The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[KlavoHunter]

Not to mention, if they're at all proportionate to their height, male Angels would probably satisfy his need to see enormous dicks.

[Edward Yee]

But then they're not dicks on women with horridly stupid pun captions...

On a less furry note, what numerical proportion are we talking in terms of "rural" Second-Lifers (and therefore more likely to have gotten a great deal that'd understandably tie them to the angels) compared to the "urban" Second-Lifers (not so much)? I didn't really get a sense of the proportion (i.e. percentage) from the story.

[EdBecerra]

On a less furry note, what numerical proportion are we talking in terms of "rural" Second-Lifers (and therefore more likely to have gotten a great deal that'd understandably tie them to the angels) compared to the "urban" Second-Lifers (not so much)? I didn't really get a sense of the proportion (i.e. percentage) from the story.

In Heaven, you mean? That's... a very fascinating question. Prior to (relatively) recent history, there weren't all that many people living in cities. Didn't Imperial Rome top out at a maximum population of one million? And that was with pre-Industrial Age technology. And urban 20th century folks, well, the only examples of those in Heaven were supposed to be those Mikey smuggled in, right?

*scratches head*

There MUST be some sort of study available on the 'net that has a population breakdown of the human race from 1000 AD going backwards, with breakdowns between rural and urban populations. I seem to recall something to the effect that roughly 90% of all Americans lived in rural areas prior to 1900 AD. Wouldn't the figures be similar (or worse) the further back in time you go?

Ed.

[Edward Yee]

In general I'm wondering the proportion of Second-Lifers in Heaven corresponding to "level of improvement (if any) their new lot was over their past ones," as this is data that could be used to "guesstimate" (I know, bad idea) the extent and levels of "Reconstruction" needed, partially based on geographical area. If any of the souls in the Choir are still coherent, they'll pretty sure be happy to not have to sing anymore I would think, but if Benedict's opinion and situation are the on-average norm in Heaven...

[PaperJack]

I was thinking, since second-lifers have incredible regenerative powers, wouldn't that make them ideal organ donors?
A second lifer could give like 50 liters of blood in a day and feel well, or give a kidney every week (since they regrow), or have their heart transplanted and have their circulation continued by machine until the vital organ grows back.

[Marko Dash]

except that the organs would soon die on earth.

[Akalabeth]

Regardless of the human situation the angels themselves are going to be the huge problem though. I'm trying to find numbers for the angels, but I can't seem to. I don't think it was stated in story. But even if all the humans wanted to throw off their angelic oppressors (doubtful, but at least in the city there's probably a sizable minority that do) most angels don't seem to be looking for new management. I can see that being enough of a problem to make things turn out badly, the humans are just icing on the cake as it were.

I think the relatively little combat the angels have seen is also going to make the upcoming changes a lot harder to face. The baldricks aweful experiences with human weaponry (emphasis on awe) seems to have given them a strange sort of hero-worship attitude towards the humans. Maybe that's not quite the right word, but they want to emulate us pretty bad, and given how hellish demonic society was, most of the remaining demons have probably had their quality of life improve a tiny bit. Heaven seems like a relatively more comfortable place for the angels, and the vast majority haven't really had their inferiority to modern humans really shown in such an aggressive manner. Maybe if enough nuke survivors make it back and enough angels get to see the long term effects there, but I doubt that'll be enough to drive the point home. What the angels would probably need are some more nukes, or conventional bombing runs on the Eternal City, or something, to let war-weariness set in. If only they had factories making tanks or something so we'd have some reason to bomb them .

I wonder, are there angels with similar conditions to the baldricks in the areas surrounding Dis? They seemed pretty happy to hear about Satan getting killed. It'll be interesting to hear the point of view of the lower class angels and baldricks of human occupied Heaven/Hell, but that'll probably need to wait until Lords of War.

Also, does anyone remember how tall Uriel was? I thought he was closer to 40 feet, but I can't seem to find a quote. If angel height varies as much as demons do, there might be human sized angels like there were with demons, not that that'll matter if they're in front of a camera .

Note: I don't know a ton about the American Reconstruction, may be talking out of my ass.

[Baughn]

That's an assumption. We don't know if the energy source they're using works per-cell, per-organ or just per-person.

The earlier discussion on cancer blobs suggests it's not per-cell, at least. If it's per-person, it's entirely possible that many of their organs could work just fine on Earth. For that matter, it's even possible that the ones we've seen have trouble on Earth.. only had trouble because they hadn't eaten anything recently.

A more likely problem would be rejection. Our immune systems tend to reject anything but a perfect match, and second-lifers are, well, anything but a perfect match.

[Stuart]

Also, does anyone remember how tall Uriel was? I thought he was closer to 40 feet, but I can't seem to find a quote.

Angels vary in size according to rank (as do daemons). The smallest (Ishim) are at the top edge of human sized (six to eight feet) while the largest are in the 30 - 40 feet bracket. A tiny handful of the very highest (including Michael) are almost 60 feet tall. Their buildings are scaled to match. However, remember it's a very sharp neck-down in terms of numbers. The overwhelming majority of angels are in the lowest categories.

[Simon_Jester]

Or indeed the "Great Leap Forward" in Maoist China. That too was a farce in a basket... Then again, Hitler's "radical reconstruction" of 30s Germany did work pretty well (as evil as that regime was), so massive, sweeping changes don't always go belly-up, but given Stuart's fresh batch of Word-of-God saying that post-SalWar Heaven and the post-CivWar American South will be roughly equivocal, the "farce in a basket" thing seems a certainty...

Dunno. The biggest difference I see is that no one back on Earth feels any impulse to let the angels go back to running things, as the plantation-owner class more or less managed to go back to running things in the postbellum South.

[Second Lifer donations would be a good idea] except that the organs would soon die on earth.

Well, dunno about blood. Blood might transfer or it might not. Organs would almost certainly not work, though

[Atlan]

You know, with the upheaval of Angelic society, and the loss of a great number of males leaving a sizable number of females without a husband, plus the not too large size discrepancy between the lower Angels and humans, I have to wonder:
Will there be any war brides?

I mean, the average Angel might not have a very human-friendly mindset, but there's allways people willing to do whatever it takes to survive, and Angels ARE stunningly beautiful by human standards.

[Darth Yan]

I'm wondering if we are going to encounter muhammed in heaven.

[Guardsman Bass]

A tiny handful of the very highest (including Michael) are almost 60 feet tall.

Michael-Lan is sixty feet tall? That really screws with my mental image of him.

Man, Yahweh must really be gigantic, then. It's starting to make sense of how he could keep a pet the size of "Wuffles".

[Atlan]

A tiny handful of the very highest (including Michael) are almost 60 feet tall.

Michael-Lan is sixty feet tall? That really screws with my mental image of him.

Man, Yahweh must really be gigantic, then. It's starting to make sense of how he could keep a pet the size of "Wuffles".

And this, children, is why an F18's 20 mm cannon isn't immediate and sudden death for an angel like Uriel.

[Simon_Jester]

A tiny handful of the very highest (including Michael) are almost 60 feet tall.

Michael-Lan is sixty feet tall? That really screws with my mental image of him.

Man, Yahweh must really be gigantic, then. It's starting to make sense of how he could keep a pet the size of "Wuffles".

Bass, one question: where's the quote from? At this point, the thread is so long that searching the whole thing for this passage would be a bit prohibitive.

[Guardsman Bass]

A tiny handful of the very highest (including Michael) are almost 60 feet tall.

Michael-Lan is sixty feet tall? That really screws with my mental image of him.

Man, Yahweh must really be gigantic, then. It's starting to make sense of how he could keep a pet the size of "Wuffles".

Bass, one question: where's the quote from? At this point, the thread is so long that searching the whole thing for this passage would be a bit prohibitive.

Just go up a few posts on this page.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Are abigor and the greater dukes similar in height? I'd assumed he was around 15-20 feet tall, 60 makes some of his interactions with humans seem a bit more unlikely.

[Jeremy]

So how big are human apartments? If Lemuel is comparable to Maion then are Human apartments built to Angel size?

Are there any angel sopranos?

What kind of pole do they dance on at Michael's club?

And further more, a 20ft (or there abouts) dominatrix? General Dynamics Land Systems, that is terrifying.

[Akalabeth]

I believe it was stated that all buildings had to be built big enough for angels to fit in (presumably only the smaller angels) when Lemuel was investigating the second conspiracy.

[Tamahori]

I think the relatively little combat the angels have seen is also going to make the upcoming changes a lot harder to face. The baldricks aweful experiences with human weaponry (emphasis on awe) seems to have given them a strange sort of hero-worship attitude towards the humans. Maybe that's not quite the right word, but they want to emulate us pretty bad, and given how hellish demonic society was, most of the remaining demons have probably had their quality of life improve a tiny bit. Heaven seems like a relatively more comfortable place for the angels, and the vast majority haven't really had their inferiority to modern humans really shown in such an aggressive manner. Maybe if enough nuke survivors make it back and enough angels get to see the long term effects there, but I doubt that'll be enough to drive the point home. What the angels would probably need are some more nukes, or conventional bombing runs on the Eternal City, or something, to let war-weariness set in. If only they had factories making tanks or something so we'd have some reason to bomb them .

That's going to be a problem, and given the speed, and willingness to deploy everything they have, that the Human forces have right now, it's likely to be a very quick battle. Which means that Angels might not get the chance to learn just how scary humanity can be.

Even Michael has this problem. He knows in his head that humanity will wipe the floor with them, but he doesn't really feel it in his heart like Abigor does. You can see it in how he behaves around humans, he still sees the ones in his club as his property, he sees the people he's been dealing with as annoying because he's having to be nice to humans, he just doesn't 'feel the fear'. You get the same thing in the people working for them too.

He still views humanity as a tool he can use to an extent. Oh, he may tell himself that he's doing all this because the humans are going to win regardless, and he should do everything he can to make sure the angelic population, if not the society, survives the war, but deep down in his heart, emotionally he still views us as a bunch of uppity talking chimps with some cute ideas. His attitude towards us is, when it comes down to it, caution, a touch of respect, and a hell of a lot of condescension, and I'm not sure how well he'll hide that in a) his direct interactions with the human forces when, assuming he survives, it comes time to try and work out a deal, and b) his planning and behavior. And that could get him, and his people, into trouble.

Abigor comes across as a leader (he was as much a feudal lord as he was a general) who's trying to do whats best for his people. In part he's working with the humans because he knows the'll crush him like a bug if he doesn't, but deeper than that, he, I feel, genuinely respects them. He sees the human life-style as one that's better for all involved then the current demon life-style, and is working to improve the lot of his people (and by extension himself) in what's often a fairly statesmanlike kind of way. I'm assuming he'll be wanting to keep some demonic cultural traditions (though frankly, we don't know a lot about pre-invasion demonic culture except as it related directly to the top ranks, or how they dealt with humanity) if he thinks they are good ones, but largely his long term goal seems to be to learn everything he can off humanity, especially their cultural traditions, and use them. Maybe some day he'll be a threat to us again, but that will probably be more like a conflict between two modern day countries, not a 'we're taking over because we're just better than you and deserve to be in charge'. You tend to see that in the demons too, they got broken by the war, and it was probably for the best in the long run. (And there is me being pretty damn condescending, but still.)

Michael comes across as mob-boss who's trying to do what's best for his people. He seems to see the problem with angelic society to be Yahwah, not the society itself. He can describe the situation in the club as one of "saving them from a worse fate" (which he has, let's not be wrong here), but he still treats the humans in his club as property he can just use as he pleases. Oh, he's a very nice slave-master, and works by talking them into an idea, rather than just ordering them to do it, but in his head he's pissed off that he's having to be nice to them. I think he respects humanity as a group, but I don't think he currently (and might not ever) respects any individual humans, they are just too far below him for him to see why a single human could, in some way, be important I think. And with a few exceptions (those that have been healed or seen a close friend being healed up after the camp) I can't help but think that's going to be the typical angelic viewpoint on them, without the respect for humanity as a whole. If the human victory over Heaven goes too fast and too well, then the angels won't be broken by it in the same way the demons were, which means in the long run, they won't learn the kind of harsh lessons they need to, or if they do, it will take a lot longer, and they'll be learning them from a much less sympathetic humanity.

Lamuel is probably the best Abigor style potential leader they have. He's got reasons to feel indebted to individual humans, and he's not taking that too badly, he's even starting to see demons, or at least a demon, in a new light as well. He's one of the few angels that's ever apologized to a human and really meant it. I think his relationship with Maion might still have problems in the long run, but I think he has real potential to be the kind of leader the Angels need. However the Angels themselves won't be even close to accepting that somebody like him would be capable of ruling them, unless a) they get curb-stomped by the humans (sad to say, the nuclear initiation is probably not going to do it by itself, too far away, to 'second hand information', not like the siege of Dis was, the total destruction of Satan's palace, Satan himself having to go into hiding, etc), and b) the other potential leaders (pretty much everyone in Michael's rank for a start) are eliminated, or very publicly supporting him (which seems less likely than them all getting killed). I think, in the long run, Michael would make quite a bad leader, he's picked up too many bad habits off us (see: Mob Boss), though I could see him, unlike any of the others, being willing to stand aside and support Lamuel (and that might even be what he's setting up Lamuel for, and he's probably the one person that could put together a plan that could have the bulk of angelic society going along with it), though that would be either a) so he can rule from behind the scenes (potentially bad), or b) just shift to running the Heaven Underworld he's been setting up (potentially not too bad ... crime is going to happen, and horrible as he can be, he's still better than crime lords we've had ourselves).

I wonder, are there angels with similar conditions to the baldricks in the areas surrounding Dis? They seemed pretty happy to hear about Satan getting killed. It'll be interesting to hear the point of view of the lower class angels and baldricks of human occupied Heaven/Hell, but that'll probably need to wait until Lords of War.

It's possible, after all, the angels do seem to have a basically human mentality, under their thick layers of a very non-human upbringing and social conditioning (much like the demons in fact), so it does seem quite plausible that a lot of lower ranked angels (which do make up the vast bulk of their population) aren't entirely happy with being locked in their current position as menial (less so then humans, but still) servants for all of eternity.

As I've said elsewhere, regardless of anything else, angelic society is likely to fragment under what's coming their way, and that's going to be quite bad for a lot of them in the short run, and might be the saving of them in the long run, if they do manage to learn from it. (I'll admit, I'm bigoted enough to think that current human society, at least large chunks of it, is better in the long run than what they have now).

-- Brett, who's kind of disturbed by how long this got.

[Tamahori]

Angels vary in size according to rank (as do daemons). The smallest (Ishim) are at the top edge of human sized (six to eight feet) while the largest are in the 30 - 40 feet bracket. A tiny handful of the very highest (including Michael) are almost 60 feet tall. Their buildings are scaled to match. However, remember it's a very sharp neck-down in terms of numbers. The overwhelming majority of angels are in the lowest categories.

That must make interactions with them tricky at times. Somebody on Micheal's scale is going to be close on ten times the size of some of the people he's interacting with, it's like having a six-story building come up and talk to you, that's immense. I mean everyone in Heaven will be used to stuff like that, but it does explain some of the towering architecture that you see in Heaven. There aren't comments about Michael ducking when in the apartment that Maion is given, so that implies she's walking around in a room where the ceiling is three times her height.

For angels in Maion's size range, it must be like living in a ballroom would be for us. For a human, it would be ... well, I'm not sure what the comparison is. Go to a building that has a 6 of 7 story high internal foyer, imagine your bedroom being like that, or your office. Yaywah's temple is probably, for any human that ends up inside it, like taking a tour around NASA's vehicle assembly building.

I'm thinking 'face to face' conversations for somebody like Michael are a rare event, though again, their society will be used to it. It does mean that when dealing with angels, they probably don't see any need for you to be talking to their face, rather then their knee.

Hmmm, also implies that Maion was not a lowly ranked angel, or at least not the lowest rank. 20 feet must be getting towards the top of the hight range of the majority of angels. Lamuel was fairly high ranking, so he's probably taller then Maion ... Onniel would most likely have been taller then her too, she was the same general rank as Lamuel, though a bit shorter and weaker (based on comments when he physically threw her out of their house).

Now, we know ranks can get changed. Michael talked about increasing Maion's rank ... is that a different kind of rank from the rank that defines size (i.e. a 'species rank' vs 'political/social rank'), or do you get angels that don't have the physical size their rank implies, or (seems very unlikely, though given their crazy biology, not entirely out of the question) does changing an angel's rank, over time, change their physical size? Though what Michael was talking about, with the rank change, could be at least as unusual event as when Onniel was booted out, so there really isn't a lot of precedent.

-- Brett

[Tamahori]

You know, with the upheaval of Angelic society, and the loss of a great number of males leaving a sizable number of females without a husband, plus the not too large size discrepancy between the lower Angels and humans, I have to wonder:
Will there be any war brides?

I mean, the average Angel might not have a very human-friendly mindset, but there's allways people willing to do whatever it takes to survive, and Angels ARE stunningly beautiful by human standards.

Well, given I'd been assuming up till now that Maion was a typical size for a female angel, war-brides seemed unlikely. However if the majority of them are in a human compatible size (even 8 feet tall isn't out of the question, of course at 6'4" myself, I've probably got an odd idea on what 'overly tall' is. ), and given my predicted damage that's likely to happen to angelic society, you could see something like that happening.

Also your typical 6' tall angel, of either gender, is going to be at the bottom of the rank structure. Which means that they live lives which is either going to be menial service, or instructing humans in doing menial service. If they can get past their lack of respect for humans (which comes down to how badly they get broken by the war) then for a chunk of them linking up with a human partner (first or second life) could be quite an improvement in their personal freedom and life-style. More so for the female angels, because everything we've seen seem to imply a very old-fashioned 'the wife is the property of her husband or father' mind-set. I'm not sure how the 'property of the father' thing works, given how rare angelic children are (if they happen at all ... note them getting called "never-born" by Memnon, though that could just be a standard slur) but based on Maion's previous life before the club, she didn't seem to have a lot of options with her life, and she's quite a bit higher ranking (based on height if nothing else) than the 6 - 8 foot angels were talking about here.

Though I dread to think how people would react to somebody on Earth wanting to get legally married to an angel ... especially if it's in the US and the angel then wants a green card. Same applies with demons too ... Luga doesn't seem the marrying type, but it might make sense to another succubus. I expect it would be less of an issue if Drippy found some compatible second-life human, because they'll probably be Roman, and he's already (I assume) considered a Roman (if not yet a citizen ... we don't know if he owns land or not).

Loosely related: I'm thinking the image of 'traditional church wedding' has had to change.

-- Brett

[Tamahori]

Heh, Luga probably doesn't realize it, but with her very public lifestyle, she's going to be setting a lot of the model for how people think about Succubi, for good and ill.

Of course, you assume she's not a typical succubi. There's a reason for stereotypes. Good or bad, they're an effective form of mental shorthand - cheat sheets for an entire population, as it were.

Oh, she probably is fairly typical for her species/culture. I didn't say she'll be setting an incorrect model for how people think about Succubi.

However, it does mean that any other succubi interacting with first-life humanity is going to find that people are likely to assume the'll be like Luga. Hard to say how well, or badly, they'll take this. She does have quite a bit of political cred back home though, so they might not take it too badly. Heck, she has more political cred on Earth than I think even she realizes ... they ability for famous people, famous often just for being famous, to influence culture, is sometimes kind of scary.

-- Brett

[Tamahori]

So how big are human apartments? If Lemuel is comparable to Maion then are Human apartments built to Angel size?

Are there any angel sopranos?

What kind of pole do they dance on at Michael's club?

And further more, a 20ft (or there abouts) dominatrix? General Dynamics Land Systems, that is terrifying.

Hmm, you would expect an angel to have a low pitched voice, though even very large creatures can put out high pitched sounds, so they could just have voice-boxes 'pitched high' as it were.

I'm guessing Maion's pole would have to be something that could be used as a primary structural support for a major building. She's not going to be the biggest angel they have using it.

You've really got to wonder about some of the physical interactions she'd have had as part of her job. I mean a lap-dance from her could crush a low-ranking (8 ft) angel, and taking one to bed would be ... fiddly on her part. At the other extreme, we know Micheal did think about taking her to bed (or at least that's the impression I got, even if he didn't do it) and ... well, I know there are a lot of non-penetrative ways to have fun, but still, youch. Nothing she wouldn't recover from, but that's got to smart. In practice though, the worst she'd likely have been facing is somebody twice her height, which may still fall into 'punishment customer' category.

I wonder what the hight difference between her and Lamuel is. Close enough I'm guessing, they did choose her with him in mind right back at the start.

Heh, 20ft dominatrix? From the sound of it, Leilah-Lan-Charmeine is higher ranking than Maion ... we could be talking about a 40ft dominatrix. Be afraid, be very afraid (and if she's that big, then your curse is oddly accurate, she probably is big enough to dominate a tank, in close combat at least ).

-- Brett

[CaptainChewbacca]

Though I dread to think how people would react to somebody on Earth wanting to get legally married to an angel ... especially if it's in the US and the angel then wants a green card. Same applies with demons too ... Luga doesn't seem the marrying type, but it might make sense to another succubus. I expect it would be less of an issue if Drippy found some compatible second-life human, because they'll probably be Roman, and he's already (I assume) considered a Roman (if not yet a citizen ... we don't know if he owns land or not).

Loosely related: I'm thinking the image of 'traditional church wedding' has had to change.

-- Brett

I've read (though I can't find the citation) that extending constitutional citizenship to cover non-humans would require an ammendment. It was somewhere talking about Aliens, though I think it applies here.