Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Russia Today is reporting that contact with the MV Rachel Corrie was lost an hour ago and has not been resumed and that nobody aboard is reachable by radio, satellite phone, etc, with no distress messages having been broadcast.

What I don't understand is why anyone doesn't try agreeing to dock at Ashdod and then break off when about twelve or fifteen miles off and then make like hell for Gaza and beach themselves inside the border. It would only be about a fifteen mile run and at eighteen knots with the engines all out they'd only have to resist Israeli attempts to seize control of the bridge for 45 minutes or so. Of course, I expect these people to be as naive and stupid as Sea Shepherd, so I guess no surprise they haven't tried anything more creative.

Better yet, if they really wanted to get aid into Gaza, file a regular plan for a freighter carrying cargo to the port of Ashdod and then do the above.

[Stark]

Are you saying you have as much right to determine Palestinian government than the Palestinians, due to 'democracy'?

It's pretty funny that Israel uses the 'fighting for survival' excuse for all of its atrocities when it's ludicrous because Israel in general is in no danger, whereas when the Palestinians do it they're terrorists. Damn brown people!

[Vendetta]

Russia Today is reporting that contact with the MV Rachel Corrie was lost an hour ago and has not been resumed and that nobody aboard is reachable by radio, satellite phone, etc, with no distress messages having been broadcast.

BBC have reported that the Rachel Corrie was seized by Israeli forces, and there are no reports of violence aboard.

What I don't understand is why anyone doesn't try agreeing to dock at Ashdod and then break off when about twelve or fifteen miles off and then make like hell for Gaza and beach themselves inside the border.

Presumably they want to actually use the ships again. Beaching would vastly increase the cost of getting more aid in because you would have to get those ships back to sea, especially given that the aid these ships are bringing is still a small fraction of what is required.

[CJvR]

What I don't understand is why anyone doesn't try agreeing to dock at Ashdod and then break off when about twelve or fifteen miles off and then make like hell for Gaza and beach themselves inside the border. It would only be about a fifteen mile run and at eighteen knots with the engines all out they'd only have to resist Israeli attempts to seize control of the bridge for 45 minutes or so. Of course, I expect these people to be as naive and stupid as Sea Shepherd, so I guess no surprise they haven't tried anything more creative.

Silly plan. The border is no protection in this situation and I doubt the old barges these organizations can afford could make 18kts even if you sailed them down Niagara falls. There is no place you could beach a ship that would not be within artillery range to prevent unloading and with the high readdyness of the IDF it would be boarded fairly rapidly even if it wasn't disabled by gunfire in the first few minutes. If you are serious about breaking the blockade you would do better in investing in an old 40 kts MTB and avoid any PR stunts.

[The Grim Squeaker]

This might make sense, except that the Israeli commandos are probably better trained than your average soldier and might be more used to aiming for the head.

'Israel' and 'better trained' go together like 'supersonic' and 'helicopter gunship'. The IDF is a joke in comparison to other western fighting forces, the Ground Component just happens to be slightly less incompetent than the IAF or the Navy.

And of course, you can back that extraordinary claim up with something resembling empirical evidence?

[Ritterin Sophia]

This might make sense, except that the Israeli commandos are probably better trained than your average soldier and might be more used to aiming for the head.

'Israel' and 'better trained' go together like 'supersonic' and 'helicopter gunship'. The IDF is a joke in comparison to other western fighting forces, the Ground Component just happens to be slightly less incompetent than the IAF or the Navy.

And of course, you can back that extraordinary claim up with something resembling empirical evidence?

You mean like engaging in a war where they meet none of their objectives? How about mistaking an allied ship for an enemy one that's half as long and looks nothing like it? Or how about turning off the radar because you don't feel the ship is in any danger?

[The Grim Squeaker]

'Israel' and 'better trained' go together like 'supersonic' and 'helicopter gunship'. The IDF is a joke in comparison to other western fighting forces, the Ground Component just happens to be slightly less incompetent than the IAF or the Navy.

And of course, you can back that extraordinary claim up with something resembling empirical evidence?

You mean like engaging in a war where they meet none of their objectives?

This point is so hilariously moronic that a small part of me hopes you realize on your own that "failing to win a war" does not prove your point. Since, y'know, Vietnam, Afghanistan (for the ussr), WW2 Partisan forces, heck even the Roman empire and rebellions - none of those ring any bells, am i rite?

How about mistaking an allied ship for an enemy one that's half as long and looks nothing like it? Or how about turning off the radar because you don't feel the ship is in any danger?

You may not like it, but the only reason your nation's military wins wars against your neighbors is because the Arabs are notoriously bad with training their own soldiers.

So, totally ignoring my point about providing any form of evidence to back up your claims.


Concession accepted.

[Ritterin Sophia]

This point is so hilariously moronic that a small part of me hopes you realize on your own that "failing to win a war" does not prove your point. Since, y'know, Vietnam, Afghanistan (for the ussr), WW2 Partisan forces, heck even the Roman empire and rebellions - none of those ring any bells, am i rite?

Leadership was clearly incompetent for setting unreasonable goals.

So, totally ignoring my point about providing any form of evidence to back up your claims.

Claim: IDF is incompetent.

Evidence: Ground Component that can't achieve it's objectives, incompetently lead.
Navy that turns off their warning radar during a state of war, incompetently crewed.
Air Force that inappropriately ID's an allied ship as an enemy ship half as long, incompetently crewed.

Further we have this particular incident, you don't fast rope into a crowd, because you can't secure the ground.

Concession accepted.

Indeed.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Claim: IDF is incompetent.

Evidence: Ground Component that can't achieve it's objectives, incompetently lead.
Navy that turns off their warning radar during a state of war, incompetently crewed.
Air Force that inappropriately ID's an allied ship as an enemy ship half as long, incompetently crewed.

Further we have this particular incident, you don't fast rope into a crowd, because you can't secure the ground.

No, your claim was:

This might make sense, except that the Israeli commandos are probably better trained than your average soldier and might be more used to aiming for the head.

'Israel' and 'better trained' go together like 'supersonic' and 'helicopter gunship'. The IDF is a joke in comparison to other western fighting forces, the Ground Component just happens to be slightly less incompetent than the IAF or the Navy.

I'm calling on you to back up your claims on the ground component and AF.

You seem to fail at realizing that saying "they didn't succeed" does not constitute evidence as to that.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I'm calling on you to back up your claims on the ground component and AF.

You seem to fail at realizing that saying "they didn't succeed" does not constitute evidence as to that.

When your leaders fail to gather sufficient intelligence to set proper goals and a means to achieve them, they are not doing their job competently. Fast roping into an unknown crowd of what you believe may be terrorist sympathizers is not a competent move nor is misidentifying an allied ship as an enemy one of a completely different size and shape. Even if you want to argue that things may have changed the fact that Israeli pilots fired missiles off the bow of German ships and overflew a no-fly zone established by peacekeepers would indicate standards have not improved in the quality of pilots or their leaders.

[Ziggy Stardust]

When your leaders fail to gather sufficient intelligence to set proper goals and a means to achieve them, they are not doing their job competently.

Poor leadership =/= poorly trained, as per your original claim.

[Ritterin Sophia]

When your leaders fail to gather sufficient intelligence to set proper goals and a means to achieve them, they are not doing their job competently.

Poor leadership =/= poorly trained, as per your original claim.

Yes, it does. Since your officers are a part of those arms and are supposed to be trained on how to properly lead their men and prosecute a war, if they do not then they and their former officers are at fault. Unless of course you want to say the war was micromanaged by the civilian leadership?

[The Grim Squeaker]

When your leaders fail to gather sufficient intelligence to set proper goals and a means to achieve them, they are not doing their job competently.

Poor leadership =/= poorly trained, as per your original claim.

Yes, it does. Since your officers are a part of those arms and are supposed to be trained on how to properly lead their men and prosecute a war, if they do not then they and their former officers are at fault. Unless of course you want to say the war was micromanaged by the civilian leadership?

So, using Chimpus the younger as a reflection on the quality of the United states military is fine by you?

[Vanzetti]

IMO, evaluating the entire armed force by a performance of a special force in a politically charged situatuon while facing non-coms is incorrect.

[Vanzetti]

So you mean 'murder civilians and then manufacture a quickly dismissed lie about weapons'?

They could kill much more than 9 if it was the intention, you know.

[Ritterin Sophia]

So, using Chimpus the younger as a reflection on the quality of the United states military is fine by you?

Actually that is a lot worse than the military simply being incompetent. It's why I asked if Ziggy wanted to say that the Israeli civilian leadership micromanaged the war, like George the Dimmer and Darth Cheney did; at that point it becomes reflective of the voter base (a much larger population than simply the military) at the time and in America's case, it's no secret that America's voting population is made up largely of mindless no-nothings willing to believe the most outrageous bullshit. That's the problem of Democracy, when the government fucks up, the people are ultimately responsible for voting them into office.

So if you want to say that Israeli leadership constantly micromanages military matters then it makes the citizens themselves look bad, and if it did it still means those particular commandos can't be called competent for fast-roping into a mob, which was your claim that you failed to back up.

[Vanzetti]

'Israel' and 'better trained' go together like 'supersonic' and 'helicopter gunship'. The IDF is a joke in comparison to other western fighting forces, the Ground Component just happens to be slightly less incompetent than the IAF or the Navy.

I love the way you change the subject.

Don`t you think commandos will be better trained in shooting (forget anything else) than an average soldier?

[Ritterin Sophia]

I love the way you change the subject.

Don`t you think commandos will be better trained in shooting (forget anything else) than an average soldier?

One would also think snake-eaters would be better trained in when to use fast-roping than the average soldier. They quite clearly were not.

[Vanzetti]

One would also think snake-eaters would be better trained in when to use fast-roping than the average soldier. They quite clearly were not.

Soldiers don`t decide when and where to fast-rope, they follow orders.

[Aaron]

The fault for the disastrous boarding falls to whoever decided to use a single chopper and not drop some CS, flashbangs or hose the deck down with a firehose from the ship. That should be somewhere above the Commando's pay grade.

[Elfdart]

Today's winner for sucking Netanyahu's cock is Rep. Brad Sherman, who not only wants Americans who take part in the relief convoys prosecuted as "terrorists", but is also doing his best impression of Walter Duranty, claiming that there's no malnutrition in Gaza.
.

Speaking of terrorism, did Israel finally showed some evidence that Freedom Flotilla had terrorist ties to Al-Qaida or does it remain with baseless claims?

Actually, the IDF quietly "scrubbed" that horseshit off their site.

[Elfdart]

Russia Today is reporting that contact with the MV Rachel Corrie was lost an hour ago and has not been resumed and that nobody aboard is reachable by radio, satellite phone, etc, with no distress messages having been broadcast.

What I don't understand is why anyone doesn't try agreeing to dock at Ashdod and then break off when about twelve or fifteen miles off and then make like hell for Gaza and beach themselves inside the border. It would only be about a fifteen mile run and at eighteen knots with the engines all out they'd only have to resist Israeli attempts to seize control of the bridge for 45 minutes or so. Of course, I expect these people to be as naive and stupid as Sea Shepherd, so I guess no surprise they haven't tried anything more creative.

Better yet, if they really wanted to get aid into Gaza, file a regular plan for a freighter carrying cargo to the port of Ashdod and then do the above.

Because (a) freighters and passenger ships usually can't go that fast and (b) even if they could, they can't outrun coast guard cutters or helicopters. You're also making the assumption that this effort is only about getting these ships through the blockade -which is like assuming that black students who did sit-ins at lunch counters were only interested in being served lunch. Or that Gandhi and his supporters just wanted salt.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Russia Today is reporting that contact with the MV Rachel Corrie was lost an hour ago and has not been resumed and that nobody aboard is reachable by radio, satellite phone, etc, with no distress messages having been broadcast.

What I don't understand is why anyone doesn't try agreeing to dock at Ashdod and then break off when about twelve or fifteen miles off and then make like hell for Gaza and beach themselves inside the border. It would only be about a fifteen mile run and at eighteen knots with the engines all out they'd only have to resist Israeli attempts to seize control of the bridge for 45 minutes or so. Of course, I expect these people to be as naive and stupid as Sea Shepherd, so I guess no surprise they haven't tried anything more creative.

Better yet, if they really wanted to get aid into Gaza, file a regular plan for a freighter carrying cargo to the port of Ashdod and then do the above.

Because (a) freighters and passenger ships usually can't go that fast and (b) even if they could, they can't outrun coast guard cutters or helicopters. You're also making the assumption that this effort is only about getting these ships through the blockade -which is like assuming that black students who did sit-ins at lunch counters were only interested in being served lunch. Or that Gandhi and his supporters just wanted salt.

Yup.
They can also bring the supplies to the dock, have it inspected and then taken to Gaza via land transport (as was offered to the original flotilla by the Israeli government in advance, in addition to this one).
But where's the publicity in that?

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

One would also think snake-eaters would be better trained in when to use fast-roping than the average soldier. They quite clearly were not.

Soldiers don`t decide when and where to fast-rope, they follow orders.

Which means some idiot in their chain of command told them to fast rope into a crowd where you can't secure your drop zone.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Some freighters can get up that fast, though I grant not the beat up hulks they're usually buying because they can't afford anything more. Was thinking more in terms of an effort bankrolled by the Turkish government to run the blockade. Also, docking in Israel means concrete will be seized; and it would be just as much publicity, I think, to ground a freighter on the Gaza coast successfully. And it took the Israelis some time to secure the Turkish liner. Anyway, the point is that for a blockade to be legally binding it has to be effective, and ultimately if they keep just running blockade runners onto the coast again and again it would humiliate Israel, render the blockade ineffective, and be essentially guaranteed to bring it to an end. The more casualties and ships sunk in the process the better (I mean we all know the IHH people were gunning to be martyrs, so getting killed is an understood risk of these people).

Of course, the fact that there wasn't a more sophisticated attempt like that does tend to suggest, conversely, that the effort was not bankrolled by the Turkish government to humiliate Israel like some Israel supporters have claimed. Which is the greatest use of the thought exercise.