Government stupidity in Seattle

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Big Phil »

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ge08m.html
Macy's rethinks downtown Seattle skybridge as fee soars

When the Bon Marché skybridge opened in 1960 in downtown Seattle, city officials established a $300-a-year permit fee and OK'd the walkway for 15 years.

The Seattle City Council renewed the bridge permit again last week — for two years. And the annual permit fee? $31,185.

Permit fees for skybridges across the city are expected to rise dramatically under a new city formula that weighs adjacent land values to determine how much the owners of skybridges should pay the city. In the case of Macy's, the Bon's successor, store officials in talks with city staff say they are evaluating whether the cost of the skybridge is worth the use it receives.

The new permit formula is "essentially ensuring that the public is getting the fair market value for this encroachment on their right of way," said Angela Steel, a strategic adviser for the Seattle Department of Transportation.

Skybridges — beloved by department stores and shoppers in downtowns such as that of St. Paul, Minn., where the weather can be severe — actually are discouraged by Seattle building laws. A 1982 city ordinance sought to "eliminate the proliferation and adverse effects" of skybridges.

Despite the city's resistance, the downtown area includes at least 23 private skybridges. Two have been taken down in recent years — the Hotel Monaco skybridge near Fourth Avenue and Seneca Street, and one that crossed an alley between First and Second avenues south of Virginia Street.

"What a skybridge does is it takes people off of the right of way and puts them up in the air, and leaves usually the people who aren't good enough to go in the buildings down below," City Councilmember Jean Godden said. "It's really not very friendly."

Skybridges also block views. A decade ago, the expansion of the Washington State Convention Center included two skybridges that blocked views of Pike Place Market. Councilmembers Nick Licata and Peter Steinbrueck opposed the design so loudly that it nearly derailed the entire project.

"The goal is to have people actually on the street," said Sally Clark, chair of the council's Committee on the Built Environment. "Our highest priority is making sure that the street is a place that is safe and convenient."

In talks with city staff, Macy's representatives said the company is studying the use of its Third Avenue skybridge after 2012. "They said they would be reconsidering the long-term use of that skybridge," said Steel, of the Department of Transportation.

The walkway connects shoppers from the Macy's home store to the parking garage across Third Avenue. A Macy's spokesman in Cincinnati said the company is committed to the skybridge but always is concerned about increasing fees.

"The skybridge is going to continue to be important to the store and continue to be important to customers," said Jim Sluzewski, the Macy's spokesman.

Nordstrom spokeswoman Brooke White said her downtown store relies on the skybridge that connects shoppers to Pacific Place. Because the Nordstrom has five stories, she said, the skybridge is important to the "flow" of the store.

"It was important to us that the skybridge exist when we were taking on the job of renovating the old Frederick & Nelson building," she said. "It really keeps people moving on the streets and within the two buildings."

The company that owns Pacific Place pays $7,805 a year in permits for that skybridge. Its permit will not be recalculated until 2017.

Information from The Seattle Times archive is included in this story. Emily Heffter: 206-464-8246 or eheffter@seattletimes.com

OK, is this sort of politically correct stupidity happening in your town? There are gang wars raging in Seattle, open-air drug markets outside the courthouse, and urban blight thanks not only to the recession but also bad decision making, and the Seattle City Council is grandstanding about:
* Skybridges
* Panhandling
* Plastic bags
* Making the city as car unfriendly as possible

For fuck's sake... :banghead:
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

It would be nice if they spent all the time and energy on providing alternatives to cars instead of just making towing companies rich with bizarre "you can randomly park here from 10 AM to 2:45 PM " zones, yeah.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by General Zod »

"What a skybridge does is it takes people off of the right of way and puts them up in the air, and leaves usually the people who aren't good enough to go in the buildings down below," City Councilmember Jean Godden said. "It's really not very friendly."
This has to be one of the strangest complaints I've ever heard. If you don't have any business in the buildings you probably aren't going to be using the skybridge whether or not you could afford to shop there.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Jaevric
Jedi Knight
Posts: 678
Joined: 2005-08-13 10:48pm
Location: Carrollton, Texas

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Jaevric »

I don't get it. Are they upset because they feel people using skybridges are elitist? People who "aren't good enough" to go into the buildings below? They're talking about a skybridge at a Macy's! Do Macy's in Seattle have bouncers? Can I shop at Macy's in Seattle if I'm wearing a polo shirt and slacks, or do I have to go put on a dress shirt and tie? Because I'm not putting on a shirt and tie to shop at a Macy's. Maybe a Brooks Brothers.

If Wal-Mart had a skybridge would that be okay? Or would Wal-Mart adding a skybridge make it elitist?

Is there some safety concern about skybridges due to poor maintenance? Because that'd be a reasonable issue. Hell, I can see raising the permit fee to cover any additional expenses the city is incurring due to the skybridge; $300.00/yr is pocket change for a department store.

Other than that, though, it's a bridge that prevents people from having to dash across a possibly busy road in possibly poor weather. It seems like a good deal to me for everyone involved. I prefer not to worry about squishing pedestrians, and I really prefer not to worry about some jackass in his SUV who absolutely must get to the particular shop having a sale RIGHT NOW running me over.

How does a skybridge make the sidewalks unsafe and inconvenient? People on skybridges throwing garbage at the huddled masses below who are unworthy to enter the department store and shop, and can only stand forlornly with their faces pressed to the glass, yearning for ugly jewelry, noxious perfume and overpriced clothing?
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Flagg »

Considering the hordes of homeless and other degenerates wandering the streets of Seattle accosting people, that guy can go fuck himself.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Big Phil »

Jaevric wrote:I don't get it. Are they upset because they feel people using skybridges are elitist? People who "aren't good enough" to go into the buildings below? They're talking about a skybridge at a Macy's! Do Macy's in Seattle have bouncers? Can I shop at Macy's in Seattle if I'm wearing a polo shirt and slacks, or do I have to go put on a dress shirt and tie? Because I'm not putting on a shirt and tie to shop at a Macy's. Maybe a Brooks Brothers.

If Wal-Mart had a skybridge would that be okay? Or would Wal-Mart adding a skybridge make it elitist?

Is there some safety concern about skybridges due to poor maintenance? Because that'd be a reasonable issue. Hell, I can see raising the permit fee to cover any additional expenses the city is incurring due to the skybridge; $300.00/yr is pocket change for a department store.

Other than that, though, it's a bridge that prevents people from having to dash across a possibly busy road in possibly poor weather. It seems like a good deal to me for everyone involved. I prefer not to worry about squishing pedestrians, and I really prefer not to worry about some jackass in his SUV who absolutely must get to the particular shop having a sale RIGHT NOW running me over.

How does a skybridge make the sidewalks unsafe and inconvenient? People on skybridges throwing garbage at the huddled masses below who are unworthy to enter the department store and shop, and can only stand forlornly with their faces pressed to the glass, yearning for ugly jewelry, noxious perfume and overpriced clothing?
About the only place that is more bleeding heart politically correct is Portland, Oregon. Seattle:
* Passed laws preventing police officers from inquiring about someone's immigration status, even if they've already been arrested and are in jail
* Passed laws preventing police officers from making arrests based on marijuana possession (which, while I agree with, is typical Seattle stupidity - they should just legalize pot)
* Refused to ban aggressive panhandling
* Made Seattle a sanctuary city (i.e., all illegal aliens and homeless people, come to Seattle... we'll take care of you here because we feel guilty)
* Voted to build a monorail, bought and bulldozed some properties, and then voted not to build it
* Have been fighting the replacement of a 50 year old viaduct like the one that collapsed in California back in the 90's
* Have been fighting the replacement of one of our floating bridges... I guess we're just going to wait until it sinks like the last one did
* Refuses to acknowledge that we have a gang problem
* Has newspapers that will not print the physical description of suspects in crimes unless they are white... I'm really not kidding... there are articles in the paper where they describe the assailant as a "20-something male"
* Are currently interviewing three candidates for police chief, and as far as I can tell they're going to pick the candidate who is least likely to enforce laws or make efforts to keep the citizens of Seattle safe.
* Has a downtown core that has been turned into a pile of shit where people sell drugs openly, piss and shit on the streets, harass visitors, and whine about being treated unfairly (as if Macy's should be expected to allow homeless people into their store).
* Downtown Seattle has been turned into a giant social service center... Pioneer Square used to be a major shopping destination, but over the last 20-30 years it's pretty much become home to homeless shelters, drug rehab facilities, etc.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Flagg »

Seriously, he's not exaggerating in the least. I went to Pike Place Market, took a wrong turn and witnessed hookers fighting, open drug dealing, and scores of homeless begging for change. Not really even begging so much as blocking your way to ask for it. All of this was at around 1 in the afternoon.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Artemas
Padawan Learner
Posts: 472
Joined: 2008-12-04 03:00pm
Location: Calgary

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Artemas »

That is retarded. Calgary has Plus 15s everywhere downtown (so called because they are 15' above ground). Of course, here we sort of actually need them during the winter. Of course, our police are actually tackling crime downtown.
Shrooms: It's interesting that the taste of blood is kind of irony.
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Coyote »

Going after real problems is time-consuming, costly, and ruffles feathers. So they go after low-hanging fruit to give the illusion of being on top of things. :?
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Themightytom »

Flagg wrote:Seriously, he's not exaggerating in the least. I went to Pike Place Market, took a wrong turn and witnessed hookers fighting, open drug dealing, and scores of homeless begging for change. Not really even begging so much as blocking your way to ask for it. All of this was at around 1 in the afternoon.
See whenever I go to a major city I actually look up homeless shelters OR tell them to call 211 to find the nearest shelter and remind them its a free call. After person number 2 the rest generally ignore me as they don't want the hassle of being given a better solution than a dollar.

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
User avatar
Uraniun235
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13772
Joined: 2002-09-12 12:47am
Location: OREGON
Contact:

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Uraniun235 »

SancheztheWhaler wrote: About the only place that is more bleeding heart politically correct is Portland, Oregon. Seattle:
* Passed laws preventing police officers from inquiring about someone's immigration status, even if they've already been arrested and are in jail
* Passed laws preventing police officers from making arrests based on marijuana possession (which, while I agree with, is typical Seattle stupidity - they should just legalize pot)
* Refused to ban aggressive panhandling
* Made Seattle a sanctuary city (i.e., all illegal aliens and homeless people, come to Seattle... we'll take care of you here because we feel guilty)
* Voted to build a monorail, bought and bulldozed some properties, and then voted not to build it
* Have been fighting the replacement of a 50 year old viaduct like the one that collapsed in California back in the 90's
* Have been fighting the replacement of one of our floating bridges... I guess we're just going to wait until it sinks like the last one did
* Refuses to acknowledge that we have a gang problem
* Has newspapers that will not print the physical description of suspects in crimes unless they are white... I'm really not kidding... there are articles in the paper where they describe the assailant as a "20-something male"
* Are currently interviewing three candidates for police chief, and as far as I can tell they're going to pick the candidate who is least likely to enforce laws or make efforts to keep the citizens of Seattle safe.
* Has a downtown core that has been turned into a pile of shit where people sell drugs openly, piss and shit on the streets, harass visitors, and whine about being treated unfairly (as if Macy's should be expected to allow homeless people into their store).
* Downtown Seattle has been turned into a giant social service center... Pioneer Square used to be a major shopping destination, but over the last 20-30 years it's pretty much become home to homeless shelters, drug rehab facilities, etc.
I'm really curious to hear what the hell makes Portland worse than that, most of those things sound worse than what I've heard happens in Portland.

Hell, at least we can actually get light rail built on time and on (or under!) budget!
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
Image
What is Project Zohar?
"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Big Phil »

Portlanders love their homeless people even more than Seattle folks... but otherwise you're not nearly as retarded. You have a functioning transit system, for example.

EDIT - I just mean the bleeding heart portion... Portland isn't nearly as incompetent as Seattle otherwise.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Portlanders love their homeless people even more than Seattle folks... but otherwise you're not nearly as retarded. You have a functioning transit system, for example.

EDIT - I just mean the bleeding heart portion... Portland isn't nearly as incompetent as Seattle otherwise.
Yeah, living in downtown Portland for a while and coming from Seattle I always walked faster when in the dark near a bunch of wandering homeless people (which was a fairly common occurrence), and my girlfriend at the time was wondering what the big deal was and "oh, they're harmless, they're just trying to stay warm by the heating grates" and I'm WTF?

Seattle has all kinds of issues, starting with a city government that wanted to kill all industry within the city, though. I remember being downtown with my dad in the 1980s and yeah there were rough spots, especially down by the King Dome and up toward the International District, but generally the city was just awesome. They should have just put in a new Viaduct, but the old mayor, damn his ass, had to insist on a Big Dig style tunnel so we could have this "connected waterfront" shit, which was codewords for destroying all producing industry in the city and putting up condos. People fortunately refused to go along with it, but instead of protecting the idea of Seattle as a working waterfront industrial city which actually does things, have proceeded in a very retarded fashion.

If they really want to stop the viaduct replacement project, they need to offer something viable to replace it in transit terms. And a viable replacement for the Highway 99 corridor in Seattle isn't some extra buses and surface streets, it's a dual-track BART line from Northgate to Fauntleroy with a second spur along the 509 to Seatac (and maybe a third along the 599 to Tukwila).
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Maybe you guys can explain it to me, what's the problem with skyways? I always thought they're a pretty classy piece of architecture, assuming the connected buildings are of similar construction and the skyway matches them, what's with the hate?
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Uraniun235
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13772
Joined: 2002-09-12 12:47am
Location: OREGON
Contact:

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Uraniun235 »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Portlanders love their homeless people even more than Seattle folks... but otherwise you're not nearly as retarded. You have a functioning transit system, for example.

EDIT - I just mean the bleeding heart portion... Portland isn't nearly as incompetent as Seattle otherwise.
Oh, I see. Yeah, I can see that. Sorry to get my hackles up.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
Image
What is Project Zohar?
"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Terralthra »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: If they really want to stop the viaduct replacement project, they need to offer something viable to replace it in transit terms. And a viable replacement for the Highway 99 corridor in Seattle isn't some extra buses and surface streets, it's a dual-track BART line from Northgate to Fauntleroy with a second spur along the 509 to Seatac (and maybe a third along the 599 to Tukwila).
I'm fairly certain they can't have a Bay Area Rapid Transit line outside the Bay Area. :D
User avatar
Artemas
Padawan Learner
Posts: 472
Joined: 2008-12-04 03:00pm
Location: Calgary

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Artemas »

General Schatten wrote:Maybe you guys can explain it to me, what's the problem with skyways? I always thought they're a pretty classy piece of architecture, assuming the connected buildings are of similar construction and the skyway matches them, what's with the hate?
Apparently they're classist.
Shrooms: It's interesting that the taste of blood is kind of irony.
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Coyote »

General Schatten wrote:Maybe you guys can explain it to me, what's the problem with skyways? I always thought they're a pretty classy piece of architecture, assuming the connected buildings are of similar construction and the skyway matches them, what's with the hate?
I think they're trying to cook up an argument that people using the skyway are avoiding street-level merchants... while trying to avoid saying that it also means people are leaving the streets to the homeless, and that's bad.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
Questor
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1601
Joined: 2002-07-17 06:27pm
Location: Landover

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by Questor »

Coyote wrote:
General Schatten wrote:Maybe you guys can explain it to me, what's the problem with skyways? I always thought they're a pretty classy piece of architecture, assuming the connected buildings are of similar construction and the skyway matches them, what's with the hate?
I think they're trying to cook up an argument that people using the skyway are avoiding street-level merchants... while trying to avoid saying that it also means people are leaving the streets to the homeless, and that's bad.
How does that even follow? Unless the skybridge network is much more extensive than it seems to be, where can there possibly be a classist argument?

Is there some way to traverse Seattle on foot that doesn't involve going to the street? Can I take skybridges from the airport to the convention center?

This is retarded.
User avatar
ebs2323
Redshirt
Posts: 26
Joined: 2010-02-07 05:26pm

Re: Government stupidity in Seattle

Post by ebs2323 »

I live in Washington, and I love it. But our mayor is an idiot. Our town’s mayor is spending a huge amount of money on "repairing" the roads and sidewalks, and making a new city hall. The city hall we have right now is fine, and our schools are about 300 kids overcapacity. The road was only a little bumpy, the sidewalk was fine.
He is spending the money to make us a tourist town, but we are the only town for about 40 miles into eastern Washington. We get a lot of skiers in winter and campers in summer.
Post Reply