Silly alt-hist/place swap BS [CHAPTER 4 up]

[Captain Seafort]

So what exactly is the 2006 British unit that (along with the SAS team) got time-switched with the original holders of Hougoumont?

The fact that the Green Jackets are present puts the "modern" component of the swap some time after October 2006, part of Op TELIC 9, so the force at Waterloo is probably a battlegroup or part of a battlegroup based on one of the following battalions (assuming Wiki's accurate):

1st Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own)
2nd Battalion, The Duke of Lancaster's Regiment (King's Lancashire and Border)
1st Battalion, The Staffordshire Regiment (The Prince of Wales's)
2nd Battalion, The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
2nd Battalion, The Light Infantry

[Stuart Mackey]

Ohh, I like this, it will be interesting to see the reaction of the British government in both era's I can also imagine the delight and horror of the treasury, depending on the era!
Are you going to ignore timeline issues? That sort of stuff gets complicated.
Oh, remember that the 95th has the Baker rifle, same range as a modern rifle, just very slow to load and they do use cover/fire and movement.

[weemadando]

Timeline issues will be ignored. Let's pretend that there's parallel universes or something.

[Captain Seafort]

Timeline issues will be ignored. Let's pretend that there's parallel universes or something.

As an OOB nitpick, what happened to the rest of the 2006 battlegroup? Did the grab only cover part of al-Amarah, and if so is part of Wellington's army still at Waterloo?

Or will we have to wait for the next instalment to find out?

[Stuart Mackey]

Timeline issues will be ignored. Let's pretend that there's parallel universes or something.

Most sensible.

[Stuart Mackey]

It's going to be interesting to see the Iraq reaction to a large force that is not casualty-averse and has no concept of public relations.

Err, I don't think thats entirely true. While British forces of the era were not casualty adverse in the same way we are, they would not throw lives away needlessly, especially someone like Wellington. British troops of the time were 'volunteers' (some were 'volunteered' by others or tricked into it), and they took time and money to train to an acceptable level, and as British forces tended to be a lot smaller than their continental cousins, generals had to be judicious in the use of their command and take measures to ensure that their forces were properly paid, fed and kept healthy, as well as disciplined to ensure that this could happen. Wellington also started a proper staff system, primitive and cumbersome by todays standards, but he was ahead of his time, and he was one of the first modern generals.

Wellington was acutely aware of PR, and made sure those under his command were aware of his view's on the matter. Wellingtons campaigns in India, and the Peninsula, are prime examples of the beginnings of 'Hearts and Mind's warfare; private property damaged or destroyed in fighting would be compensated for, those who committed crimes were, to the best of ability of they existing system, brought to justice, and so on. I don't want to write a book about it, but Wellington always operated in nations where the culture was alien or sufficiently different that serious offence was easy to cause, he was generally out numbered by his opponents as well, he could not afford to alienate the very nation he was operating in lest they began fighting him as well as the enemy, indeed he actively cultivated local rulers and their populace to ensure active support support, either by supply or by force of arms, in support of British efforts. I wont say things were perfect, British troops were prone to sacking forts/towns that resisted them needlessly, Badajoz, for example which was a 'PR Disaster' and their are a number of examples like this.

We can see the legacy of Wellington's policies in the term 'guerrilla', its Spanish for 'little war', it was made famous by the Spanish insurgents, supplied by the British, fighting a French enemy who was completely unaware of the practical implications of good PR.

[Stuart]

Err, I don't think thats entirely true. While British forces of the era were not casualty adverse in the same way we are, they would not throw lives away needlessly, especially someone like Wellington. British troops of the time were 'volunteers' (some were 'volunteered' by others or tricked into it), and they took time and money to train to an acceptable level, and as British forces tended to be a lot smaller than their continental cousins, generals had to be judicious in the use of their command and take measures to ensure that their forces were properly paid, fed and kept healthy, as well as disciplined to ensure that this could happen. Wellington also started a proper staff system, primitive and cumbersome by todays standards, but he was ahead of his time, and he was one of the first modern generals.

Mea Culpa I should have inserted the word "relatively". Certainly the British Army of the Napoleonic era would not throw men away pointlessly but equally they would take casulaties that a modern society into fits of screaming hysteria. That is a very critical point; modern irregular tactics suceed because small numbers of casualties (single digits per week) have a disproportionate effect. Tell Wellington winning a war at a total cost of two thousand casualties is unacceptable and he would laugh at you.

Wellington was acutely aware of PR, and made sure those under his command were aware of his view's on the matter. Wellingtons campaigns in India, and the Peninsula, are prime examples of the beginnings of 'Hearts and Mind's warfare; private property damaged or destroyed in fighting would be compensated for, those who committed crimes were, to the best of ability of they existing system, brought to justice, and so on. I don't want to write a book about it, but Wellington always operated in nations where the culture was alien or sufficiently different that serious offence was easy to cause, he was generally out numbered by his opponents as well, he could not afford to alienate the very nation he was operating in lest they began fighting him as well as the enemy, indeed he actively cultivated local rulers and their populace to ensure active support support, either by supply or by force of arms, in support of British efforts. I wont say things were perfect, British troops were prone to sacking forts/towns that resisted them needlessly, Badajoz, for example which was a 'PR Disaster' and their are a number of examples like this.

There's a big difference between the kinds of hearts and minds campaign that Wellington organized in Spain and the kind of omnipresent press coverage we have today - although in fairness, there were signs of today's imbroglio arising even then and they were much stronger in the ACW. I doubt of we would see Wellington planning operations so they looked good on television or announcing what his strategy would be on the 10 o'clock news.

[Edward Yee]

Mea Culpa I should have inserted the word "relatively". Certainly the British Army of the Napoleonic era would not throw men away pointlessly but equally they would take casulaties that a modern society into fits of screaming hysteria. That is a very critical point; modern irregular tactics suceed because small numbers of casualties (single digits per week) have a disproportionate effect. Tell Wellington winning a war at a total cost of two thousand casualties is unacceptable and he would laugh at you.

If I recall, this is part of the "legend" of, and usually cited reasons for, U.S. Grant's success in the ACW as well -- not (just) for his willingness to take casualties, but for his focus on "the mission" even in the face of horrific casualties.

[Stuart Mackey]

Mea Culpa I should have inserted the word "relatively".

Couldn't agree more, but lets not generalize about Wellington, he was no fool and had a sound appreciation for how and why one should not to piss off the populace that kept him supplied with things like water!

I doubt of we would see Wellington planning operations so they looked good on television or announcing what his strategy would be on the 10 o'clock news.

Indeed, especially given that he wouldn't even tell his own 2i/c his operational plans for a battle I think the BBC will be shit out of luck for a quote, let alone an interview.

[Stuart]

I think the BBC will be shit out of luck for a quote, let alone an interview.

I can just see how that conversation would run.

Talking Head "And now, viewers, we are here at the Duke of Wellington's headquarters to ask him about his strategy for the forthcoming campaign. Ahead of us is his Aide, The Earl of Uxbridge.

Earl of Uxbridge "May I be of assistance to you . . . . . gentlemen."

TH "We want to interview the Dook."

EoU. "I see, well, if you could just sign the request form here. And here. And here.' Thank you. Tomkinson, take these men to their barracks."

TH "Wh -aa-a-a-aT"

EoU. "You have just signed on as volunteers with the Inniskillings. Good luck . . . . . . gentlemen."

[Night_stalker]

Well, that's one way to deal with the Paparatzzi...

[Vehrec]

Unfortunately, they are probably literate and can smell when the documents they've just been handed are a fake.

As for the Iraqis, they have a opponent who doesn't care about PR or casualties, sure. But they also have abundant automatic weapons, IEDs and vastly superior communications. It may come as a bit of a shock to have technological superiority for once.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

As far as casualties go, "I could lick those fellows any day, but it would cost me ten thousand men; and as this is the last army England has, we must take care of it." said before Salamanca. There are a lot of biographies of Wellington, ranging from the hagiographic, Guedalla, to the deconstructive (Fuller, I believe- as well as the odd disgruntled Frenchman), but the one I tend to go by is Lady Elizabeth Longford's.

It follows Arthur Wesley the man more than it does the Iron Duke, and contains amongst other things, such as a chapter on his early political career in Dublin as a jobbing Irish MP before the Act of Union- he was no stranger to machine politics and dirty back- stairs dealing- a print of Goya's sketch of Wellington after Salamanca. It is an extraordinary glimpse of the man behind the legend, barely recognisable as the same being as the official portraits.

The bit I'm really looking forward to is when they finally do make contact with the command structure and the poliical forces of the day. That would be the recently evicted Blair and Brown, and I for one am hoping that ends up in a duel.

Oh, yes, any historically minded Iraqui- or for that matter American- would do well to remember what Wellesley and his elder brother were up to in India from 1800-1804. Massively expanding the area of control fo the British Raj, for a start.

[Night_stalker]

Oh, that is going to be interesting...

[spartasman]

I don't suppose well be seeing any of Sharp in this fic? I would really like to see him handle an AK or some other captured weapon, I imagine he would be pleasantly surprised.

[Night_stalker]

Well, Wellington is going to be dealing the fun that is automatic weaponry. His men are going to get absolutely mauled before he can begin replanning his strategy.

[Simon_Jester]

This is good stuff.

Finally, regarding Napoleon's Grande Armee (did I get that right as of June 1815?), it's nice to see him -- unlike Abigor -- appreciate the need for information and enemy dispositions, but I have these questions about that...

Well, Napoleon could probably have given Abigor a fairly bad day. He'd probably lose because the damn demons would roll right over his men, but Abigor would know he'd been tapped.

Spoiler

2. Why did the survivor of the attempted probe then fail to add that in addition to the "rapid-firing rifles," the supposed Englishment had different uniform or ethnicity, or that they were firing from "holes in the ground"? (Unless the Guards were firing from other forms of cover.)

Getting a rough count would just require them to get close enough to observe muzzle flashes and estimate the number of individual firing positions. Figuring out their ethnicity would imply getting into suicide range... Now, "holes in the ground" is another question. The Napoleonic era knew about trenches, though not about individual foxholes; they were used as part of siege tactics.

Spoiler

3. I don't know if Napoleonic-era mortars had indirect/NLOS capability, but shouldn't Napoleon recognize that something else is out of the ordinary when a rocket just so happens to tip over in midair and perfectly one-shot his precious artillery?

Oh yeah. Napoleon would definitely know about mortars.

Well, Wellington is going to be dealing the fun that is automatic weaponry. His men are going to get absolutely mauled before he can begin replanning his strategy.

He might not. He's up against Iraqi guerillas; unless he runs into massed resistance inside the town from large Kalash-armed forces at close range, he isn't going to be quite as screwed as he might otherwise be.

And it's very unlikely he'll wind up fighting a war with the British troops in the area, though he might get confused and attack Americans. Unlikely, even then, because he's smart enough to know that his supply lines are nonexistent and he's at the mercy of whoever rules the area if he can't conquer it outright...

Also because he's going to be happy (if, of course, incredibly confused) to make contact with Downing Street.

[Edward Yee]

I don't suppose well be seeing any of Sharp in this fic? I would really like to see him handle an AK or some other captured weapon, I imagine he would be pleasantly surprised.

They already did that, it's called The Guns of the South. [/massive inaccuracy] But at least this time it doesn't have the horrid retro-Afrikaaners that eventually pissed off even fantasy-Robert E. Lee.

Regarding automatic weaponry -- I wonder if that's automatic fire being directed at the Coldstream Guards, much less whether they recognize it... or at least, that that's no "mere" hand grenade that impacted right in front of their line. I don't think those are even guerrilla forces that shot first, just local Iraqis with guns recognizing that shit's going down.

Simon_Jester, thanks for correcting me on the subject of how the cuirassiers would have determined numerical force size (and "repeating" long guns) but not the other indicators that something else was severely up.

While I'm glad that my thinking re: indirect fire wasn't off the mark (NLOS though ... only in Napoleon: Total War? ), but from the description of the destruction (or at least "mission killing") of the grand battery, I thought that the Javelin attack clearly showed something that should have been even more "oh shit," as it seemed a little too "convenient" to appear coincidental to Napoleon. (I'm sure it wasn't coincidental from our 2006ers.)

[spartasman]

Won't Wellington get charged for war crimes though for killing all those people? I can already imagine the Prime Minister denouncing him on TV for his actions.

[Night_stalker]

Probably, but he might get a pass due to his being Wellington, one of the
most famous British commanders of all time.

[Stuart Mackey]

EoU. "You have just signed on as volunteers with the Inniskillings. Good luck . . . . . . gentlemen."

I can see that happening so very clearly Gives new meaning to the idea of 'embedded' journalists.

[Stuart Mackey]

Won't Wellington get charged for war crimes though for killing all those people? I can already imagine the Prime Minister denouncing him on TV for his actions.

Apart from being 1st Duke of Wellington, the era and conditions he comes from will probably get him off, that and the fact that he has no food or water for 70 odd thousand men, not counting horses to whom he has a duty of care.

[Simon_Jester]

Regarding automatic weaponry -- I wonder if that's automatic fire being directed at the Coldstream Guards, much less whether they recognize it... or at least, that that's no "mere" hand grenade that impacted right in front of their line.

They'd probably recognize automatic weapons fire when it started carving chunks out of their front, and note that the guns in front of them go flash-flash-flash instead of flash-puff of smoke-wait fifteen seconds-flash almost immediately. But if we're looking at the typical use of automatic weapons in the Middle East, a lot of the fire is going straight over their heads.

As for the RPG, an unguided shoulder-fired rocket launcher is probably the least bizarre weapon they're going to see in the modern era. They know about rockets. They know about grenades. The idea of shoulder-fired rockets, while foreign to them, is probably no more foreign than machine guns or trucks.

Simon_Jester, thanks for correcting me on the subject of how the cuirassiers would have determined numerical force size (and "repeating" long guns) but not the other indicators that something else was severely up.

They'd probably have figured out that they were looking at men dug into some kind of trenches or firing pits, but that's about it.

While I'm glad that my thinking re: indirect fire wasn't off the mark (NLOS though ... only in Napoleon: Total War? )...

Well, you could toss mortar bombs at a target you couldn't see. You'd just have no realistic chance of hitting it except by blind fool luck.

but from the description of the destruction (or at least "mission killing") of the grand battery, I thought that the Javelin attack clearly showed something that should have been even more "oh shit," as it seemed a little too "convenient" to appear coincidental to Napoleon. (I'm sure it wasn't coincidental from our 2006ers.)

We've heard of guided weapons. Napoleon hasn't, and the idea of a rocket that's so smart it fucking steers itself to the target would be black magic to him. It would take an enormous pounding from guided weapons for him to grasp the concept, just as it took for Abigor in Armageddon.

Put another way: once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action. Napoleon's forces have just been hit by a guided weapon once.

[Stuart Mackey]

They'd probably recognize automatic weapons fire when it started carving chunks out of their front, and note that the guns in front of them go flash-flash-flash instead of flash-puff of smoke-wait fifteen seconds-flash almost immediately. But if we're looking at the typical use of automatic weapons in the Middle East, a lot of the fire is going straight over their heads.

Dont forget that Wellington will be supporting his infantry with cannon firing solid shot and cannister (airburst shrapnel at longer range for troops in the open) but for all of that it will not be long before more modern forces are supporting him with a view to his 'withdrawal from operations' asap to the degree that I would be surprised if they see combat for very long at all. What will be interesting is a) the fits the various nations of the allied army will have with all these additional troops on the payroll and b) how they go about integrating them with modern forces (some, the light companies and the rifle units will do ok I would think, the rest would have to start again for all intents and purposes) and society at large.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, I didn't assume that things would work out that way, since unlike you I haven't seen what you haven't posted.