The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm. I think the size disparity issue may be a little too far here. Having angels running up to sixty feet tall interacting meaningfully with twenty foot underlings (who are the size of toddlers to them) is tricky. Having them interact meaningfully with ten foot underlings (angels the size of your typical demon foot soldier like Drippy) or humans, even trickier.

[Tamahori]

Hmm. I think the size disparity issue may be a little too far here. Having angels running up to sixty feet tall interacting meaningfully with twenty foot underlings (who are the size of toddlers to them) is tricky. Having them interact meaningfully with ten foot underlings (angels the size of your typical demon foot soldier like Drippy) or humans, even trickier.

It can be managed. Look at the Transformers movies for a guide for creatures with the kind of size disparity we're talking about here would look like talking to each other. (I wouldn't recommend watching said movies for many other reasons though, I'm getting a very low opinion of Michel Bay these days)

For the second movie, Wheelie (the one that transforms into an remote controlled truck) interacting with the larger bots. I'd have to sit down and watch bits of the films (which is probably doable if you fast-forward though the Three Stooges sections) to try and work out specific examples, but you can get an idea how it would work there. It's odd, but doable.

-- Brett

[Akalabeth]

Hmm. I think the size disparity issue may be a little too far here. Having angels running up to sixty feet tall interacting meaningfully with twenty foot underlings (who are the size of toddlers to them) is tricky. Having them interact meaningfully with ten foot underlings (angels the size of your typical demon foot soldier like Drippy) or humans, even trickier.

Well Michael probably doesn't interact with the ten foot angels a whole lot, if ever. The areas of Heaven where he spends most of his time are probably relatively exclusive. As for interacting with Lemuel, he could sit crosslegged maybe, assuming he would want to not tower over him. Given their social structure though, maybe your underlings being the size of children to you is something they prefer.

Now, we know ranks can get changed. Michael talked about increasing Maion's rank ... is that a different kind of rank from the rank that defines size (i.e. a 'species rank' vs 'political/social rank'), or do you get angels that don't have the physical size their rank implies, or (seems very unlikely, though given their crazy biology, not entirely out of the question) does changing an angel's rank, over time, change their physical size? Though what Michael was talking about, with the rank change, could be at least as unusual event as when Onniel was booted out, so there really isn't a lot of precedent.

I had originally assumed demonic size was based on the whole torture energy thing, although that stopped being plausible pretty quick, since it doesn't seem like there's anything to suggest that had any factual basis. Size could be related to diet though maybe, or some other socioeconomic factor. Higher ranked angels/demons eat better, which causes them to grow. Or hell, if we really want to think of some sciencey explanation, the simple act of having other angels/demons defer to them could set off some sort of hormonal change, gradually increasing their growth. Kind of makes me think of naked mole rats. The queen is much bigger than the workers due to hormones, although the mechanism behind why a mole rat turns into a queen is a lot simpler.

Maybe just apply Bellisario's Maxim. It is a story after all.

[EdBecerra]

And further more, a 20ft (or there abouts) dominatrix? General Dynamics Land Systems, that is terrifying.

*laughs*

My first girlfriend, when she was on the clock, was a professional domme in Nuremburg. So trust me, I speak from experience when I say that a twenty foot tall dominatrix could gather quite a clientele if she wished.

(And no, I wasn't one of her customers. She didn't bring her work home with her. Thank GDLS. )

Ed.

[Edward Yee]

Regarding the question of angelic war-brides, it can be answered with a three-word question: "Will it fit?"

Suddenly the comparison to Reconstruction, for all the differences (thanks to sheer difference) compared to the ACW, fills me with trepidation... Worst part is, the HEA command structure isn't aware of the potential to get a better long-term result by slowing down the pace of the offensive... well, whatever direction it takes in the wake of The Incident.

[EdBecerra]

Well, given I'd been assuming up till now that Maion was a typical size for a female angel, war-brides seemed unlikely. However if the majority of them are in a human compatible size (even 8 feet tall isn't out of the question, of course at 6'4" myself, I've probably got an odd idea on what 'overly tall' is. ), and given my predicted damage that's likely to happen to angelic society, you could see something like that happening.
-- Brett

Now THAT brings to mind Mickey Rooney's famous encounter with Jayne Mansfield.

"Who- Who wants to be tall?"



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xoirp_ ... shortfilms

Ed.

[GrayAnderson]

Wow...big shot of activity the last few days. Took me a bit to get caught up. And, as usual, I've got one of my little lists of thoughts/comments/questions:

1) Thanks for the info, Stuart. I'd wondered about that stuff for some time, so thanks for the info.

2) Seeing as there is a (to quote Macbeth) "damned spot" down in the Gulf IRL and knowing that Stuart sticks to RL as best he can, I can't help but wonder if there aren't some portal-y tricks that could be applied to either plug the well or divert the oil. Pranks about a gusher in the heavenly palaces aside (much as it would be fun to see), the main thoughts are diverting the flow into a mine or simply putting a portal into a bunch of rock in place (at least theoretically putting an ersatz plug on the well).

3) Good to see some of the 'string-pullers' make another appearance. Stuart, I've got to wonder (and I understand if you don't want to tell) how their power is compared to the humans' power.

4) I hate to be dubious, but aren't you going to run into some limits on circulatory systems on the scales you're talking about? If not, what are the practical limits of such systems in an earth-type gravity situation (dare I ask)?

[Jeremy]

Well, 10ft and 1200lbs (Gigantopithecus) seems to be the upper limit for the traditional layout of apes.

I wouldn't be surprised if these angelic gas bladders are partially inflated all the time to give buoyancy to the giants.
Those large bodied angels might be predominantly gas bladders.

[open_sketchbook]

As their is definately an intelligent hand in the creation of both current angels and demons and the state of the universes they live in it seems absurd that the powers that be wouldn't do some cheating in the margins to strech the scale and power of them both to the absolute limits of anything resembling conventional physics. It's remotely possible the biggest guys are just walking distortions of space-time at this point built entirely for scale, with blood vessels shorter on the inside or something; once it becomes impossible to walk a straight line in Hell you open the floodgates to all sorts of wierdness.

However, I think it's much more likely they just take full advantage of some wierd little quirk in the "Over Laws" of our heaven/earth/hell multiverse that we've not figured out yet because it doesn't exist the same way in our universe.

[GrayAnderson]

Fair points. It is interesting looking at the story from a "traditional" intelligent design standpoint (that is, the real ID which posits some sort of divine hand in things, not the re-labeled version of New Earth Creationism), and see what you get with the ability to run long-term evolutionary experiments. Some thoughts in this vein hit my mind concerning Daybreakers and the society that would've emerged there (intriguing spin on the whole vampire thing, btw), but it's interesting looking at an applied version of it here. I'm still curious at those practical limits, though...how big would your gas bladder need to be to lift Mikey?

Another point: Stuart, you really haven't conveyed intra-angelic height differences in the story that I recall. I might've simply overlooked it, but I don't recall it being pointed out that Mikey towers over Lemuel, for example.

[EdBecerra]

Well, 10ft and 1200lbs (Gigantopithecus) seems to be the upper limit for the traditional layout of apes.

I wouldn't be surprised if these angelic gas bladders are partially inflated all the time to give buoyancy to the giants.
Those large bodied angels might be predominantly gas bladders.

*snerk*

Well, then, the female angels shouldn't have much trouble, they gots... nah, ain't gonna say it.

Of course, by that same token, I can see some angel exiled to Earth going "This Dolly Parton person you speak of, what part of the Holy City is she from?"

*snicker*

Ed (the lecherous)

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm. I think the size disparity issue may be a little too far here. Having angels running up to sixty feet tall interacting meaningfully with twenty foot underlings (who are the size of toddlers to them) is tricky. Having them interact meaningfully with ten foot underlings (angels the size of your typical demon foot soldier like Drippy) or humans, even trickier.

It can be managed. Look at the Transformers movies for a guide for creatures with the kind of size disparity we're talking about here would look like talking to each other.

Okay. Strictly speaking, yes, they can interact. But, just to take an example, the Montmartre Club is going to be a hell of a lot less entertaining if some of the participants are four times the size of some of the others. They can't all be giant/midget fetishists, after all.

[GrayAnderson]

Hmm. I think the size disparity issue may be a little too far here. Having angels running up to sixty feet tall interacting meaningfully with twenty foot underlings (who are the size of toddlers to them) is tricky. Having them interact meaningfully with ten foot underlings (angels the size of your typical demon foot soldier like Drippy) or humans, even trickier.

It can be managed. Look at the Transformers movies for a guide for creatures with the kind of size disparity we're talking about here would look like talking to each other.

Okay. Strictly speaking, yes, they can interact. But, just to take an example, the Montmartre Club is going to be a hell of a lot less entertaining if some of the participants are four times the size of some of the others. They can't all be giant/midget fetishists, after all.

Good point here...Maion is a "junior female angel" acc. to the story, which raises questions of whether she'd be of the same rank as Lemuel (and therefore of the same size according to this statement) or whether there'd be a substantial size disparity there. You also raise the issue of getting a sixty-foot Michael into many facilities designed for smaller angels (houses, etc.). Hell, for that matter you raise the issue of "the facilities" themselves: A toilet large enough for Mikey would likely have one of the smaller ones "fall in".

I hate to jump on a bandwagon, but I think you probably need to consolidate these figures down a bit for the sake of realism. Mind you, I can accept a slow, steady "continued growth" in cases of older angels (think crocodiles), but regardless...something doesn't quite fit here, and I don't exactly get images if Mikey striking down angels 1/10 his size in the combat scene you did with the faux rebel group he set up to raid. Something isn't being conveyed well in terms of scale...I know angels and demons are bigger than humans, but I simply didn't get images of the size disparities you're talking about. My thought? Keep most of the angels within a 2:1 range. You can have outliers like Michael, but the way I read it your smaller castes were 1/5 the height of the larger castes...which is basically coming up to their knees. I got this with the bigger demon who had an aide for breakfast...I've never quite picked up on that, though I might just be a bit oblivious.

P.S. I found a typo: In Ch. 5, you refer to an "owl of wrath". I know they may get irritable, but...

[EdBecerra]

P.S. I found a typo: In Ch. 5, you refer to an "owl of wrath". I know they may get irritable, but...

Maybe they're just grumpy from all the work they do at Hogworts?

Ed.

[GrayAnderson]

P.S. I found a typo: In Ch. 5, you refer to an "owl of wrath". I know they may get irritable, but...

Maybe they're just grumpy from all the work they do at Hogworts?

Ed.

Either that or Athena's pissed!

[Tamahori]

Suddenly the comparison to Reconstruction, for all the differences (thanks to sheer difference) compared to the ACW, fills me with trepidation... Worst part is, the HEA command structure isn't aware of the potential to get a better long-term result by slowing down the pace of the offensive... well, whatever direction it takes in the wake of The Incident.

I could be entirely off in my assessments of course, a) I haven't properly studied stuff like this (unlike our respected author I'm expecting), I just have heard a bunch of stuff that post-war-zone tends to suck, and b) Michael is a lot brighter than I am, so he's likely to have considered a bunch of these factors, though maybe not all of them.

-- Brett

[OmegaChief]

To go back a little in the conversation a most hilarious thought occured to me, as we've seen once we took over hell we gave them such wonders as the Internet, do you think we'll do the same for heaven?

If so imagine the flame wars between angels and demons!

[iidave]

First post woo!

There is a lot of talk about "war brides" when it comes to angels, but I find "war crimes" a much more likely possibility.
You have a bunch of recent widows whose husbands were killed by an invading force. Other than concentration-camp survivors they will consider humans murderous conquerors and will have little positive feelings for them.
On the other hand they are a part of society that has inflicted quite unimagineable misery on first life humans, second life humans and demons. Plenty of those will want SOME form of revenge and having a plenty of attractive (to humans, not sure about demons) females in their hands...

[PaperJack]

If so imagine the flame wars between angels and demons!

hotdmness33 replies: HELL 4 EVA
gotwings9618 replies: no fuk u fagts u gt pwnd in d war
supaorkwaagh2 replies: u got pwnd 2 noob
hotdmness33 replies: ur both lowlives i swear i kno where u both live and im gonna kick yore fuking asses you fags
supaorkwaagh2 replies: im nt scared of u lol
gotwings9618 replies: hotdmness33 if u come here im teh one kiking ur ass
hotdmness33 replies: COME SAY THAT TO MY FACE FGT
hotdmness33 replies: I DARE YOU
hotdmness33 replies: I FUKIN DARE YOU
supaorkwaagh2 replies: lol u mad
hotdmness33 replies: no u fagt ull end up liek humanz b4 libertion if u keep dirsresprecting me i swear
supaorkwaagh2 replies: u mean im gonna pwn u rly bad later ?
gotwings9618 replies: rofl hotdmness33 got ownd
hotdmness33 replies: fuk u both u virgin fgts ull alwys stay fags fags fags nd die in a shithole
*hodmness33 has logged out*
supaorkwaagh2 replies: lol ragequit
gotwings9618 replies: hur hur hur

[Stuart]

I hate to jump on a bandwagon, but I think you probably need to consolidate these figures down a bit for the sake of realism.

I agree; I'll rethink them. It's a matter of a compromise between what is sensible, what is possible and the demands of mythology.

[MarshalPurnell]

Well, some of the mythology can just be dismissed as hyperbole and garbled exaggeration. To a malnourished early agrarian population in an area with no writing, an angel standing 8-9 feet tall might turn into a giant 30 feet tall within two or three generations.

[Simon_Jester]

It's reasonable to make the biggest angels around twenty feet high, the mid-rankers around fifteen, and the low-rankers around ten. Maion's background might have to be revised so that she's physically large enough to be attractive to Lemuel and Michael without them having a midget fetish, but other than that we can mostly patch things together.

Remember that we mostly haven't seen the low-ranking angels; pretty much everyone Michael interacts with (except, in theory, Maion) is a mid-ranker.

[westrim]

There do need to be allowances when an angel's size is more of an issue in story. Uriel could just be an unnaturally large angel that because of his size got his role; he has to be large for the dogfights he gets in to not instafrag him. Yahweh is large and in charge, so He and Uriel could both be something huge like 60 feet. But for most of the angels that we see the humans of heaven have interactions with, the max (that is, Michael) should be 20 feet.

I think that Avatar is a good example of the measuring stick we should use. At 10 feet the Na'vi positively towered over any human, but they were just within the bounds of what we could reasonably interact with. Much more than that is just too tall.

But there will be lots of checking over to do. At least once Michael makes a motion to Lemuel (I think putting his arm around his shoulders) that would be very awkward if the difference was more than a couple feet. Maion is fairly low ranking as far as I know, but she has to be within a meter of Lemuel's height for them doing the horizontal boogie to not look very wrong in my head (though, how do they boogie with those wings in the way?).

[tortieconspiracy]

There's also the matter of his interactions with the Myanmar junta and his visits to Vegas. While it's made clear that he's bigger than the men of the junta, it's not immediately evident that he's that much bigger. Also, if he's that huge, it would be hard for him to go unnoticed in Vegas.

[DKeith2011]

I think that Avatar is a good example of the measuring stick we should use. At 10 feet the Na'vi positively towered over any human, but they were just within the bounds of what we could reasonably interact with. Much more than that is just too tall.

Seconded. Ten feet +/- a few inches for the Michael, Abigor and similar other movers and shakers would be practical for story purposes.

Of course, Satan and Yah Yah could range upwards from there a bit since they seem to exceed practical limits in just about every other way.