Misc 40K questions.

[Darksider]

So I've been speed-reading through the Gaunt's Ghosts Omnibus', and they've raised a couple of questions about that particular universe that I can't seem to find answers for in any of Connor's analysis threads. Rather than spam up an existing thread with something that might be considered off-topic, i'm making one thread to ask them all.

1. Can/do Space Marines have wives or children? Obviously, being a monastic-style warrior order would prohibit having families, but is it physically possible for them to do so? In a flashback to his time in the Schola Progenum, one of Gaunt's mates claims his father was a space marine, but one of the teachers says he was talking out of his ass. In the first Dawn of War, Isador Akios claims that Gabriel Angelos "betrayed his own family" when he ordered an Exterminatus on Cyrene, but he's been a Space Marine long enough for any relatives to have died. Is it physically possible for Space Marines to reproduce, and are there any chapters that allow their members to have wives and children?

2. In on of the books in The Founding Omnibus, Gaunt mentions having fought alongside Space marines in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. What chapters and companies were deployed to aid Warmaster Slaydo?

3. Does anyone ever actually kill that fucking rat bastard Lijjah Cuu, or does he just keep scraping by and murdering much more likable characters than himself?

[Serafina]

1. Can/do Space Marines have wives or children? Obviously, being a monastic-style warrior order would prohibit having families, but is it physically possible for them to do so? In a flashback to his time in the Schola Progenum, one of Gaunt's mates claims his father was a space marine, but one of the teachers says he was talking out of his ass. In the first Dawn of War, Isador Akios claims that Gabriel Angelos "betrayed his own family" when he ordered an Exterminatus on Cyrene, but he's been a Space Marine long enough for any relatives to have died. Is it physically possible for Space Marines to reproduce, and are there any chapters that allow their members to have wives and children?

No - there is no canonical instance where a Space Marine had children.
I might forget something, but it is not a regular occurence at any rate - and their enhancements are not in their own genetics, so the child would not be a Space Marine anyway.

The kid was merely talking out of his ass, and Angelos family consisted of his parents, siblings etc.

I don't know the rest now/don't want to spoil you.

[Srelex]

Space Marines are also nine foot tall. Without going into too much detail, would that make reproduction a bit of a physical challenge with most humans?

[Ford Prefect]

1. Can/do Space Marines have wives or children? Obviously, being a monastic-style warrior order would prohibit having families, but is it physically possible for them to do so? In a flashback to his time in the Schola Progenum, one of Gaunt's mates claims his father was a space marine, but one of the teachers says he was talking out of his ass. In the first Dawn of War, Isador Akios claims that Gabriel Angelos "betrayed his own family" when he ordered an Exterminatus on Cyrene, but he's been a Space Marine long enough for any relatives to have died. Is it physically possible for Space Marines to reproduce, and are there any chapters that allow their members to have wives and children?

To my knowledge, Space Marines have never been known to have children; they're probably not even compatible with baseline humans, given how radical the changes involved are (and it's pretty heavily hammered home that Space Marines are 'no longer men'). However, this isn't to say that Space Marines can't have families, in the sense that a Space Marine musth ave had parents, and there are undoubtedly Space Marines with brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews. I'm not entirely sure where I picked it up, but it's my understanding that large families within Ultramar take pride in having Space Marine relatives, and family lines turn out lineages of Space Marines. That's likely what Akios is referring to with regards to Angelos: if not his brothers and sisters (though conceivably they could still be alive through rejuvenation) then their children, or their children's children.

However, I doubt there are any with wives. They don't have a lot of free time.

[Black Admiral]

2. In on of the books in The Founding Omnibus, Gaunt mentions having fought alongside Space marines in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. What chapters and companies were deployed to aid Warmaster Slaydo?

The Iron Snakes, Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard are all known to have contributed forces to the Sabbat Worlds Crusade; there were other Chapters that contributed forces, but those four are the only ones specifically named that I can recall. Which companies (or squads, in the case of the Iron Snakes) of them were deployed in the SWC aren't mentioned.

3. Does anyone ever actually kill that fucking rat bastard Lijjah Cuu, or does he just keep scraping by and murdering much more likable characters than himself?

Oh, Cuu will get his just desserts. How and when, heap-big spoiler territory.

I'm not entirely sure where I picked it up, but it's my understanding that large families within Ultramar take pride in having Space Marine relatives, and family lines turn out lineages of Space Marines.

That's mentioned in Graham McNeill's Ultramarines novels - the main character thereof, Uriel Ventris, is a blood relative (although precisely what relation isn't ever stated that I can recall) to one of the Ultras 1st Company Sergeants killed during the battle of Macragge (1st Tyrannic War).

[Lupercal]

3. Does anyone ever actually kill that fucking rat bastard Lijjah Cuu, or does he just keep scraping by and murdering much more likable characters than himself?

Sure as sure.

[Night_stalker]

As far as I know, Astartes are physically capable of having kids, but what woman in her right mind would fall in love with one?

It says he secured about 4 or 5 Chapters to contribute troops to the Crusade

oh yes he fething gets Imperial justice. Do you really think Abnett would allow a character like Cuu to go unpunished for too long?

[Simon_Jester]

oh yes he fething gets Imperial justice. Do you really think Abnett would allow a character like Cuu to go unpunished for too long?

Yes. Fifteen minutes after his first murder was too fething long.

[Connor MacLeod]

First: If we're talking about events that happen in the Ghosts stories, shouldn't this thread have a big fucking "spoilers" in it for some people?

Second: Since BA covered the second, I'll cover the first. Basically, there's a couple reasons this never showed up in any of my analysis - the first being that my early stuff is in a state of indefinite revision (time pending, as always) and the second being I think you read far too much into it.

Ibram Gaunt turned. "My mother died when I was born. My father was a colonel in the Imperial Guard. He was lost last autumn in an action against the orks on Kentaur."
Blenner stopped scrubbing and got up to join the other boy. "Sounds juicy!" he began.
"Juicy?"
"Guard heroics and all that? So what happened?"
Ibram Gaunt turned to regard him and Blenner flinched at the depth of the gaze. "Why are you so interested? How did your parents die to bring you here?"
Blenner backed off a step. "My father was a Space Marine. He died killing a thousand daemons on Futhark. You'll have heard of that noble victory, no doubt. My mother, when she knew he was dead, took her own life out of love."
"I see," Gaunt said slowly.

See, in context, this really isn't a bit of factual information. It's just a child's boasting and isn't meant to be taken literally. (It's basically the 40K equivalent of a child saying "Yah well my dad is Superman so NYAH!").

Space Marines don't have children or familes, because its not part of their purpose and would just be a distraction. The Astartes are made purely for war. They may or may not be capable of having sex (undecided) but appear to have no sex drive or urge to procreate at all (may be suppressed.) And even if they could have kids (and an un-augmented female could survive) it wouldn't mean anything since the gene-seed enhancements don't pass on genetically. But really, a Space Marine's schedule and life don't leave any time for having kids or family (they're either training, or praying, or maintaining their gear, or in preparation for a battle or whatever. They literalyl get only a few hours a day tops to themselves.)

As far as Dawn of War and Gabriel Angelos go.. as far as I know we dont know how long Angelos has been a Space Marine or much detail about his family (I know about the short story pertaining to the death of Cyrene but I haven't really gotten around to covering it yet.) but "family" probably doesn't mean that he HAS a family as a space marine.. it probably means the family he left behind when he became an Astartes. Since Cyrene was a recruiting locale for the Blood Ravens, it stands to reason Gabriel may have kept in contact with them (or at least known they still lived.)

[andrewgpaul]

Spoiler from the Blood Ravens short story
Spoiler

The chief rebel on Cyrene is Gabriel Angelos' father.

The story takes place just before the Blood Ravens depart for Tartarus (the campaign in Dawn of War).

[Darksider]

Ok, Just finished Sabbat Martyr, and Spoiler

watching Cuu get it from Larkin was amusing, but the fact that he took yet another interesting character with him is annoying as hell

, but the book raised another question.

During the space battle, Imperial Lightning fighters engage the chaos fleet in the outer reaches of the Herodar system. I thought Lightnings and Thunderbolts were atmospheric only, and that the Imperium had dedicated interceptor fighters that were much larger multi-crew craft (sort of like the Longswords from Halo). Are Lightnings, Thunderbolts, and Marauders capable of space action as well as atmospheric?

[Serafina]

During the space battle, Imperial Lightning fighters engage the chaos fleet in the outer reaches of the Herodar system. I thought Lightnings and Thunderbolts were atmospheric only, and that the Imperium had dedicated interceptor fighters that were much larger multi-crew craft (sort of like the Longswords from Halo). Are Lightnings, Thunderbolts, and Marauders capable of space action as well as atmospheric?

Well - if they do so in that book, then yes, apparently.

Given that most STK-engines can operate on all kinds of fuel (ranging from wood to antimatter) and that some of the fuels seem to already be oxygenated, making them space-capable might be as simple as using different fuels and perhaps making the compartmens airtight (tough they really should be already).

Pure space fighters are likely more specialized, being less aerodynamic etc., with more fuel for longer ranges and whatnot, therefore justifying their existence.

[Black Admiral]

There are variants of the T-Bolt, Lightning & Marauder for aerospace use, and ones for deep space service. The latter are significantly larger, more powerful, and equipped with things like shield generators and so on vice the atmospheric-only variants.

[Pantastic]

It's pretty clear in the background that Space Marines don't have any desire for women. While some of the stricter chapters like Ultramarines or Black Templars follow the Codex schedule that only leaves the marine 15 minutes free per day, there are plenty that are less strict, and some that are downright wild. The Space Wolves, a first founding chapter who get their own official supplement book, act like Vikings and throw huge drinking parties. If SMs had any carnal urges at all, I think that Space Wolves would include plenty of wenches in with their drinking and friendly fighting, and they don't. Chaos Marines obviously don't follow the Codex, but the only Chaos marines shown getting frisky are Slaanesh worshipers, and I'm pretty sure it's always with demonic enhancements, not base equipment.

I think there's also something in the first Horus Heresy book where a Remembrancer notes that marine naughty bits don't work at all and in Fulgrim where Slaanesh demons specifically give them the ability to go wild, but I don't have the books with me to check.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, that's probably it.

[starfury]

I know it was simpler with the Tau, who seem to only have Space versions of the their atmospheric designs, The barracuda, Tigershark and Manta, and don't have any specialized Pure space fighters. Thought I wonder How does the Manta compare in terms of sheer size to the imperium space fighters, since the Fluff rate it as one of the largest traditional flyers period.

[Ford Prefect]

If SMs had any carnal urges at all, I think that Space Wolves would include plenty of wenches in with their drinking and friendly fighting, and they don't.

I have this funny feeling that Ragnar and his mates actually talk about going to pick up chicks at some point while they're on Terra, but I get the impression I might just be inventing the notion.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

In the second Space Wolf book, Ragnar does start to get some tingly feelings for the hot, female Inquistor.

I'm pretty sure that earlier fluff, such as 1st edition, makes mention of the Ultramarines keeping female serfs on hand in an implied sexual role. In fact, the term used may have been "chapter concubines". The Salamanders supposedly retire to take part in the community and have families of their own after a full term of service. Considering how old this fluff is, I'm not sure that it still counts, but it would certainly make things more interesting.

[loomer]

The Salamanders thing was 3rd - or maybe 4th - ed stuff, and honestly, that's all still pretty valid now that a new edition comes every few years. I think the implication though was that they marry and maintain a regular family without having any actual children - they probably adopt those of slain Arbites, planetary guard, natural disaster victims and even maybe - in keeping with their big focus on community and helping the weak - from Hive worlds like Armageddon.

[andrewgpaul]

I know it was simpler with the Tau, who seem to only have Space versions of the their atmospheric designs, The barracuda, Tigershark and Manta, and don't have any specialized Pure space fighters. Thought I wonder How does the Manta compare in terms of sheer size to the imperium space fighters, since the Fluff rate it as one of the largest traditional flyers period.

I don't know of any official size estimates of the Imperial Fury interceptors and Starhawk bombers - although First and Only mentions a Faustus-class interceptor, about 100 metres long and a crew of 4 plus an Astropath - but IIRC, one of the game designers for Battlefleet Gothic stated he thought they were about the size of medium and large airliners respectively. Having said that, that would make a Manta about equivalent to one of them, and yet in-game, they're one to a base instead of 5 or 3, and get a special save for being tougher (as do Thunderhawk Gunships) - I suppose various game designers don't speak to each other much.

[white_rabbit]

I know it was simpler with the Tau, who seem to only have Space versions of the their atmospheric designs, The barracuda, Tigershark and Manta, and don't have any specialized Pure space fighters. Thought I wonder How does the Manta compare in terms of sheer size to the imperium space fighters, since the Fluff rate it as one of the largest traditional flyers period.

I don't know of any official size estimates of the Imperial Fury interceptors and Starhawk bombers - although First and Only mentions a Faustus-class interceptor, about 100 metres long and a crew of 4 plus an Astropath - but IIRC, one of the game designers for Battlefleet Gothic stated he thought they were about the size of medium and large airliners respectively. Having said that, that would make a Manta about equivalent to one of them, and yet in-game, they're one to a base instead of 5 or 3, and get a special save for being tougher (as do Thunderhawk Gunships) - I suppose various game designers don't speak to each other much.

Discussions like this always remind me of a conversation I had with some of the Forgeworld rules guys/designers about Aeronautica imperialis, about when they were conceiving of the giant chaos bomber that was released. It was written as a huuuuge doom bomber, capable of laying waste to cities, but when they decided on the size of it, they didn't realise that it was actually kinda small in comparison to modern bombers, which they had evisaged it as dwarfing.

I wonder how many other details are a result of designer blokes doing that.

[Lord Revan]

btw wasn't it implied at Cyrene was at least as advanced as Meridian before the Inquisitorial navy desided to use it for target practice, so it could be possible for nobility be old enough to have high ranking SM family members.

(I could be wrong though as Cyrene's orginal status stays onscreen for so short time it's hard to see the numbers)

[Eviscerator]

. Chaos Marines obviously don't follow the Codex, but the only Chaos marines shown getting frisky are Slaanesh worshipers, and I'm pretty sure it's always with demonic enhancements, not base equipment.

I.

Would you be referring to the Inquisition War trilogy then? THere's a passage where Draco observes Slaaneeshi CSM's having fun with an "ïmmense harem". The CSM's exhibit "grotesquely mutated rampant groins, their organs of pleasure bifurcated and more, with squinting eyes sprouting from them, and with drooling lips". It also makes references to Chaos Spawn "connected to the groin-guards of their master" via umbilical cord.

I should think there is very little left unmodified on a CSM who has been under Chaos for long enough, maybe even the hair and teeth would be demonically mutated.

[Cykeisme]

I think there's also something in the first Horus Heresy book where a Remembrancer notes that marine naughty bits don't work at all and in Fulgrim where Slaanesh demons specifically give them the ability to go wild, but I don't have the books with me to check.

I've read Horus Rising a few times.. you are probably referring to the scene of the first meeting between Remembrancer Euphrati Keeler and Captain Garviel Loken. She "sighs inwardly at the splendor of his physique", and notes that he is handsome as well, then thinks to herself, "what a waste". There is no mention of his unmentionables or their functionality.

The lowered or complete removal of libido, combined with the religious devotion, are sufficient to explain the apparent effective sexlessness of Astartes.


On another note, there is something I've read, in some book or other (I cannot remember which, but definitely old) that states that attempts to reproduce Astartes through normal means always simply fails, because the father's genetic alteration results in a messed up zygote.
That's what necessitates the somewhat lengthy and dangerous process of modification on a pre-pubescent youth that we're all familiar with.

[Pantastic]

Yes Cykeisme that was the bit I was thinking of. It looks like marines don't have the desire other than the one Space Wolf book, and implied but arguably that the bits don't work, but there's plenty of room to say otherwise. I think part of why I took the implication as confirmation is that it fits with the idea that marines only care about living on through their geneseed, not regular children.