. Going by the artwork/visuals of chainswords is somewhat probelmatic because of the exaggerated nature of weapons (or even human proportions. Power armor, the barrels of tank and vehicle guns being impractically huge, etc.) I mean if oyu think about the average chainsword size on a Ciaphas Cain novel, do you think he could REALLY heft that thing one handed?
Edit: Besides, the folk who mainly use chainswrods tend to be a sort of "specialist" anyhow - commissars or Assualt Marines, who typically have a psychological (or terror) function behind them as well. Most "normal" troops have a knife or bayonet (even Marines) that may or may not have a mono edge instead of a chain weapon.