In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Crossposting this from a reptile forum... Where I will probably be banned for supporting the legislation.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/06/03/1 ... drine.html
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Gov. Charlie Crist has signed bills banning the ownership of Burmese pythons and other reptiles and requiring tracking of over-the-counter ephedrine sales.

The reptile bill (SB 318) signed Thursday prohibits importation and personal ownership of seven nonnative species.

They've become a problem in the wild when they escape or are released and one killed a child last year in Sumter County.

The ephedrine law (SB 1050) is designed to help catch those who use of the substance for making illegal methamphetamine.

Crist also signed bills loosening Florida seaport regulations so they'll be more competitive with ports in other states (HB 963) and lift restrictions on siting homes for developmentally disabled people (SB 1166

Well, after reading the Entire Text of the Legislation I cannot say that the species listed are bad choices to ban outright. Two of them are already established in FL and the others could easily establish themselves. Green Anacondas for example would find the wetlands of FL very much to their liking. The only silver lining is that they would probably out-compete the burms. If Nile Monitors-in the wild accomplished raiders of crocodile nests-get into the range of Crocodylus acutus, you can say goodbye to the progress made in getting their populations back up.

Some individuals can keep Burmese Pythons, other large constrictors, and nile monitors without problems. However most individuals who purchase these organisms, and indeed those who import them in many cases, have no business doing so. They lack the ability and commitment to keep them properly through their natural life, which can last decades. They get released by people who can no longer care for them, they escape when cage doors are left open, and they get out in larger numbers when hurricanes damage import facilities. To have Burms and Niles constantly re-introduced in the wild after and during eradication attempts would make such efforts fruitless. The other species on the list also have the potential to be highly invasive, and preventing their introduction into the state through a ban on importation and ownership is prudent. Particularly because Florida is less than a shining example when it comes to preventing or dealing with the establishment of invasives. The population numbers are not known, but what is known is that Nile Monitors and Burmese Pythons are definitely established and breeding in numbers. So are a large number of other invasive species.

Scrub Pythons may or may not have the thermal tolerances to deal with the occasional frost (max northern range is approximately at the tropic of cancer), but Rock Pythons definitely do. The habitats they require can easily be found within the state both in suburbia and within undeveloped areas. They are bad news, and Rock Pythons may already be established.

One can talk about the right of an individual to keep what they wish and about government intrusion being undesirable. However that argument rests on several faulty assumptions (Besides rights ethics not actually being a logically defensible system. I would prefer not to get into that though, so we will assume that rights ethics are tenable for the sake of argument).

The first assumption is that the actions of individuals impact no one but themselves. I cannot easily think of a decision, save for those of personal taste (in artwork or something) where the consequences of that decision are born only by the person making the choice. The establishment of invasive species within an ecologically sensitive area is a public problem and as a result the public-which means government-has the right the constrain the decisions which can be made by individuals.

The second violated assumption is that the community is capable of and willing to engage in self-regulation. Government intervention would not be necessary if the herp community was able to regulate its members. It is obviously not. The only way this could be done is to have community enforced no-buys lists that are universally circulated and enforced with things like lack of entry into reptiles shows for firms that violate the terms of said list. This is not being done, and it would be very difficult to do so because those who dont like the agreement could simply form their own group.

Thus intervention by the state is required.

Would I prefer to not see an outright ban? Sure. Would tighter licensing and follow up be preferable? Sure. However this solution is not workable. Primarily because taxes would have to be raised to enforce it. Thus, the ban is necessary.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:Crocodylus acutus
I know you're well verse in reptile taxa, but most people who are going to be interested in this article are not. Might I suggest for sake of expediency we just use layman's terms and say 'American Crocodile'? :P
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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Would the Nile monitors be much of a problem for alligators or does their larger population and the mothers guarding the nest make their risk negligible when compared to that of the American crocodile?


Are people on the other board really that butt hurt over a law that really makes sense? It they really feel the need to have one of the animals banned by Florida how about moving to another state? Preferably one where the animal wouldn't have much of a chance getting established in the local ecosystem.


I'm curious. Have there been cases of people importing other crocodilians into the US and having the animal survive after the owner dumped them in the wild (other than the NYC sewers ;-)) because the animal got too big or too costly to take care of? I was thinking that some caimans have been caught or seen in Florida but all this stuff with the pythons and iguanas "living it up" in Florida got me wondering if people might not have introduced even larger reptiles.

Would a salt water crocodile be able to survive and thrive in the habitat that the American crocodile inhabits? I'm presuming that the alligator's normal habitat isn't something that would be ideal for one of the large crocodiles from Africa or Asia?
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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I was thinking that some caimans have been caught or seen in Florida but all this stuff with the pythons and iguanas "living it up" in Florida got me wondering if people might not have introduced even larger reptiles.
I've heard of worse things being in Florida, like exotic highly venomous snake worse.


Would the Nile Monitor be worse than the local raccoon population?
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

Post by Serafina »

So they are banning animals that could spread to the local nature and imbalance that ecosystem if they escape?
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. We know many cases where such things caused a lot of trouble - and if these species could live in those swamps, that just bad luck for their owners.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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Tsyroc wrote:Would the Nile monitors be much of a problem for alligators or does their larger population and the mothers guarding the nest make their risk negligible when compared to that of the American crocodile?
This one I can answer. It's all about the population. Nile monitors are excellent nest raider and their normal targets, the Nile crocodile, usually buries the nest and the mother guards it, frequently assisted by the father. The Florida croc population is tiny.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

Post by Flagg »

Ha, this is so much trying to close pandoras box a decade after it was opened. Hell, I would go so far as to say the mass killing of pythons is immoral considering that they have firmly established themselves in the ecosystem.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Would the Nile monitors be much of a problem for alligators or does their larger population and the mothers guarding the nest make their risk negligible when compared to that of the American crocodile?
In the wild Nile Monitors eat many things (pretty much anything they can run down and overpower), but the food they like the most happen to be the eggs of crocodiles. In their native africa, that means Nile Crocodiles. They lay their eggs on sandy banks and guard them for three months. In the heat of the day though she has to stay in the water to avoid cooking in the sun. The monitor does not have that problem, and while mom is cooling down, they come in, sniff out the nest (or just watched where they were buried) and eats them all before mom notices. American crocodiles do the exact same thing with their nests. The difference is that there are very few breeding American Croc females left. If Nile Monitors get to the southern tip of florida where the last ones are-and they will eventually if left unchecked they will destroy those populations.

American alligators should be OK because their populations are huge.
Are people on the other board really that butt hurt over a law that really makes sense? It they really feel the need to have one of the animals banned by Florida how about moving to another state? Preferably one where the animal wouldn't have much of a chance getting established in the local ecosystem.
The herp community has a libertarian streak the size of siberia. Once you get away from the academic herpetologists you are basically dealing with a bunch of hicks who happen to have a collection of snakes in their house. Part of the reason they keep dangerous reptiles is out of a love of rebellion and pure machismo. They think it is their god-given right to keep these animals and how dare the government get in their way!
I was thinking that some caimans have been caught or seen in Florida but all this stuff with the pythons and iguanas "living it up" in Florida got me wondering if people might not have introduced even larger reptiles.
No reports of niles or salties that I know of. Caimans definitely yes, but most of the big ones that get introduced are large snakes. Probably because snakes of any size are escape artists that are difficult to contain.
Would a salt water crocodile be able to survive and thrive in the habitat that the American crocodile inhabits? I'm presuming that the alligator's normal habitat isn't something that would be ideal for one of the large crocodiles from Africa or Asia?
Thankfully no. The really really big crocs are pretty much restricted to the tropics because of their temperature limitations.
Would the Nile Monitor be worse than the local raccoon population?
Yes. They are just as smart as a raccoon (monitors can count... they are disgustingly intelligent for a reptile), far larger (a large adult nile monitor is a 7 foot long climbing swimming death machine), and breed in larger numbers. Just like a raccoon they can take advantage of trashcan raiding and increased populations of small urbanized animals and thus have their population growth supplemented by people. They are bad news.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

Post by Drooling Iguana »

General Schatten wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Crocodylus acutus
I know you're well verse in reptile taxa, but most people who are going to be interested in this article are not. Might I suggest for sake of expediency we just use layman's terms and say 'American Crocodile'? :P
I'm not very well-versed in reptile taxa either, but I found it to be pretty obvious what he was referring to from the context.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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Alyrium Denryle wrote: Yes. They are just as smart as a raccoon (monitors can count... they are disgustingly intelligent for a reptile), far larger (a large adult nile monitor is a 7 foot long climbing swimming death machine), and breed in larger numbers. Just like a raccoon they can take advantage of trashcan raiding and increased populations of small urbanized animals and thus have their population growth supplemented by people. They are bad news.
Oh right, I forgot how big they can get, that makes a bit of a difference.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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Flagg wrote:Ha, this is so much trying to close pandoras box a decade after it was opened. Hell, I would go so far as to say the mass killing of pythons is immoral considering that they have firmly established themselves in the ecosystem.
If by "firmly established" you mean "devouring any and every native species they can fit in their mouths and breeding without any parasitic, viral, bacterial, or predatory controls," then, yes, your statement is perfectly accurate.

However, if we want to retain the Everglades as something other than an eaten-out husk in the next 50-100 years, we need to go a-python hunting and eliminate the bastards from the Everglades.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

Post by Flagg »

Akhlut wrote:
Flagg wrote:Ha, this is so much trying to close pandoras box a decade after it was opened. Hell, I would go so far as to say the mass killing of pythons is immoral considering that they have firmly established themselves in the ecosystem.
If by "firmly established" you mean "devouring any and every native species they can fit in their mouths and breeding without any parasitic, viral, bacterial, or predatory controls," then, yes, your statement is perfectly accurate.

However, if we want to retain the Everglades as something other than an eaten-out husk in the next 50-100 years, we need to go a-python hunting and eliminate the bastards from the Everglades.

Yeah, have fun wasting millions doing that. At some point the numbers will become unsustainable and balance out at which point native species will make a comeback and we'll all be singing kumbaya.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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Flagg wrote:Yeah, have fun wasting millions doing that. At some point the numbers will become unsustainable and balance out at which point native species will make a comeback and we'll all be singing kumbaya.
The trouble is that when you introduce a strongly competitive new species to a region, the point at which their numbers become unsustainable and decline happens after they've outcompeted and driven extinct most of the native wildlife.
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

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Flagg wrote:Yeah, have fun wasting millions doing that. At some point the numbers will become unsustainable and balance out at which point native species will make a comeback and we'll all be singing kumbaya.
It's better to spend that money to kill the pythons than the alternative ecological destruction, as Vendetta pointed out. If we allow the Nile monitors and Burmese pythons to just live there, you're going to see the loss of a lot of biodiversity in that region, a lot of which is endemic to the Everglades.

But, why 'waste millions' just to save some stupid animals, right? :roll:
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Re: In Other News, Florida Python Ban Passes.

Post by Flagg »

Akhlut wrote:
Flagg wrote:Yeah, have fun wasting millions doing that. At some point the numbers will become unsustainable and balance out at which point native species will make a comeback and we'll all be singing kumbaya.
It's better to spend that money to kill the pythons than the alternative ecological destruction, as Vendetta pointed out. If we allow the Nile monitors and Burmese pythons to just live there, you're going to see the loss of a lot of biodiversity in that region, a lot of which is endemic to the Everglades.

But, why 'waste millions' just to save some stupid animals, right? :roll:

I never said spending money to save animals was a waste, I said spending millions trying to stop pythons spreading in the everglades was a waste you strawmanning dumbshit. You might as well try to get rid of fireants, killer bees, and enoles while you're at it.
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