Tailored IFVs/MBTs

[Shannon]

Okay, this thread is related to this one:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=140918

in that the alien antagonists are the same and still want to wipe out humanity. However, the planet-killing magitech they employ there is extremely energy intensive and can't be used at a whim.

Therefore, there is a need for smaller forces and in this case, ground forces. The aliens have the support of their capships in orbit but negligible air support. However, their ground combat capabilities are reasonably impressive: their warrior caste, being centauroid (as described in the original thread, about halfway down the page) can reach speeds of 160kph+ on level ground. They are very resistant to kinetic energy weapons, able to shrug off anything short of dedicated antivehicle weaponry, and even then being hard to kill. They carry standard 'blaster' type directed energy weapons that pack about as much punch as a Browning HMG (or a couple of grenades) and heavy DEWs that compare well with tank weaponry of 105mm/120mm calibre.

They are also pretty dumb and tactically not very innovative, relying on large numbers (compared to the numbers of humans available to fight them), cavalry tactics, outflanking and overruning most defenders. They're aided in this by direction from generals and Queens who are much smarter, and by their Queens' ability to also teleport them inside defensive lines. (A smaller plot point is the acquisition by humans of the tech to counter this teleportation.) Their weaponry was not always as impressive, as most of the humans they've fought just couldn't compare, being low-tech societies. The current bunch of humans are much tougher and the aliens have upgraded. Overkill is their style.

My question to the board is this: how do you design an IFV or MBT to fight such beings?

Part of their mobility can obviously be countered by airpower, but there is also a need for a resilient, mobile ground defensive/offensive vehicle that can take the hits that the aliens can dish out, allow the troops to hit back, and be mobile enough to avoid being completely outflanked/overrun.

I've already looked at a number of real-world and sf vehicles. The one I like best so far is the Merkava IV:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava_IV

It has reasonable speed, heavy protection (though possibility not as heavy as I need: survivability is extremely important for the humans given their lower numbers, much like the Israelis with the Merkava) and an array of versatile firepower. I thought about hover capability to enhance mobility; with a main gun that is a rapid firing DEW with little to no recoil, this might not be a problem. I like the on-board mortar for its indirect fire capability.

The vehicles will fight from prepared positions where possible and will move in numbers where possible so as to concentrate fire.

I willingly confess to having only a passing knowledge of such things, so I'm willing to be corrected on any number of points.

Thoughts?

[adam_grif]

They are very resistant to kinetic energy weapons, able to shrug off anything short of dedicated antivehicle weaponry, and even then being hard to kill.

...

Please tell me this is WITH ARMOR.

They carry standard 'blaster' type directed energy weapons that pack about as much punch as a Browning HMG (or a couple of grenades)

.50 cal rounds and grenades aren't really in the same league for energy transfer. Or do you mean they sometimes carry blasters and sometimes carry grenades?

their warrior caste, being centauroid (as described in the original thread, about halfway down the page) can reach speeds of 160kph+ on level ground.

[Kuroji]

However, their ground combat capabilities are reasonably impressive: their warrior caste, being centauroid (as described in the original thread, about halfway down the page) can reach speeds of 160kph+ on level ground.

A hunded miles an hour. Yeah how about NO. Go do some calculations on how much energy it would require for them to move that fast, not to mention how much stress it would put on their bodies.

They are very resistant to kinetic energy weapons, able to shrug off anything short of dedicated antivehicle weaponry, and even then being hard to kill.

Impervious to bullets. Yeah, explain how?

Overkill is their style.

Well yeah, they've apparently got skin that's made of steel a few inches thick and they can run faster than most cars travel, barring perhaps the autobahn.

My question to the board is this: how do you design an IFV or MBT to fight such beings?

Seriously? They're advancing at ludicrous speed. Screw the ground battle, keep air superiority and strafe the fuck out of them. Let's see them shrug off 30mm rounds.

Part of their mobility can obviously be countered by airpower, but there is also a need for a resilient, mobile ground defensive/offensive vehicle that can take the hits that the aliens can dish out, allow the troops to hit back, and be mobile enough to avoid being completely outflanked/overrun.

They're running around at a hundred miles an hour, there is virtually nothing of use that ground troops can do when they're more than specks on the fucking horizon because they will advance two miles every minute.

[Kuroji]

Actually, I take it back, there is a very simple thing that just occured to me that can be put on the ground to slow or halt their advance.

Caltrops.

[Sarevok]

Landmines and razorwire should slow their advance down.

[Srelex]

What's with all the stupidly wanked proposals for Mary Sue creatures lately?

[Aaron]

So this is the Posleen turned up to 11, great. Invest in landmines.

[Tasoth]

I think shep brought up before that when fighting the posleen, slapping bushmaster chaingun on abrams would be pretty simple and would cut through the posleen like butter. And I think they use bushmasters to dismantle bunkers (albeit it slowly), I think they might work on these things.

[Starglider]

A hunded miles an hour. Yeah how about NO. Go do some calculations on how much energy it would require for them to move that fast, not to mention how much stress it would put on their bodies.

100 mph isn't unreasonable as a sprint speed. Cheetahs will do 75 mph, you only need say twice as effective muscles and bones as terrestial mammals for a centaur-size creature to do 100mph. Of course it will have to be lightly built and won't be able to sustain that speed for any length of time, not using anything remotely like conventional biology.

[Coyote]

Tanglefoot: a field of barbed-wire stretched between sticks in a vast horizontal lattice-work, suspended about a foot or so off the ground.

These are rediculously wanked critters. I mean, really.

[Coyote]

Of course it will have to be lightly built and won't be able to sustain that speed for any length of time, not using anything remotely like conventional biology.

That's the thing, though-- they are also able to "shrug off anything short of dedicated antivehicle weaponry". ( ). So either thick skin, or armor plate... again, the amount of power and calories required to get this creature going would be... wow.

[Terralthra]

A hunded miles an hour. Yeah how about NO. Go do some calculations on how much energy it would require for them to move that fast, not to mention how much stress it would put on their bodies.

100 mph isn't unreasonable as a sprint speed. Cheetahs will do 75 mph, you only need say twice as effective muscles and bones as terrestial mammals for a centaur-size creature to do 100mph. Of course it will have to be lightly built and won't be able to sustain that speed for any length of time, not using anything remotely like conventional biology.

Max recorded sprint speed for a horse is 55mph, and horses can't shrug off bullets, and the speed described in the link is sustained. Wank.

[Pelranius]

How much armor protection and mass would a tank need simply to just run over (or into) one of those creatures without damaging the tank itself?

[Starglider]

Max recorded sprint speed for a horse is 55mph, and horses can't shrug off bullets, and the speed described in the link is sustained. Wank.

Oh I agree, also 100 mph is only remotely possible on an almost perfectly flat, dry surface, will cause extreme pad/claw wear, and pose an extreme injury rate (when the animal inevitably catches its foot in a rut at that speed, you are looking at multiple shattered limbs minimum, possibly death). It's something that could conceivably evolve on a planet full of dry lakes where chase speed is the overwhelming dominating factor for predator success, but is completely impractical in a soldier.

[Sea Skimmer]

160kph land animals are dumb. Its also pretty pointless in story terms anyway, a large beast like land animal could move at 80kph much more realistically and it would still be faster then a tracked tank under some conditions. Tanks generally aren't going to get past 40-45kph moving cross country, and about 60-70kph on roads. The main limitation on cross country speed is simply how much the crew gets thrown around inside the tank.

I've already looked at a number of real-world and sf vehicles. The one I like best so far is the Merkava IV:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava_IV

It has reasonable speed, heavy protection (though possibility not as heavy as I need: survivability is extremely important for the humans given their lower numbers, much like the Israelis with the Merkava) and an array of versatile firepower. I thought about hover capability to enhance mobility; with a main gun that is a rapid firing DEW with little to no recoil, this might not be a problem. I like the on-board mortar for its indirect fire capability.

No one else on earth uses the engine front arrangement for a reason. Its way harder to repair a wrecked engine compartment then replace one or two dead tank crewmen. For Israel, population is critical, and the nation has more tanks per capita then any other nation on earth, but if you have the whole world fighting aliens then you will have far more personal for tank crews then available tanks. A rear engine is also much better for controlling the tanks infrared signature, and I would assume any aliens that can travel through space are rich enough to good FLIR goggles to every single solider they have. The Isreali's mainly use the mortar for smoke and illumination BTW, as an HE weapon a slow firing breach loading 60mm mortar is not very impressive though it has its uses. Against swarms of high speed alien warriors, a automatic grenade launcher would be much more useful.

[dworkin]

The Paneuropean Mk V Ogre should be able to get these critters running at 120 mph, briefly

And if it's a magi-tech universe I'ld like to request the experimental Mk Ia Ogrethullu.

[Shannon]

Stupid time zone difference.

OK - I'll try to address as many of the issues raised as I can.

Yes, they do wear armour, and yes, they use grenades as well as magitech blasters and have other missile weaponry too. These are big, strong creatures standing 2-3 metres tall. Heavy loads obviously slow them down, but when unencumbered they are fast - very fast. Energy consumption is not a problem for them - as described in the link from the OP, they subsist on energy channelled directly from their Queen caste, so that problem can be handwaved away. These critters don't have standard biology because they don't need it - their digestive organs have atrophied because they get their energy mainlined - it literally is magic.

I should have been more specific wrt their speed capabilities; the 160kph figure was an upper limit for straight-line, level-ground sprints. I am aware that this is twice as fast as a horse. I will scale it back to horse speed (or just a little faster) because I don't think this is unrealistic given that these creatures are extraordinarily resilient and have the aforementioned energy advantages.

I had already adopted the ideas of caltrops, razorwire and landmines. Also artillery barrages. Gas won't work so well because they don't need to breathe (much).

I know nothing about the Posleen, so I'll go look.

Likewise, thanks for the Bushmaster reference and information on the disadvantages of the Merkava design.

Population is critical for the humans as these aliens far outnumber them. The strategic situation is that life on Earth has been completely wiped out. As far as the aliens are concerned, all that is left is mopping up. There is one major human world left, but it has far lower population density (only about 1 billion at most, I have to work on that cos some of that is refugees). The humans can't afford to let the aliens find this world, so their battles take place as far away as possible. Thus the need for an AFV - the humans make planned strikes when they're able and they need their soldiers to come back alive to build the experience base of their forces, hence the OP.

What the hell is a Paneuropean Mk V Ogre (or an experimental Mk 1a Ogrethulu)?

[Aaron]

Nerve gas should work just fine, assuming their biology is anything like ours. It doesn't need to be inhaled, a tiny drop on the skin will be enough to kill one. Using persistent agents will also require them to operate in NBC gear 24/7 unless they want to decontaminate all the areas they operate in.

[Shannon]

Ok, thanks. I didn't know that.

Also, I'm downgrading the aliens' physical resilience more so that they are only highly resistant to conventional small arms fire. I think that that's within the grounds of reason, but if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will tell me.

[Ford Prefect]

I have to be honest guys, the level of invective coming up over an alien which can take .50 BMG and run at 120km/h is slightly overblown for a board which generally accepts Star Wars as having ray guns that rate in the hundreds or thousands of gigatons and engines that propell million ton starships at thousands of gees. Maybe lighten up a little? It's much gauranteed that almost all of you accept something which is far more unreasonable than this.

[Terralthra]

When those starships are explicitly described as organic, just as much invective is leveled at it. Organic materials aren't nearly as strong as metal.

[Imperial528]

I'd have to say that if you were to remove the main weaponry component of any version of the M1 Abrams (Preferably you would use the M1A2, it has much better armor) and use the now-empty weight capacity to mount a few more high caliber guns, and improve the engine efficiency so it doesn't have to be refueled every five hours, I'd say one of the modified Abrams could take on 5-15 of the alien soldiers you describe. The TUSK (Tank Urban Survival Kit) upgrade would be very helpful as well.

Either that or you could try making an MBT which can mount one of these in a swivel turret which can turn 360 at a very fast rate, and has enough space to hold vast amounts of ammunition. I can actually see it now, most likely it would be on an elevated turret to allow for further range and accuracy (the GAU-8 has a max range of over four thousand feet, and the bullet drops by ten feet on average at that range.)

Wait, if their starships are organic, we could actually nuke them out of the sky, provided we put enough independent warheads per launch vehicle that they can't possibly shoot them all.

And if the ground situation becomes hopeless, there's always nuclear bombing (assuming they can't simply shoot the bombers from orbit, but can shoot ICBMs) or if the defensive situation starts to take a downturn, nuclear landmines. The scary part being that someone actually decided to develop these in the first place.

[dworkin]

The MkV Ogre is a 50m 'cybertank'. It's 'bi-phase carbide' armour (whatever that is) laughs at conventional weaponry. Nuclear devices are required to harm it and coincidentally, are what it's armed with. Lots of them.

Ogres are the staring vehicles in the 80's Steve Jackson Games game of the same name. Nowadays it's a minitures game with all sorts of wierd shit nuking the crap out of each other.

They're baby Bolos really.

The Mk Ia Ogrethullu is what happens when your cybertank is possessed by cyclopean montrosities.

[Shannon]

Ooookaaay - and people accuse me of wank . . . whatever.

(Ahem) I never said my starships were organic - I never even hinted at it. I may be stupid but I ain't dumb.

For the record, the starships are not organic. These guys use magitech, not biotech.

Actually, it amazes me how many people who posted replies here apparently couldn't be bothered to read my original thread, where the aliens' capabilities were described.

[Agent Sorchus]

Either that or you could try making an MBT which can mount one of these in a swivel turret which can turn 360 at a very fast rate, and has enough space to hold vast amounts of ammunition. I can actually see it now, most likely it would be on an elevated turret to allow for further range and accuracy (the GAU-8 has a max range of over four thousand feet, and the bullet drops by ten feet on average at that range.)

That is rather great overkill and lacks range. 4000ft doesn't allow self supporting fire between formations. You would have a far better weapon taking a ship mounted 57mm bofors gun. 220 rounds a minute with a range of 20km allows for better support of distant groups.

They carry standard 'blaster' type directed energy weapons that pack about as much punch as a Browning HMG (or a couple of grenades) and heavy DEWs that compare well with tank weaponry of 105mm/120mm calibre.
...snip...
I've already looked at a number of real-world and sf vehicles. The one I like best so far is the Merkava IV:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava_IV

It has reasonable speed, heavy protection (though possibility not as heavy as I need: survivability is extremely important for the humans given their lower numbers, much like the Israelis with the Merkava) and an array of versatile firepower. I thought about hover capability to enhance mobility; with a main gun that is a rapid firing DEW with little to no recoil, this might not be a problem. I like the on-board mortar for its indirect fire capability.

The important thing that we need to know is how their weapons effect the target. Some DEW can be defeated by spacing or water vapor diffusion. We also need to know how common their antitank weapons are.

Also while the Merkava is an Internet favorite it is important to remember that it does things that a traditional tank doesn't need to do. No matter what the humans best bet is to change an individual soldiers weapons to antitank rifles or similar heavy infantry weapons and to hold areas where Cavalry mobility can't help, but foot mobility still commands. And like I said above, use fast firing heavy guns to cut through the superior numbers.

Otherwise the best real life tank might be the Argun. It can withstand point blank fire from a T-72 (a 125mm gun). That or the T-72 thanks to the t-72's large numbers.