Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Junghalli »

Jeremy wrote:I still don't understand how the air an object is transported into doesn't cause negative effects.
The density of air is pretty low; sea level air is only ~1.2-1.3 kg/m^3 (reference). Maybe the resulting impurity just isn't a big deal?

I don't know, what effect would having maybe a few hundred grams of air suddenly materialize throughout your body have? If that's seriously bad for you, then we know the transporter probably doesn't work that way, since people seem to use it with no problem.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by SCVN 2812 »

Regarding the NCC#s. Besides an extended production run, another reason why the Excelsior and Miranda NCC#s jump around so much might be related to the introduction of small craft into the registry system. The Danube Runabouts for example on DS9 all had their own individual registry numbers. If the decision was made some time after the first run of the Excelsiors (or even not long after Excelsior herself entered service) to reclassify larger than shuttles but smaller than true starship independent craft like the runabouts, that could theoretically add a large number of craft to the books.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Bounty »

Or they could just be roughly sequential but not consecutive to hide the real fleet size.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Batman »

Let's also not forget that not every registry necessarily has an actual physical SHIP attached to it. If real world practices are anything to go by registries being assigned to ships-or even entire flights of ships-that never made it off the drawing board is entirely possible.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Bilbo »

Question for everyone.

Lets say that Starfleet built a starbase in the void of space equal distance from our solar system and say Alpha Centauri. Once the starbase was in place they used it as a boneyard. Bascially park a starship there, pull it warpcore, and leave it permanently on just enough auxillary power to keep the entire ship at say 50 degree fahrenheit.

Would there be any sort of decay of the ships or would they litterally last forever?
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Temujin »

Well vacuum is a great preserver, and as long as the ships aren't subjected to constant extremes of heating and cooling cycles (as you can get near a star) and are protected from impactors you shouldn't have any real problem. I'm not really sure about this, but it might be worth shutting the whole thing down, draining out any fluids, volatiles, etc., and subjecting the interior to vacuum as well. It would take longer to restore of course, but for long term preservation I would think it would be better.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Jeremy »

A small force field might protect the hulks from odd debris collisions.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Temujin »

Yeah, I could see them sitting inside what is essentially a giant navigational deflector field designed to keep out everything from cosmic rays and other hard radiation to small meteoroids. Anything larger could be detected and then have the field strengthened locally, or have a tractor beam kick in. The whole yard could be centered around one or more starbase style structures (depending on how many ships you have) with small automated satellites on the periphery acting as both sensor platforms and boosters to help extend the field.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Big Phil »

Bilbo wrote:Question for everyone.

Lets say that Starfleet built a starbase in the void of space equal distance from our solar system and say Alpha Centauri. Once the starbase was in place they used it as a boneyard. Bascially park a starship there, pull it warpcore, and leave it permanently on just enough auxillary power to keep the entire ship at say 50 degree fahrenheit.

Would there be any sort of decay of the ships or would they litterally last forever?
You don't even need to do something that complicated.

Just park the ships out by Saturn or Uranus. Sure, they're getting hit by some solar radiation and other stuff, but being farther from the sun there are more things to soak up solar flares, radiation, etc. If you want to be extra careful, just park ships in a Lagrange point (ideally on the dark side, shielded from its star), and you should be in pretty good shape.

One other thing I recall from TNG technical manual is that a lot of starship hulls were supposed to be rated for 100+ year lifespans... I haven't read that book in 15 years, so my memory might be faulty. But if that's the case, I would assume the 100 year lifespan is for ships in active service; ships that are mothballed should be able to extend that lifespan.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Temujin »

Right you are. According to the TM the Galaxy Class design life is supposed to be:
Spaceframe design life of approximately one hundred years, assuming approximately five major shipwide system swapouts and upgrades at average intervals of twenty years.
While not canon, based on those design specs it wouldn't be unusual to see ships like Mirandas and Excelsiors still in operation eighty years later.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Wyrm »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:One other thing I recall from TNG technical manual is that a lot of starship hulls were supposed to be rated for 100+ year lifespans... I haven't read that book in 15 years, so my memory might be faulty. But if that's the case, I would assume the 100 year lifespan is for ships in active service; ships that are mothballed should be able to extend that lifespan.
Only the Galaxy class hull was stated to have such a long lifespan in that book. However, it should be noted that the TNGTM read like a technical manual for the Galaxy (and the Enterprise-D itself) exclusively, and as such, only the design specs of that class are relevant. You can't infer the lifespan of other classes through that one class's design lifetime specs.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Batman »

Actually it didn't read like a technical manual AT ALL because while the behind-the-scenes information was pretty cool, and at times hilariously funny, the actual TECHNICAL information was essentially useless thanks to a complete and utter lack of numbers other that a pretty pathetic figure for phaser firepower (1.05GW for a Mk 10 if memory serves).
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Temujin »

Wyrm wrote:Only the Galaxy class hull was stated to have such a long lifespan in that book. However, it should be noted that the TNGTM read like a technical manual for the Galaxy (and the Enterprise-D itself) exclusively, and as such, only the design specs of that class are relevant. You can't infer the lifespan of other classes through that one class's design lifetime specs.
Well considering some of Geordi's comments about the Jenolan having some more ruggedly / over built components compared to contemporary designs, if we assume the TM to be accurate, than it might be that TOS era ships actually were built to last longer than TNG era ships. The Jenolan was also only a transport, not a dedicated warship.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Lonestar »

Sorry for the late response, I've been out and about and shit.
Uraniun235 wrote:But most of the systems are supposed to be under the hull; Matt Jefferies explicitly suggested that the original Enterprise was meant to have as many systems within the hull as possible, so as to allow maintenance to be done without having to send crewmen outside the ship.
Yeah, and most systems in a CG are under a hull too(5 inch gun system, VLS, engines), but generally there are SOME differences externally after the vessel goes through major upgrades, even if it's adding new radomes/comsat stuff and taking off other stuff. It would have made more sense if we saw Excels that had different colored deflector dishes...some kind of visual indicator that major work had been done on them. That there is zero change externally doesn't bode well for the "well they just did a lot of INTERNAL upgrades!" hypothesis.

Also, unless the sensor suite is located well within the hull, crewmen ARE going to be outside doing routine maintenance, no matter what Matt Jefferies says.
(The other concept was that the nacelles were supposed to be basically plug-and-play; they could be relatively easily swapped out with replacements at a starbase if need be.) If the shield generators and antimatter reactor get swapped out, there's no reason to assume we'd see a noticeable external difference. Heck, look at Enterprise (TMP) and Enterprise-A (ST 5); we see two completely different shuttlebay arrangements within an identical outer hull. Same with the torpedo bay (ST 2, ST 6) and the bridge.
The -A was also re-christianed from a different ship that was undergoing a upgrade cycle. Who knows that the original interior of the Yorktown looked like to the -Nil?
Enterprise-D got several system upgrades through the course of TNG (including a whole replacement antimatter reactor, and better phasers) and yet we never see those changes manifest on the exterior.
My understanding is that the "upgrades" came about because of the damage it took during BOBW and the repairs at earth station McKinley, not because of a planned upgrade. I didn't know about the better phasers, but honestly that doesn't mean anything. That could be like a 5 inch gun getting a new barrel that has twice the shots before it has to be replaced.

Enterprise-B and Lakota may have been part of a subtype which proved to be not cost-effective and canceled in favor of further standard Excelsior-class ships. We see a lot of Excelsior-class ships throughout TNG and DS9, but there's only a short span of a few years between the prototype and the introduction of Enterprise-B; were so many really built so quickly before producing a handful of sideboob-Excelsiors and then shutting down the line? (in favor of Constellation, no less... bleh!)
Hmm...possible. I'm actually starting to favor the idea that an order of, say, 100 Excelsiors was made, the Khitomer Treaty was signed, and while personnel costs went way down it was decided somewhere to finished building the Excels, and stick them in a graveyard somewhere and demilitarized subject to weapons inspectors. So after the first group of Excels are retired at the 50 year mark an equal number is pulled out of the mothballed fleet in nearly "like new" condition.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by domokun »

Why old crapbuckets still in service during TNG-DS9-VOY era?

Two things, realities regarding to production budgets and laziness. When the next generation was made they still used models and optical effects quite lot, during DS9/Voyager production runs they switched to full only on later parts of those shows. Creating studio model for optical effects is painstaking, especially if ship is intented to be shown in close ups. Recycling same effects shots is still relatively common practice in sci-fi TV-shows, even when CGI of today is much less complicated and cheaper. Only horribly illogical ship appearance is D-7 appearing in Enterprise, that is something I could call plain laziness. Same applies to many interior sets of ships. New spaceship designs appear much more commonly in Voyager and DS9 when compared to TNG, that is very much related to fact how much easier and cheaper it became later on to make CGI.

Star Trek is also known for it's rather interesting retro-active canon that defies common sense and it's own "rules" in plenty of ways. TNG used so called new warp factor scale, 10 is supposed to be infinite velocity, still for some reason that is violated in last episode of TNG, of course it is possible that in alternate future they had changed scale once again. Rules of Trek "reality" changes from episode to episode. Another good example of this is replicator, gadget that executes e=mc^2 with some limitations. Even when some materials are impossible to replicate, they mine minerals, economies of scale would probably make mining just hydrogen for energy production and turning that energy into what ever is needed at least very attractive economically, of course efficiency of gadget could be bad. There is couple simple reasons why Treks pseudo science is quite much Swiss cheese, there is lot of that and there is lots of writers. Some other franchises are much more consistent due to only virtue of leaving stuff to hang in suspension of disbelief.

In world explanation of design being still either adequate as it is or useful with upgrades is also quite believable. Re-inventing wheel just doesn't make sense at all. Don't fix if it ain't broke. There is relatively good reason why many weapons are still very similar as their predecessors in many ways. Plenty of modern day small arms are essentially same as their world war-era counterparts, M1911 or M2HB are still very viable designs. Same applies most sniper rifles as those are basically Mausers with fancy stocks, better made barrels, different sight attachments and detachable magazines. Basic airframe of most modern US air-to-air missiles were originally designed in late fifties, AMRAAM is basically Sparrow with active homing and Sidewinder is practically only IR-AAM US have ever used. Actual capability of newest versions are very different when it comes to stuff like seeker sensitivity or range when compared to earliest ones, for example there is plenty of difference between range of mid-80's AMRAAM's and latest AIM-120C-7. It would be quite believable that same applies to spaceships design in Trek.

Besides Bird of Pray, D-7 and Excelsior are amongst best looking sci-fi spaceship designs ever.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

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domokun wrote:Only horribly illogical ship appearance is D-7 appearing in Enterprise, that is something I could call plain laziness.
The story as I remember it is that the effects team just ran out of time to create a new Klingon ship design and the producers weren't willing to delay the episode, so they dredged up a D-7 CGI model from a Voyager episode and tossed it in. Pretty sure the FX guy being interviewed said something along the lines of "I really wish now that we'd made a new one, but we just couldn't pull another all-nighter".
Another good example of this is replicator, gadget that executes e=mc^2 with some limitations. Even when some materials are impossible to replicate, they mine minerals, economies of scale would probably make mining just hydrogen for energy production and turning that energy into what ever is needed at least very attractive economically, of course efficiency of gadget could be bad.
Um, pretty sure the replicators re-arrange existing raw materials, not generate them straight from energy or transmute matter.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Picard »

Wyrm wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:One other thing I recall from TNG technical manual is that a lot of starship hulls were supposed to be rated for 100+ year lifespans... I haven't read that book in 15 years, so my memory might be faulty. But if that's the case, I would assume the 100 year lifespan is for ships in active service; ships that are mothballed should be able to extend that lifespan.
Only the Galaxy class hull was stated to have such a long lifespan in that book. However, it should be noted that the TNGTM read like a technical manual for the Galaxy (and the Enterprise-D itself) exclusively, and as such, only the design specs of that class are relevant. You can't infer the lifespan of other classes through that one class's design lifetime specs.
I'f I'm not wrong, Galaxy class starship is stated to be designed for 120 year lifespan, and there were some Excelsiors in service - and these were 100+ years old even by TNG, not to mention DS9, more than 5 years after TNG.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Picard »

domokun wrote:Why old crapbuckets still in service during TNG-DS9-VOY era? .
Probably beacouse:
TNG: They were waiting for new ships to reach sufficient numbers to retire old ones. And old ships can be extensively modernized in the meantime; plus ship production was on low level beacouse there was no major war for longer time.

DS9: Same as TNG plus Dominion War requiring as much ships as possible to be at frontline; many newer ships were too far away.

VOY: At beginning, DS9/TNG argument works wery well. At end of series (Endgame) we see much more new ships relative to number of Excelsiors than in other series.
domokun wrote:Two things, realities regarding to production budgets and laziness. When the next generation was made they still used models and optical effects quite lot, during DS9/Voyager production runs they switched to full only on later parts of those shows. Creating studio model for optical effects is painstaking, especially if ship is intented to be shown in close ups. Recycling same effects shots is still relatively common practice in sci-fi TV-shows, even when CGI of today is much less complicated and cheaper. Only horribly illogical ship appearance is D-7 appearing in Enterprise, that is something I could call plain laziness. Same applies to many interior sets of ships. New spaceship designs appear much more commonly in Voyager and DS9 when compared to TNG, that is very much related to fact how much easier and cheaper it became later on to make CGI.
True.

domokun wrote:Star Trek is also known for it's rather interesting retro-active canon that defies common sense and it's own "rules" in plenty of ways. TNG used so called new warp factor scale, 10 is supposed to be infinite velocity, still for some reason that is violated in last episode of TNG, of course it is possible that in alternate future they had changed scale once again. Rules of Trek "reality" changes from episode to episode. Another good example of this is replicator, gadget that executes e=mc^2 with some limitations. Even when some materials are impossible to replicate, they mine minerals, economies of scale would probably make mining just hydrogen for energy production and turning that energy into what ever is needed at least very attractive economically, of course efficiency of gadget could be bad. There is couple simple reasons why Treks pseudo science is quite much Swiss cheese, there is lot of that and there is lots of writers. Some other franchises are much more consistent due to only virtue of leaving stuff to hang in suspension of disbelief.
True.

domokun wrote:In world explanation of design being still either adequate as it is or useful with upgrades is also quite believable. Re-inventing wheel just doesn't make sense at all. Don't fix if it ain't broke. There is relatively good reason why many weapons are still very similar as their predecessors in many ways. Plenty of modern day small arms are essentially same as their world war-era counterparts, M1911 or M2HB are still very viable designs. Same applies most sniper rifles as those are basically Mausers with fancy stocks, better made barrels, different sight attachments and detachable magazines. Basic airframe of most modern US air-to-air missiles were originally designed in late fifties, AMRAAM is basically Sparrow with active homing and Sidewinder is practically only IR-AAM US have ever used. Actual capability of newest versions are very different when it comes to stuff like seeker sensitivity or range when compared to earliest ones, for example there is plenty of difference between range of mid-80's AMRAAM's and latest AIM-120C-7. It would be quite believable that same applies to spaceships design in Trek.
During TNG it mostly goes that way - basics stay same and only further perfection of already known weapons and technology is going on; only something really big can force invention of something really new.
domokun wrote:Besides Bird of Pray, D-7 and Excelsior are amongst best looking sci-fi spaceship designs ever.
I still like Sovereign more.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Wyrm »

Picard wrote:I'f I'm not wrong, Galaxy class starship is stated to be designed for 120 year lifespan, and there were some Excelsiors in service - and these were 100+ years old even by TNG, not to mention DS9, more than 5 years after TNG.
Were all Excelsiors built 100+ years ago, or are they still in production? Only if it's the former does what you say follow.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Picard »

No, Excelsior class is not in production for long time by time of TNG. I don't know when last ships of that class were built, but apparently it was before Ambassador class took over. However, we see ships with NCC-1000-and-some registry number still being around, and despite few mistakes, it seems that registry numbers are chronological and most of oldest ships are still in service during at least TNG (USS Excelsior had registry number NCC-2000, was built in 2280 and was active at least in 2370).
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

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Picard wrote:No, Excelsior class is not in production for long time by time of TNG. I don't know when last ships of that class were built, but apparently it was before Ambassador class took over. However, we see ships with NCC-1000-and-some registry number still being around, and despite few mistakes, it seems that registry numbers are chronological and most of oldest ships are still in service during at least TNG (USS Excelsior had registry number NCC-2000, was built in 2280 and was active at least in 2370).
There is zero evidence to support this. The highest registered Excelsior (NCC-62043 according to Memory Alpha) is well above the highest registered Ambassador-class (NCC-26517).

Your case could be correct, however based on the "numbers" which you try to go by, Excelsiors could just have easily been in production beyond even the Ambassador-class (something I feel is supported by the dearth of Ambassadors seen on screen during TNG and DS9). But in the end, there is no concrete evidence either way.
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Re: Starfleet Shipbuilding and old Crapbuckets in service...

Post by Picard »

True. I think that (given size of Federation and slow FTL drive) NCC numbers are chronological. However,Ambassadors are stated to have replaced Excelsiors as premiere frontline ships, which means that Excelsiors could have stayed in production long time after introduction of Ambassadors or even until TNG era to fill ranks - basically, you would have small number of high-performance ships (Ambassadors, later Galaxies) to respond to crisis, while peactime patrol duties and other lower-profile tasks would be performed by Excelsiors.
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