[avianmosquito] Headshots: a lesson in Stupidity

[Losonti Tokash]

You're a retard, look up coo/counter coo injuries.

Just a minor thing here, but you're looking for "coup/counter-coup."

You're a retard, different rounds have different characteristics in the trajectories. Even if your bullet doesn't deliever large amounts of momentum itself, it'll sheer off parts of bone and connective tissue that then rams through other tissue inside the body. Organ displacement, especially when it comes to brain tissue, does more damage than poking holes in same tissue.

It's not even necessary to directly contact the skull to cause brain damage. Strong vibrations can essentially shake the brain apart.

You're a retard. Pick up an anatomy book sometime. Causing tissue damage along the skull will produce inflammation which will push down on the skull, the meninges, and the brain; causing displacement of brain matter, increasing pressure upon other brain matter, crushing it and causing more damage. Does it really matter if your brain stem is still running your automatic nervous functions if your cerebrum is all fucked up and nothing but butter milk?

Not to mention the fact that he somehow thinks that bleeding out kills faster than direct damage to brain tissue. What the hell does he think a lack of circulation to the brain does?

Hmm, I'll have to check myself, but the liver should be in the abdominal cavity, below the diaphragm.

Correct.

You're talking to Marines, soldiers, nurses, and such in this thread. Don't insult our intelligence with your bullshit.

In my particular case, an EMT. I daresay that there are a considerable number of experts arrayed against him, but it doesn't matter because he totally talked to some dudes at one point.

[Kuroji]

To start with, I should bring in my credentials to assure you I'm not just some pissed-off 13 year old nerd spewing pure rage for no good reason with no knowledge to support it.

[a whole bunch of shit that doesn't make a lot of sense]

You have no credentials. You're just some pissed-off 13 year old nerd spewing pure rage for no good reason with no knowledge to support it.

What were you trying to do when you started this thread, exactly? I am extremely curious.

[CaptainChewbacca]

What were you trying to do when you started this thread, exactly? I am extremely curious.

Skeeter has spent 12 years in his amateur efforts to collect information on ballistics and head trauma, and wanted to discuss it with us so we would recognize his brilliance.

I daresay at some point he loaded up a cooler with sub sandwiches and drove out to talk to a dozen PhD-Plus guys to corroborate his theories, so they're perfectly legit.

obscure joke, go ask the mods

[higbvuyb]

Doing internal damage along tissue, assuming your bullet ricochets around the skull, invites an immune response where inflammation occurs, increasing pressure on the organ and causing organ displacement. The mass of the brain will push against itself, crushing parts of it, causing more inflammation and more pressure and more damage. You're a retard.

You might be overstating the inflammation issue. The damage has to be inside your skull for it to really be relevant to the brain, and by then you're already dead, whether by brain damage or bleeding.
AFAIK the inflammation itself isn't going to be rapidly fatal because the CSF, etc, can compensate, and things like meningitis are only fatal over prolonged periods.

No they don't. Granted, the plural cavity can't take that much change in pressure either,

Unlike the brain high pressure shouldn't even be a problem considering that the chest cavity can expand and contract. You can still change the pressure in the chest cavity using breathing motions and the only problem should be when the volume of fluid is excessive. However, a hole in there can certainly cause a lack of pressure and collapse a lung.

And a shot through the brain stem will stop all orders from the brain for the heart to pump at all, or the lungs to breath, etc... So fucking what?

Cells in the heart can trigger pumping without signals from the brain.


Anyway, the OP has a bit of a point considering that a headshot isn't actually the be-all-and-end-all of shots, and a shot to the heart can be more fatal. However, he's obviously taken it too far.

[Knife]

You're a retard, look up coo/counter coo injuries.

Just a minor thing here, but you're looking for "coup/counter-coup."

Oops. Thanks for the fix.

You might be overstating the inflammation issue. The damage has to be inside your skull for it to really be relevant to the brain, and by then you're already dead, whether by brain damage or bleeding.
AFAIK the inflammation itself isn't going to be rapidly fatal because the CSF, etc, can compensate, and things like meningitis are only fatal over prolonged periods.

Define rapidly. Hemotomas putting pressure on the brain will continue to cause the patient to lose orientation and decline to death. Sure, they don't 'kill' you instantly, but every minute they're putting pressure on your nogg'n, you're losing brain function.

Unlike the brain high pressure shouldn't even be a problem considering that the chest cavity can expand and contract. You can still change the pressure in the chest cavity using breathing motions and the only problem should be when the volume of fluid is excessive. However, a hole in there can certainly cause a lack of pressure and collapse a lung.

Problem here is if you increase the pressure with fluid, as you exhale the fluid take's the place of the lung's space decreasing tidal volume of the lung. There just isn't that much room in the plural cavity.

Cells in the heart can trigger pumping without signals from the brain.

Err...S/A node? Yeah, it helps with heart rhythm, but that's not quite the same as the brain ordering your heart to work.

[Mayabird]

My favorite part of his post is where he says that most of the brain is useless, wasted space with nothing important.

A hemispherectomy (removal of one of the cerebral hemispheres) is a rare procedure done for patients with severe, untreatable epilepsy. That's not to say that the brain has a lot of wasted space--if that were the case, then having two lungs is also terrible waste of valuable tissue--but there is a fair bit of built in redundancy. This doesn't affect the insanity of mosquito's position though; as Shroom pointed out earlier, a bullet wound to the brain != meticulously careful neurosurgery.

Yeah, but that's only done with very young patients (under age 10) because the brain is more plastic at that age (better able to rewire areas 'meant' for one thing for another task, the same way that blind people use the visual areas of the brain to process touch) and can recover that much trauma better. Just a little note.

[Ghost Rider]

What were you trying to do when you started this thread, exactly? I am extremely curious.

Skeeter has spent 12 years in his amateur efforts to collect information on ballistics and head trauma, and wanted to discuss it with us so we would recognize his brilliance.

I daresay at some point he loaded up a cooler with sub sandwiches and drove out to talk to a dozen PhD-Plus guys to corroborate his theories, so they're perfectly legit.

obscure joke, go ask the mods

Remember he had ADULT DRINKS! At least Stewie gave pictures AND claimed he was paid by secret men in brown paper bags, which meant he couldn't claim it as income! Skeeter is just your average blowhard.

[Vehrec]

On the subject of the delicacy of the brain, I think a special amount of attention should be payed to the Ischemic Cascade, a process that is caused by insufficient bloodflow to the brain and the chemical consequences of the extremely needy neural tissue throwing a fit. What is important to this discussion, is the step whereby a dying neuron spills toxins and normally strictly restricted neurotransmitters into intracellular spaces. Now, it seems to me that if a nerve cell is crushed or burst due to pressure, then it's probably going to do something similar. So even cells that are initially going to survive can still be killed by their dying neighbors, creating a wave of destruction spreading through the brain. Even if the inflammation and shock damage don't kill you, your own brain chemistry can still do you in, or at least further impair function.

I should also note that a 'heart shot' is harder to achieve than a headshot, since the head is several times larger than the heart in all aspects. Instant death due to thoraxic damage is quite a bit more unlikely than due to a headshot.

[PeZook]

On energy required to penetrate the human skull, there have been cases of death caused by airguns penetrating the skull. Offhand, I managed to find record of one death in 2003 where one Tomasz Kamiński fatally shot his 47 year old mother in the head. The pellet went clear through the skull.

It was fired from a legal 4.5mm airgun with a muzzle energy of 17 joules. Experiments performed at the Criminology department of the Mikołaj Kopernik University in February 2003 confirmed that pellets from such airguns can penetrate human skulls, car doors and thigh bones.

If an airgun can do that, I'd really advise against trying to see if one can survive a headshot from a 9mm pistol (thirty times more energy on barely two times the bullet diameter),

[Terralthra]

I was hoping someone would glance over my maths for errors; it's been a while since I did basic geometry. Most of my math these days is in statistics and linear algebra.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I was hoping someone would glance over my maths for errors; it's been a while since I did basic geometry. Most of my math these days is in statistics and linear algebra.

The math looks solid. Good work.

[Norade]

On energy required to penetrate the human skull, there have been cases of death caused by airguns penetrating the skull. Offhand, I managed to find record of one death in 2003 where one Tomasz Kamiński fatally shot his 47 year old mother in the head. The pellet went clear through the skull.

It was fired from a legal 4.5mm airgun with a muzzle energy of 17 joules. Experiments performed at the Criminology department of the Mikołaj Kopernik University in February 2003 confirmed that pellets from such airguns can penetrate human skulls, car doors and thigh bones.

If an airgun can do that, I'd really advise against trying to see if one can survive a headshot from a 9mm pistol (thirty times more energy on barely two times the bullet diameter),

Holy fuck! That is scary shit, no wonder they don't want kids shooting each other with those things anymore.

Also, now that I have a legit reason to post here I can finally comment on what a fucking idiot Skeeter is once again.

[Admiral Valdemar]

On the subject of the delicacy of the brain, I think a special amount of attention should be payed to the Ischemic Cascade, a process that is caused by insufficient bloodflow to the brain and the chemical consequences of the extremely needy neural tissue throwing a fit. What is important to this discussion, is the step whereby a dying neuron spills toxins and normally strictly restricted neurotransmitters into intracellular spaces. Now, it seems to me that if a nerve cell is crushed or burst due to pressure, then it's probably going to do something similar. So even cells that are initially going to survive can still be killed by their dying neighbors, creating a wave of destruction spreading through the brain. Even if the inflammation and shock damage don't kill you, your own brain chemistry can still do you in, or at least further impair function.

I should also note that a 'heart shot' is harder to achieve than a headshot, since the head is several times larger than the heart in all aspects. Instant death due to thoraxic damage is quite a bit more unlikely than due to a headshot.

The heart is also one tough muscle to do irreparable damage to with, say, a glancing long range shot. Stopping it from blunt trauma may happen before you blow it to pieces, depending on the round and range and physical stature etc.

That said, there is a remarkable degree of damage control and redundancy in the brain given certain circumstances, such as the hemisphere issues discussed above or the likes of Phineas Gage. These are, however, exceptions and very rare, and generally, have no bearing on this matter of disabling an opponent. Even if they have only one hemisphere damaged, they may live, but they won't be a threat in the here and now. A blow to the head from anything with real force will be sure to deal with any keen opponent.

[higbvuyb]

Define rapidly. Hemotomas putting pressure on the brain will continue to cause the patient to lose orientation and decline to death. Sure, they don't 'kill' you instantly, but every minute they're putting pressure on your nogg'n, you're losing brain function.

Bleeding is not inflammation, however. If you're going to say that inflammation is likely to cause you to die rapidly (use your own definition of rapidly), feel free to provide evidence.

Problem here is if you increase the pressure with fluid, as you exhale the fluid take's the place of the lung's space decreasing tidal volume of the lung. There just isn't that much room in the plural cavity.

As I said, unless the volume is excessive, there is no problem. If you're losing that much blood into your chest cavity, you have other problems to worry about, certainly.

Err...S/A node? Yeah, it helps with heart rhythm, but that's not quite the same as the brain ordering your heart to work.

The SA node doesn't 'help with heart rhythm' so much as 'generate the heart rhythm'. Not that you need the SA node, either.

[Norade]

Define rapidly. Hemotomas putting pressure on the brain will continue to cause the patient to lose orientation and decline to death. Sure, they don't 'kill' you instantly, but every minute they're putting pressure on your nogg'n, you're losing brain function.

Bleeding is not inflammation, however. If you're going to say that inflammation is likely to cause you to die rapidly (use your own definition of rapidly), feel free to provide evidence.

Are you really saying that excessive bleeding in the brain won't cause a pressure difference? Doubly so if they bullet doesn't exit and the hole isn't facing the ground.

Problem here is if you increase the pressure with fluid, as you exhale the fluid take's the place of the lung's space decreasing tidal volume of the lung. There just isn't that much room in the plural cavity.

As I said, unless the volume is excessive, there is no problem. If you're losing that much blood into your chest cavity, you have other problems to worry about, certainly.

Of course, but it's still an none trivial issue as it makes things more complicated even if you do get first aid right away.

Err...S/A node? Yeah, it helps with heart rhythm, but that's not quite the same as the brain ordering your heart to work.

The SA node doesn't 'help with heart rhythm' so much as 'generate the heart rhythm'. Not that you need the SA node, either.

Either way losing that is sure to cause you long term side effects and aid in killing you.

[Kuroji]

Define rapidly. Hemotomas putting pressure on the brain will continue to cause the patient to lose orientation and decline to death. Sure, they don't 'kill' you instantly, but every minute they're putting pressure on your nogg'n, you're losing brain function.

Bleeding is not inflammation, however. If you're going to say that inflammation is likely to cause you to die rapidly (use your own definition of rapidly), feel free to provide evidence.

Are you really saying that excessive bleeding in the brain won't cause a pressure difference? Doubly so if they bullet doesn't exit and the hole isn't facing the ground.

The problem with that is that if a bullet goes through your gray matter, cavitation results. A bullet going through is usually destructive enough to cause a great deal of damage. Also, when the blood-brain barrier is broken you've got a near-guaranteed kill; it's rare for that not to happen. The brain gets bounced around, you get blood inside where it doesn't belong, and yeah, that's going to put a lot of pressure on the brain.

[higbvuyb]

Are you really saying that excessive bleeding in the brain won't cause a pressure difference?

No, not really. That's why I said "Bleeding is not inflammation". This is because bleeding is different to inflammation.

Doubly so if they bullet doesn't exit and the hole isn't facing the ground.

If there's a hole of any relevance that's going to make the pressure less of a problem.

Of course, but it's still an none trivial issue as it makes things more complicated even if you do get first aid right away.

This argument is being conducted in the absurd context of the OP in which you're trying to kill someone as fast as possible. Something you can survive for a while is certainly a trivial issue in this context.

Either way losing that is sure to cause you long term side effects and aid in killing you.

Again, in the context of this argument, long term side effects are irrelevant. Also, you're missing the point, which is that the brain isn't necessary. the 'aid in killing you' part is irrelevant because without a brain, you're going to run out of oxygen and die.
Obviously, running out of oxygen and dying is going to be fatal.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Also, you're missing the point, which is that the brain isn't necessary.

What the hell are you talking about? I honestly cannot figure out what you are trying to argue.

[Simon_Jester]

Again, in the context of this argument, long term side effects are irrelevant. Also, you're missing the point, which is that the brain isn't necessary. the 'aid in killing you' part is irrelevant because without a brain, you're going to run out of oxygen and die.
Obviously, running out of oxygen and dying is going to be fatal.

Without a brain, you're still dead, even if you somehow had unlimited supplies of oxygen to run the rest of your body.

So "the brain isn't necessary" is nonsense.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Brain isn't necessary? WTF? It's one thing to say that a non-instantly fatal hit to the head would allow the person in question to operate briefly afterwards, before critical functions are fully terminated. It's another to say the most fundamentally important organ in the body is useless.

[Knife]

Again, in the context of this argument, long term side effects are irrelevant. Also, you're missing the point, which is that the brain isn't necessary. the 'aid in killing you' part is irrelevant because without a brain, you're going to run out of oxygen and die.
Obviously, running out of oxygen and dying is going to be fatal.

I'm a little confused as well, as to the direction of the argument. From where I sit, and correct me if I'm wrong, the argument is; 1) shooting someone in the heart/center mass kills them faster/more efficient than a similar shot to the head, thus being more effective means of death. 2) by shooting someone in the heart, the act of stopping the heart and/or bleeding out the person from massive arterial damage, provides brain death quicker than brain death from tissue damage in the brain. 3) damage to the brain with increased intracranial pressure that incapacitates a person and later dies is less efficient than bleeding them out with lack of blood pressure with torso gun shot wounds.

As far as hemorhaging is not inflammation, you are correct; however, as to cranial edema and inflammation due add to ICP that leads to displacement of tissue, short of quoting a pathophysiology book, I'm not sure how to 'prove' that. Google fu?

http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... act/99/1/4

Pathophysiology of traumatic brain injury
C. Werner* and K. Engelhard

Klinik für Anästhesiologie, der Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz, Langenbeckstrasse 1, D-55131 Mainz, Germany

* Corresponding author. E-mail: werner@anaesthesie.klinik.uni-mainz.de

The knowledge of the pathophysiology after traumatic head injury is necessary for adequate and patient-oriented treatment. As the primary insult, which represents the direct mechanical damage, cannot be therapeutically influenced, target of the treatment is the limitation of the secondary damage (delayed non-mechanical damage). It is influenced by changes in cerebral blood flow (hypo- and hyperperfusion), impairment of cerebrovascular autoregulation, cerebral metabolic dysfunction and inadequate cerebral oxygenation. Furthermore, excitotoxic cell damage and inflammation may lead to apoptotic and necrotic cell death. Understanding the multidimensional cascade of secondary brain injury offers differentiated therapeutic options.

Bolding mine.

Interesting article about viticms of bomb blasts who suffer brain inflammation without physical blunt force trauma to the head.

Another article that studies the inflammation effect in trauma patients. Interestingly enough, the study they points to mitochondria released into the blood stream from dead cells from trauma as the genesis of the immune response.

Anyway, long story short; will bleeding out be a faster death than whacked in the head and 20 minutes to an hour later having swelling in your head squish your brain into unconsciousness? Sure. I concede that if that is the argument. If the argument is, though, that if you shoot person A in the heart and person B in the head, person A drops to the ground and dies while person B keeps fighting like Rambo for two more hours before he lapses into a comma and dies, is stupidity at it's highest. Each senario is rather simplistic; however, and don't take into account many factors. Just having head trauma enough to increase ICP means you've already disrupted the brain tissue causing primary damage, the secondary damage from the swelling comes later. It also matters what you've damaged in the brain, and everyone here is talking like just the cerebrum is getting hit, and not something like the brain stem (which would bring a quicker death than the heart) or cerebellum, or some other structure.

Edit last few sentences, wanted to hit preview and hit submit instead.

[LadyTevar]

Sent to HOS, and the title changed for Truthiness

[Serafina]

Yay, truthiness.
And Yay for HOSing.

Oh, and avianmosquito - stop running away, you cowardly piece of stupidity-dipped shit!
We have crushed your every word - propably without the least bit of actual effort.
So stop running away and then starting a new thread - you are not going to impress anyone by increasing your volume of brainshit.
Admit it that you do not know anything - that's the first step to learning something.
Otherwise, piss of and wank on somewhere else.

[Terralthra]

The only number I can find for the impact strength of bone is 0.106 joules/mm^2. ( source, PDF )

The bullet impact I calculated above was 135 joules in the normal direction, over a conservative estimate of 35.796 mm^2. This is roughly 3.78 joules/mm^2, and roughly 37 times the impact strength energy absorption of bone. Oops.

[Stuart]

This is what a rifle bullet does when it hits the skull.



Note the large hole with the pieces of bone blown through the brain. Note also the fractures radiating out from the impact point.