The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Stuart]

Don't get it :/

GDLS make the M1 Abrams main battle tank. Now, the problem with the TSW events is that they've laid waste to the human vocabulary of expletives. So, a new set have to emerge and, being a tanker, Stevenson addresses her request for benediction to the people who made her tank.

[Commander Xillian]

Ah. Thanks for the aid, m'lord.

[Edward Yee]

When I saw that "throwaway" line in Armageddon I'd assumed it was another demon whispering into Memnon's ear... this is some funky shit now.

As for the rarity of shotguns in Pantheocide, the major incidents have been fought at such long ranges that the only "close quarters" shot I can think of was from that Prince George County cop, maybe Drippy firing his upcalibered Martini-Henry. I'm guessing that crowd-control/less-lethal rounds for shotguns are NOWHERE near an ammunition designer's priority any time soon; the demand's probably not there yet.

[Saint_007]

Almost 350,000 dead humans and 45,000 dead angels, with the rest now facing a lifespan of no more than 8 weeks or less.

I don't know about you, but on the next chapter, I'm pretty sure every Angel in the streets of the Eternal City will be pissing themselves in horror. 90% of an army killed and the rest doomed to a lingering painful death is a freaking huge "butcher's bill", especially to a casualty-sensitive military. Personally? I want to see the look on Azrael's face. You know, the guy who thought a nuke and the bombing of NY would be enough to weaken the humans so that the Host can run them over? How do you like them apples *now*, Azzie?

[nobody_really]

Almost 350,000 dead humans and 45,000 dead angels, with the rest now facing a lifespan of no more than 8 weeks or less.

I don't know about you, but on the next chapter, I'm pretty sure every Angel in the streets of the Eternal City will be pissing themselves in horror. 90% of an army killed and the rest doomed to a lingering painful death is a freaking huge "butcher's bill", especially to a casualty-sensitive military. Personally? I want to see the look on Azrael's face. You know, the guy who thought a nuke and the bombing of NY would be enough to weaken the humans so that the Host can run them over? How do you like them apples *now*, Azzie?

Vengence--A dish best served cold (groan) but satisfying when hot, too. The Incomparable Legion may have a casualty percentage approaching Abigor's army when all is said and done. And the sad part is that, except for a few humans Michael has under his complete control, the vast majority of the soon-to-be dead won't have any idea what's killing them. The way they die will probably repulse the healthy angels who see them, and who knows how Yah-yah is going to react. I'm guessing either complete batshit insanity or total villianous BSOD, assuming Michael hasn't finished his coup and surrendered to the humans by then. It would just be too ironic if all his plans, which have worked out unbelievably well until now, suddenly failed horribly.

[SilverHawk]

The reason why the strike was so horrible is due to several factors coming into play here:

1.) We have a large massed target of light infantry in the open with no cover at all -- traditional battlefield uses of nukes are against dispersed military forces who are either dug into foxholes or in armored vehicles; so casualties are much lighter and less concentrated; while with the use of them in a strategic role against cities -- buildings and the like do offer protection -- even if it is fairly minimal.

Buildings outside the thermal kill radius provide ample protection against nuclear strikes, ventilation becomes an issue though as fallout and dirty rain covers the area, compromising the protection the building provides to occupants.

2.) It occured with absolutely no warning at all for the enemy -- even the shortest amount of warning can massively reduce casualties.

Reduction of casualties comes mostly from luck in battlefield situations. The best protection is being forwarned of possible nuclear attacks and making the needed preperations. (NBC Suit, Potassium iodide tablets, etc.)

3.) The Device was unusually large by our standards -- 1.2 megatons is the kind of thing that gets deployed against missile silos or to blow away a city. And we're using it to blow away a massed group of infantry dispersed according to ancient world standards -- about 10m2 or less per man.

It's only large in the realm of MIRV missiles, which this was plainly not. A Titan II could deliever a 9 Megaton device to any point in the world. Unusually large is if they had used my aftermentioned B41 bomb which has a yield of 25 Megatons. (And is practical to deploy, unlike the Tzar Bomba.)

3.) The enemy forces are totally utterly unprepared and have no knowledge of the effect of nuclear weapons or doctrine to deal with the effects.

For example, it takes about 15 or 20 minutes for significant fallout to begin falling -- and this is "golden time" in which you can prepare an impromptu shelter with a high protection factor -- walking on foot away from ground zero is the WORST possible thing you can do -- you'll just suck up rads and weaken yourself in the march.

I wouldnt be surprised if both NATO and WARPAC both had nuclear survival doctrines for Mechanized Infantrymen and Tank crews which emphasized "Shelter in place", even in knocked out or crippled vehicles. Even if an APC has been tossed on it's side by the airblast and is no longer mobile; the steel/aluminum walls still offer a significant PF upgrade and even if the metal in the vehicle has been radioactively activated by the intense radiation from the initial pulse; it's still going to be a lower concentration of radiation than walking around in the open sucking down rads.

Sheltering in an armored vehicle after a nuclear blast is the worst thing you can do besides stand out in the open with exposed skin. Neutron Flux will give you a lethal dose of Rads within 30 minutes, 60 minutes if you're "lucky". Your best chances is to find a building with an intact roof and shelter in the basement until the fallout slackens.

[JN1]

Don't get it :/

GDLS make the M1 Abrams main battle tank. Now, the problem with the TSW events is that they've laid waste to the human vocabulary of expletives. So, a new set have to emerge and, being a tanker, Stevenson addresses her request for benediction to the people who made her tank.

So BAE Systems will probably now be a swear word in the British military.

[UnderAGreySky]

So BAE Systems will probably now be a swear word in the British military.

It already is

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, God. Someone's actually arguing nukes with Shep. This is going to be one for the record books, one way or the other.

It's only large in the realm of MIRV missiles, which this was plainly not. A Titan II could deliever a 9 Megaton device to any point in the world. Unusually large is if they had used my aftermentioned B41 bomb which has a yield of 25 Megatons. (And is practical to deploy, unlike the Tzar Bomba.)

...I'm not so sure. In the '60s we used really huge fusion bombs like the B41 because the circular error probable of the missiles we were throwing them with was painfully large. Once we could land the bomb closer to the target reliably, the superheavy bombs went out of style. So 1.2 megatons is still quite large by modern standards.

[SilverHawk]

Oh, God. Someone's actually arguing nukes with Shep. This is going to be one for the record books, one way or the other.

It's only large in the realm of MIRV missiles, which this was plainly not. A Titan II could deliever a 9 Megaton device to any point in the world. Unusually large is if they had used my aftermentioned B41 bomb which has a yield of 25 Megatons. (And is practical to deploy, unlike the Tzar Bomba.)

...I'm not so sure. In the '60s we used really huge fusion bombs like the B41 because the circular error probable of the missiles we were throwing them with was painfully large. Once we could land the bomb closer to the target reliably, the superheavy bombs went out of style. So 1.2 megatons is still quite large by modern standards.

You'd have a point if the B41 was delievered by ICBM.

[Simon_Jester]

Air-dropped nukes tended to be exceptionally large in this era too. I suspect for the same basic reason- relatively high circular error probable, compounded by the fact that dropping multiple gravity bombs on closely spaced targets is tricky; dropping all at once would require a pretzel flight path and leave you too close to the first blast, while dropping in succession requires you to fly back into the zone of effect of your own bombs.

[SilverHawk]

Air-dropped nukes tended to be exceptionally large in this era too. I suspect for the same basic reason- relatively high circular error probable, compounded by the fact that dropping multiple gravity bombs on closely spaced targets is tricky; dropping all at once would require a pretzel flight path and leave you too close to the first blast, while dropping in succession requires you to fly back into the zone of effect of your own bombs.

I couldn't begin to guess the CEP of something the size of a Black Rhino dropping from the sky. Given that the Littleboy was dropped almost bang-on-target (800 feet from the drop point, a pittance in nuclear yields.) with nothing more then a Norden bombsight that the B41 being dropped clean with the AN/ASQ-38 from a B-52 can repeat the feat of the B-29.

Also, I can't think of any target that would need to be struck by two B41s unless you're trying to dig out some sort of Super-NORAD.

[Simon_Jester]

That's the point. You use a big weapon so that you only need to drop one, even if you somehow wind up half a mile off the target by sheer horrible bad luck. Reducing the circular error probable lets you use smaller warheads, which in turn lets you carry more or put them on smaller packages (like ALCMs; it would be impractical to arm a cruise missile with something the size of the B41).

The point being that while the largest nukes ever create did go up to the ten megaton range and above, the typical modern device is actually less powerful. Compare the B41 to the modern B61 or B83, for example, and note that we no longer field very high-yield devices like the B41 and B53.

Thus, the 1.2 megaton device is large for a modern nuclear weapon, if not compared to the no-longer-in-service superheavy weapons of the mid-Cold War era.

[Stuart]

Buildings outside the thermal kill radius provide ample protection against nuclear strikes, ventilation becomes an issue though as fallout and dirty rain covers the area, compromising the protection the building provides to occupants.

If they survive. A lot depends on their strength relative to the overpressure at a given point. Also, buildings don't take pressure reversal very well and wind reversal is a nasty phenomena when a nuke initiates.

Reduction of casualties comes mostly from luck in battlefield situations. The best protection is being forwarned of possible nuclear attacks and making the needed preperations. (NBC Suit, Potassium iodide tablets, etc.)

To some extent - if the term luck includes not standing on a small stone marked Ground Zero. Nothing will save you if you are close in but on the outer reaches a few minor precautions will enormously increase your chance of living.

It's only large in the realm of MIRV missiles, which this was plainly not. A Titan II could deliever a 9 Megaton device to any point in the world. Unusually large is if they had used my aftermentioned B41 bomb which has a yield of 25 Megatons. (And is practical to deploy, unlike the Tzar Bomba.)

Big devices like that are long gone. We used them to take down very small, very hard targets. As accuracy went up, device yield was scaled back. That was very little to do with MIRVs, it was simply that the big devices weren't cost-effective. In fact, if anything, it was the other way, growing accuracy meant smaller warheads and that made MIRV feasible, We kept some big ones to crack open places like Zhiguli and Yamantau but they were mostly obsolete by the mid-1980s. These days, the preferred warhead yield for strategic weapons is in the 150 - 350 kiloton range with some down to 50 kilotons and some up as high as 550.

Sheltering in an armored vehicle after a nuclear blast is the worst thing you can do besides stand out in the open with exposed skin. Neutron Flux will give you a lethal dose of Rads within 30 minutes, 60 minutes if you're "lucky". Your best chances is to find a building with an intact roof and shelter in the basement until the fallout slackens.

Most modern armored vehicles are fitted with boron-doped absorptive linings for precisely that reason. These days, you are much better off inside an AFV, not least because the overpressure system and filters will keep you breathing clean air. However, in the TSW context, it's more arguable since the NBC shielding is likely to have been deleted in favor of rapid construction.

[MondoMage]

When I saw that "throwaway" line in Armageddon I'd assumed it was another demon whispering into Memnon's ear... this is some funky shit now.

There's been some subtle hints thrown in about demons and such wondering what waited after death for them... perhaps as the demons (and angels, for certain individuals) were what awaited 1st-life humans when they died, perhaps this is an inkling of what something that lays waiting for the demons and angels (and 2nd-life humans) after *they* die.

Or it could be an other-dimensional being manipulating the situation to their own ends. There are a number of deities that fell by the wayside throughout mankind's history, and for certain there were some even before that. Any one of them could be the source of Memnon's "advisor." I think it's interesting that the unknown voice doesn't object to humanity learning about such things, but that he (or she) doesn't want humanity to learn too much information too fast. Opens up all sorts of possibilities for their motives, and goals.

[Night_stalker]

Could we accidentally run into Mount Olympus?

[Pelranius]

Or it could be an other-dimensional being manipulating the situation to their own ends. There are a number of deities that fell by the wayside throughout mankind's history, and for certain there were some even before that. Any one of them could be the source of Memnon's "advisor." I think it's interesting that the unknown voice doesn't object to humanity learning about such things, but that he (or she) doesn't want humanity to learn too much information too fast. Opens up all sorts of possibilities for their motives, and goals.

The deity that Julius Casear said his family worshipped (Cybele, I believe it was) could be up to some tricks. She might be more subtle that either Satan or Yahweh.

Or it might be some trickster god that's taken an interest in Memnon for either some objective or simply for amusement.

[SilverHawk]

If they survive. A lot depends on their strength relative to the overpressure at a given point. Also, buildings don't take pressure reversal very well and wind reversal is a nasty phenomena when a nuke initiates.

Of course, that's just common sense that outside the thermal flash danger zone that the overpressure wave and then the resulting air rushing back in are the greatest threat to anything above ground.

The deal is entirely situational to what you do, it's up to each soldier, airman, marine, sailor to best use his/her training to survive.

To some extent - if the term luck includes not standing on a small stone marked Ground Zero. Nothing will save you if you are close in but on the outer reaches a few minor precautions will enormously increase your chance of living.

No doubt, surviving a nuclear strike is like surviving war itself, plenty of luck with a little bit of skill mixed in. (As far as equal clashing forces go, certainly doesn't apply here.) Which is to my point that forewarning of possible use is better then a NUCFLASH coming over the radio from the CP 5-10 minutes before the nuke hits. (If even that much time.)

Big devices like that are long gone. We used them to take down very small, very hard targets. As accuracy went up, device yield was scaled back. That was very little to do with MIRVs, it was simply that the big devices weren't cost-effective. In fact, if anything, it was the other way, growing accuracy meant smaller warheads and that made MIRV feasible, We kept some big ones to crack open places like Zhiguli and Yamantau but they were mostly obsolete by the mid-1980s. These days, the preferred warhead yield for strategic weapons is in the 150 - 350 kiloton range with some down to 50 kilotons and some up as high as 550.

I know this, a nuke can only be made so large before all it does is dig a bigger hole. Though I've never heard much about 50 Kt warheads still in active service, I thought they all got shifted out of service after the dial-a-yield devices stopped being used after the B-47.

Most modern armored vehicles are fitted with boron-doped absorptive linings for precisely that reason. These days, you are much better off inside an AFV, not least because the overpressure system and filters will keep you breathing clean air. However, in the TSW context, it's more arguable since the NBC shielding is likely to have been deleted in favor of rapid construction.

My point exactly, plus I was touching more about sheltering in a compromised vehicle mentioned by a previous poster rather then a full functional vehicle, which of course would be superior to everything except a bunker 10 feet under ground.

[drakensis]

A turn of phrase that occured to me is that 'the Wrath of an Angry God' while no longer obselete, can now be recalibrated.

Wrath of an Angry Yayyah is clearly now subordinated in the angelic vernacular by Wrath of a Vengeful Human.

[Guardsman Bass]

Or it could be an other-dimensional being manipulating the situation to their own ends.

Stuart explained way back that "third level" beings (with our universe being the "first" level, and Heaven/Hell/Others being the "second") were involved in the process resulting in the Second Lifers. Beings that can't interact directly with our universe, but which apparently can interact to some degree with demons and other beings from the second level (which is probably why he can hear them, and why the demons are apparently afraid of the "Devils").

Here's the section:

Spoiler

The Minos Portal is actually a gate to the next level up. We live in Universe-One, the Hell/Heaven level is Universe Two, whatever lies the other side of the Minos Portal is Universe-Three. Its physical laws are as different from Universe-Two's as ours are. The problem is that cumulative differences mean that Universe-Three occupants can't interact with those of Universe-One (we can't exist in their universe and they can't in ours). So whatever is going on with the dead and all that is something the Universe-Three occupants are up to but we simply have no conception of what that plan is. The Minos Gate is a death analog; the only way to find out for certain what lies the other side is to go through and once that's done, the investigator can't come back and tell anybody. By the way, the suggestion that the primary city of Universe-Three is called R'lyeh has been officially denied.

[Tamahori]

There might be a few angels willing to do something like strip in front of a camera, but I'm not sure what humans can really offer them. Remember, most angels that we've been presented with see humans as menial servants at best. They're primarily useful as janitors for the kind of places that Mike Rowe would have second thoughts about working in, or as subsistence farmers / marketplace mules. And what use is money in heaven, when angels have all the slaves they want? That may change, but the way angelic society is set up now, I don't see too many angels doing anything for human amusement unless the angel is amused as well.

Unless the takeover of the Eternal City goes more cleanly then any such event in human history, angelic society is going to suffer changes to the point of possible total collapse. For a start, the first-life forces (and the second-lifers from Hell) are unlikely to tolerate the continued use of second-life humans as the slave race of the angels. And when that gets ended, one way or another (either by the angels having to support themselves, or having to, shock, 'pay' their servants) then you'll see a major underpinning of their current society knocked out from under them.

And that's best case from the angel's point of view. That assumes that Yah-yah is cleanly taken out, with its supporters, and there is little if no collateral damage in the process, and the first-lifers don't decide to take over the Eternal City (and Heaven in general) the way they've taken over Hell. Things going this well for the angels seems remarkably unlikely.

In practice, angelic society is about to be destroyed. Even in the above 'best case' they will have to acquire their own food and other resources in a way that doesn't rely on unpaid labor, they will have to do without unpaid servants to run their houses for them. They will have to get used to the fact that humans of all things are now in charge, and will beat the crap out of them if they try anything.

What's a lot more likely of course is a fight all the way to the city, though if they can get Yah-yah and the rest of his forces to face them in the field (less likely after the nuke, though Yay-yah is fairly nuts, and Michael will be doing what he can to cause this) and take them out and shatter the spirit of the angels (like they did with Satan) and get some figurehead angel to take over, then they might manage to enter the Eternal City with the same limited fighting as was involved in getting into Dis. If they have to fight their way in to get to Yah-yah though (I'm assuming that him surrendering is a highly unlikely event, nor is humanity going to want to accept it) then you'll see something that's probably going to end up not unlike the situation in Bagdad after the US invasion.

One assumes that the people running things do have plans in mind to try and limit the post conflict damage, but I expect you're still going to be the kind of large scale collapse of the way that things work, that's going to end up with a lot of angels willing to do anything they can to survive. And in some ways, angels are a lot more abusable (or at least more options for abuse) than demons. People don't, generally, find demons to be all that attractive (even with a Succubus, you need either a good solid dose of their pheromones, or to not be wearing your mandatory shiny hat), and that is not the case when it comes to angels.

I really don't know what's going to happen, but if you get angel's stripping (or doing other things) for the camera, in a lot of cases it will be less because it's something they enjoy, and more because they don't have a lot of other options. A girl has to eat after all.

Maion may be more of a prototype for what's going to be happening to a lot of her kind then I really like to think about.

-- Brett, who for the record is not expecting any kind of 'rape and pillaging' going on with the invasion ... at least not without the people doing it getting shot shortly afterwards. It's the long term damage you have to think about.

[PaperJack]

I'm quite sure some humans will want to work for the angels for free. And don't forget that most of the second-lifers there (like the 99.9%) are from the middle ages or earlier. They're used to being slaves and have some kind of stockholm syndrome (see the humans trying to help the angel get up)

[CaptainChewbacca]

Tamahori, keep in mind that for most of the humans in heaven, they are HAPPY to be there. Sure, they sweep floors or work in the fields all day, but so what? They are well-fed, safe from harm, free of disease, and all they have to do is spend 2-4 hours a day praying. Beating a slave is so unheard of that Lemuel actually DIVORCED his wife over it, something which hadn't happened in heaven in a thousand years.

I can see how you'd get a whole lot of warm fuzzies rolling an M1-A1 up the streets while blaring the Emancipation Procclamation over a megaphone, but as soon as you do that you have a few million humans who suddenly have no place to live and nobody looking after them. A gradual emancipation of the humans, or maybe even just an evolution into PAID service is going to be the easiest way to make that transition. If you want to know how well radical reconstruction works, take a look at the post-war confederacy.

[Tamahori]

Tamahori, keep in mind that for most of the humans in heaven, they are HAPPY to be there. Sure, they sweep floors or work in the fields all day, but so what? They are well-fed, safe from harm, free of disease, and all they have to do is spend 2-4 hours a day praying. Beating a slave is so unheard of that Lemuel actually DIVORCED his wife over it, something which hadn't happened in heaven in a thousand years.

I can see how you'd get a whole lot of warm fuzzies rolling an M1-A1 up the streets while blaring the Emancipation Procclamation over a megaphone, but as soon as you do that you have a few million humans who suddenly have no place to live and nobody looking after them. A gradual emancipation of the humans, or maybe even just an evolution into PAID service is going to be the easiest way to make that transition. If you want to know how well radical reconstruction works, take a look at the post-war confederacy.

Oh, I fully agree that, unlike with Hell, most humans in Heaven are quite happy with things. Doesn't mean that the first-lifers aren't going to want to change that, even if it's a really bad idea to mess with it.

The ability of people with the best of intentions to totally screw a situation up ...

Things change more if it does turn into a running fight all the way though the middle of the Eternal City ... war-zones tend to make a mess of things.

Hmm, interesting question ... what's the gender split for angels, and what are the accepted roles? The angels that got nuked, were they all male? (it would not be surprising, given the rather traditionalist approach that's going on). More fighting will probably tend to kill more guys, and you'll end up, much like post war Germany, with a lot of woman who'd lost their primary breadwinner.

The point I'm trying to make is that the results of this are probably going to totally mess up things in Heaven, even if it goes really cleanly, and that the results probably will not be good for angelic life-styles remaining in their current form. Radical reconstruction tends to go badly, which doesn't mean that people won't try it.

Though, for one thing, I'm quite delighted by the possibility of ideas of female liberation getting loose among the female angels. Currently it does not look like they have much in the way of rights there, socially speaking at least. Not that I see this changing in a hurry ... angels have been doing things they way they do for a very long time, and even massive external force will find it hard to change some things.

Summary: Wars fuck things up really badly for the loosing side. I'm doubting this will be much different.

-- Brett

[Stuart]

The model to use here is the South after the American Civil War. Heaven itself is modelled on the romantic view of unrepentent southerners (you know, the one that largely assumes that everybody white was a rich plantation owner benevolently looking after his grateful, happy slaves and carefully ignores the all-encompassing sleeze, murderous brutality, endemic corruption, mindless decadence etc that was really the distinguising feature of ante-bellum Southern society. A key thing to look at in that society is the almost-hysterical stress on avenging insults to a person's "honor". Truly honorable people don't talk about being honorable, they just are honorable. It's murderous thugs who make a big thing about insults to their "honor". ). Taking a look at what happened in the South after that society fell will give a feel for what is in store for Heaven. The watch-word here is "Reconstruction" (and that should send a shiver through the soul of anybody from south of the Mason-Dixon line).

Michael knows all too well that the choice facing Heaven is not "victory or death", it's "defeat or death". Heaven's existing society surviving is not an option. It gets fundamentally rebuilt or destroyed.