The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[CaptainChewbacca]

I am supremely confident they could find a good team of lawyers somewhere in the pit of hell.
Johnny Cochran comes to mind.

Keep in mind, EVERYONE is in Hell. I was about to flame you for being unkind to Cochran's memory, but in TSW, they're all down there, including my grandparents.

[Saint_007]

Uhm, putting Yahweh on trial is going to be problematic, to say the least. We have a giant, 30+ foot tall being with delusions of grandeur and invulnerability who can generate lightning storms, and that's the powers we know of. Does he possess the sonic scream? Does he have other hidden powers? With human dictators put on trial, we at least know that they're not going to tear through the prison bars or melt them. The Demons are, for the most part, well-behaved, since we tore their world apart and now they're learning there's a better way to live. In any case, we've only had a few Demons willing to fight humans once Satan was killed, examples including the late Beelzebub's lieutenant (who we last saw in a Russian prison in 'Don't Wake Me When I'm Quiet') and 'Grand Duke' Belial. At least the Demons being incarcerated are easy to contain; concrete walls, barbed wire, and materials strong enough to withstand demonic muscle and claws.

Speaking of incarceration, I'm wondering how the former guards of Belial's concentration camp are faring? The way the HEA can keep them under control will help in designing a cage big enough for Yahweh.

[Erra]

While the thought of a trial is amusing, I'm pretty sure Yahweh is going to be marked as too dangerous to let live.

And if we didn't do it, I'd expect assassination attempts from Michael.

[Saint_007]

You got a point there, Erra. Micheal's not going to allow Yahweh to live long enough to reach trial; he'd kill him in the coup d'etat first, just as the humans are storming through the rest of Yahweh's armies.

[Jeremy]

I am supremely confident they could find a good team of lawyers somewhere in the pit of hell.
Johnny Cochran comes to mind.

Keep in mind, EVERYONE is in Hell. I was about to flame you for being unkind to Cochran's memory, but in TSW, they're all down there, including my grandparents.

It was a double entendre, so you probably still have grounds to flame me.

[Saint_007]

We'll finally see if the Buchanan Brothers were right
http://www.atomicplatters.com/more.php?id=98_0_1_0_M

One thing with the whole "power of God" deal in this storyline, as has been pointed out time and again, is that it's as understood out of the Bible, not on the "Omnipotent, Omniscient Superpower Above All" that we usually refer to or think of.

For one simple reason. Otherwise, the humans would lose horrifically and there would be no story. Just an angry deity smashing the Earth with meteors and calling it a day. Like the thread that inspired this fic stated "what if God declared everyone was going to Hell". Thus the scenario that detractors keep mentioning ("Well, why isn't it about Hell invading and the Humans holding out until God changes His mind and helps them?") is not possible. Yahweh, under the original thread, is hostile. He's not coming to help, period.

If God is indeed omnipotent, and the Demons were indeed the Eldritch Abominations we made them out to be, it's a curbstomp. Humans get annihilated, Demons party, God moves on. End of Story. In a WH40K fic, this would be a good story. In Berserk (the manga/anime) it's probably how the world dies (yes, Berserk really is that awful). But I doubt anyone would want to read that kind of story (I know I wouldn't).

If God is omnipotent but the Demons aren't (sort of like how devils are portrayed in Islam: enemies and tempters of man rather than enemies of God), then the moment we beat Satan, God would just stomp us to dust with some nasty stuff; F5 Hurricanes, Richter 10 Earthquakes, meteor showers, etc... Like the above scenario, except we have a victory in between getting our asses kicked. Still not a pleasant or enjoyable story.

For humans to actually have a chance, God and Satan have to be as far away from being invincible plot devices as possible without being simple targets. Thus the descriptions in the Bible, and estimating how it would measure up against current human military capabilities. And it just so happened that the Demons and Angels are fighting on Bronze Age tactics and technology. The rest, they say, is history.

As for the "Why aren't the demons actually a match for the humans instead of being downplayed as being weak", that horse has been flogged to the ground. If someone has a better idea for how to portray the Demons, let them write a fanfic, then we can talk about it.

Sorry for the rant, just wanted to say something that's been on my chest for a while.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, Saint, there's an obvious question that arises from one of your comments:

"For humans to actually have a chance, God and Satan have to be as far away from being invincible plot devices as possible without being simple targets."

I think there are two fundamentally sound criticisms of the Salvation War story (and yes, there are quite a few things to admire too, but being likeable doesn't make it perfect).

One is the lack of coherent viewpoint characters, which was not a problem in Armageddon, started to become a problem in Pantheocide, when so many scenes were from the point of view of new characters we had never seen before and would never see again. This is now less of an issue because we're seeing more of the old established favorites during the invasion of Heaven.

The other is the problem of creating dramatic tension in a story where we knew broadly how the first two novels were going to end a quarter of the way into the first novel, with the catastrophic and relatively easy defeat of Abigor's army by modern weapons. At that point, we knew it might take time and resources, and that there would be casualties, but that the humans were going to win because they had the demons and angels utterly outgunned in every possible respect.

The reason that's a problem is because of the second half of you said, Saint: "...God and Satan have to be... without being simple targets." If the story was "God declares war on Man, Satan declares war on Man, Man kills Satan before lunch and polishes off God before teatime," it would be entirely anticlimactic. That's the "simple targets" extreme which, yes, we have to avoid to make the opposition in this story into credible nemeses.

And I think that the second valid criticism of the Salvation War series is that it strays too close to the "simple targets" extreme to be good for dramatic tension. Stuart may well have given the demons and angels the most powerful abilities he can imagine them having, and "despite all this power they're no match for modern technology" may be one of the key themes of the work, but stories about the villain being no match for the hero do get old after a while.

You can, of course, respond to this with "if you don't like it write your own damn story." However, this works equally well on any criticism of any work, whether the criticism is invalid or not, so... I'm a little skeptical of how good an argument it is.

[Saint_007]

I really need to start thinking before I start yapping...

Anyways...

The problem here is, Yahweh and Lucifer were planned out as being very powerful entities personally, but not as physical gods (meaning they're not planeshifted entities that can rearrange matter with a thought). The whole problem behind TSW is that we're dealing with crazy amounts of firepower on behalf of the humans. Thanks to Hollywood, few people actually grasp how utterly horrific modern weaponry is. That, and Command and Conquer; for crying out loud, how many times do I need to blast that rocket launcher soldier with the 120mm tank cannon before he keels over?! Then there's the classic "I kill tanks with my spear" issue from Civilization.

The "you write your own fic" argument may be childish, but my point is that TSW was written by Stuart according to his judgment of how effective human weaponry are vis-a-vis demonic/angelic forces, something he came onto his own with his own ways of measuring. Another writer might write a better story, one with a clearer-cut balance between the Angels, Demons and Humans. Thing is, TSW is what Stuart came up with, given a tricky issue: "How do angels/demons fare against 20th/21st century weaponry"? And that's not an easy question to answer. If it were (i.e. if we had an actual frame of reference), it wouldn't be an issue at all.

To be honest though, I like me some nice juicy curbstomps every once in a while. I mean, angst, heroics, and bravery are nice and all, but sometimes I'd like the heroes to say "the hell with this" and kick the sorry SOB's in the nuts so hard he'll be spitting out the family jewels.

[Erra]

Well, Saint, there's an obvious question that arises from one of your comments:

"For humans to actually have a chance, God and Satan have to be as far away from being invincible plot devices as possible without being simple targets."

I think there are two fundamentally sound criticisms of the Salvation War story (and yes, there are quite a few things to admire too, but being likeable doesn't make it perfect).

One is the lack of coherent viewpoint characters, which was not a problem in Armageddon, started to become a problem in Pantheocide, when so many scenes were from the point of view of new characters we had never seen before and would never see again. This is now less of an issue because we're seeing more of the old established favorites during the invasion of Heaven.

The other is the problem of creating dramatic tension in a story where we knew broadly how the first two novels were going to end a quarter of the way into the first novel, with the catastrophic and relatively easy defeat of Abigor's army by modern weapons. At that point, we knew it might take time and resources, and that there would be casualties, but that the humans were going to win because they had the demons and angels utterly outgunned in every possible respect.

The reason that's a problem is because of the second half of you said, Saint: "...God and Satan have to be... without being simple targets." If the story was "God declares war on Man, Satan declares war on Man, Man kills Satan before lunch and polishes off God before teatime," it would be entirely anticlimactic. That's the "simple targets" extreme which, yes, we have to avoid to make the opposition in this story into credible nemeses.

And I think that the second valid criticism of the Salvation War series is that it strays too close to the "simple targets" extreme to be good for dramatic tension. Stuart may well have given the demons and angels the most powerful abilities he can imagine them having, and "despite all this power they're no match for modern technology" may be one of the key themes of the work, but stories about the villain being no match for the hero do get old after a while.

You can, of course, respond to this with "if you don't like it write your own damn story." However, this works equally well on any criticism of any work, whether the criticism is invalid or not, so... I'm a little skeptical of how good an argument it is.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with this, however I've always felt like there was a good amount of dramatic tension in the story. Uriel was pretty dramatic, as was the search for how to actually get in to heaven. But beyond that, we have a side story in Pantheocide that brings the dramatic tension by the bucket loads, and that's the story of Michael and Lemuel. If it were just, "LOL WUT GODS? WE BLOW THEM UP GOOD," it'd be a pretty lame story, even with Stuart's awesome descriptions. As it is though, we have several layers on top of that story, including a genre-savvy angel who is fighting (presumably) for the fate of his entire species, in effect acting as a villain protagonist/hero antagonist.

As it is, I think that the second flaw you stated is a bit innacurate, at least in my opinion. (However I can agree with the first, though that has gotten better lately.) It may all have to do with the fact that we only get to read this story in segments, typically spaced out by a week or more. That's one of the reasons I'll be excited to get this when it comes out in book form, just to be able to read it cover to cover without all the waiting.

[Simon_Jester]

The second flaw is... I certainly think reasonable people can disagree on how much of it there is.

There are some who simply can't wrap their brains around the idea of non-omnipotent deities; they want to see the forces of Heaven and Hell be so much more powerful as to go all the way to the opposite end of the extreme, with no dramatic tension because of our inevitable defeat.

Others seem to want more aggressively physics-violating powers for angels and demons, ones that would make it challenging to defeat them even with the full range of modern armaments.

Personally, I think my ideal version of this story would tone the demons up slightly, but Armageddon? actually went pretty well. Among other things, there was still so much we didn't know about portals and demonic mind control and such; we had to learn the basics before we could even begin to face the threat, and that helped to take up the burden of dramatic tension that the demons themselves were not powerful enough to create alone.

What I think would have been nice would be if Heaven proved a significantly tougher nut to crack for reasons other than its inaccessibility. Say, if the Heavenly Host were smart enough not to march in huge blocks, or at least not to concentrate their angelic forces in huge blocks along with their human levies. Or if the terrain in Heaven were heavily forested (on account of extreme soil fertility?), making it a bit more practical for human forces to be ambushed at close distance rather than fighting on tanker's dream terrain.* Things like that, to the point where we're having to sweat a little more for our victory. As it stands, Heaven seems to be an easier fight than Hell was, in many ways, because the conditions are less hostile and the opposition is less tenacious about attacking into our guns.

*These are just random ideas that occur to me after five minutes' amateur military thought; I'm sure they could be picked apart, and that better ones could be used in their place.

[Commander Xillian]

So, the terrain would be sort of like Allied forces trying to push through Europe during WW2, having to deal with soft, supple fields that are just plain ol' hell on machines. Plus.. Idunno about you, but it would be interesting to see more infantry-centered combat. I'm quite glad of the recent chapter focusing on that bit.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The problem is, Heaven is described as idyllic hills and plains, with easy roads. Its pretty much terrible terrain to defend, which is probably why Lucifer managed to get all the way to the walls of the city.

[Simon_Jester]

Lucifer's troops were biological angels at the time; they could fly. Who needs favorable terrain when you can fly?

But yes, I understand the problem, though... where is it written that all of Heaven is open fields and rolling plains? No bocage country, no massive idyllic forests?

Also, I submit that while we look back at the way Stuart set it up and nod and say "yes, this is how it is," if Stuart had chosen to write some forests primeval or extensively cultivated and moderately built-up country into Heaven, we would have accepted it without a second thought.

[MysteriousDarkLordv3]

The area that the troops occupy is rolling fields. It's the area near the Eternal City.
Look at England - thousands of years of farming have turned areas that in historical times were primeval forests into rolling hills. Anything near the Eternal City is going to be open grassland and cultivated farms. You have to get inconveniently far from long-civilized territories for wilderness to re-assert itself. No doubt if you flew to the opposite side of the Heaven-planet, you'd be likely to find a primordial woodlands where the leaves are so thick that light couldn't penetrate.
Heaven knows what else one would find there ... or would they? (Cue dramatic music sting.)

[Captain Trek]

I have to agree that there is absolutely no dramatic tension regarding the outcome of the in-universe "Salvation War" itself, simply because there can be no dramatic tension in terms of "will the heroes win or won't they" if the outcome is already known. Rather, as with most stories about WWII, for instance, the story is not about creating a tense, overarching standoff between two warring factions (because the audience knows that the Allies will ultimately win WWII) as something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes (terrible as that show was) did, but rather about following the individual stories of people swept up in this series of honestly only very vaugely pre-determined events (that is, we know the good guys are going to win, but still manage to be surprised over-and-over again as the unexpected, like the nuking of the angelic army, happens)...

I mean, look how much discussion there has been regarding the details of Michael's planned takeover of Heaven, for example. Does that not suggest that there is tension there as people wonder and speculate with eagar anticipation about what's going to become of Michael and his plans? About what will become of Lemuel and Maion? About the personal outcomes of at least a dozen other characters? About Abigor and his attempts to restore the tarnished image of the deamons? About just who's pulling Memmon's strings? About how the angels are going to cope with the eventual human victory?

Honestly, I think this story has plenty of tension, you're just looking for it in the wrong place...

Things like that, to the point where we're having to sweat a little more for our victory. As it stands, Heaven seems to be an easier fight than Hell was, in many ways, because the conditions are less hostile and the opposition is less tenacious about attacking into our guns.

I wouldn't say the angels that actually made it to the 1st Demonic's trenches* fared any worse than those of Beelzebub's demons who made it to the tanks (remember the sarin gas?) or even earlier when a few demons made it to the dug-in Challangers in Iraq only for the Brits to pull back and the demons to have their flank crushed and swept away by squadrons of charging Russian tanks (remind me though, were they actually Russian or were they someone else?). It's just that this time, with NBC equipment being alot more free than it was in Hell, we're destroying the angelic host utterly before they can even attack.

And pray tell, how much could the angelic legions possible spread out before their supply lines, organisation or lines of communication broke down? If they spread out as much as you seem to be suggesting, by the time they reached the human lines they'd be spread so thin and there'd be so many stragglers that they'd either have to wait until they could get organised (being demolished by human artillery pieces in the process) or else attack in an unconcentrated rabble that would have no hope whatsoever of penetrating the human lines and would be incredibly susceptible to the onset of a mass rout...

*Note also that Stuart describes the burnt out wrecks of APCs during the attack on 1st Demonic and that one guy described having to "pull First Demonic's nuts of out the fire", suggesting that the angels and their levies were indeed making progress before they had their flank crushed.

[Edward Yee]

The charge was by Iranian T-72 tanks, ordered at the behest of General Zolfaghari, who'd ceded operational control on that flank to Brigadier Carlson til inveighed to "put every gun to them sir, every gun."

EDIT: The Iranian army also initiated the rocket barrage that cracked the flank (from the side and from the rear, according to the "character POV" demon) to clear the way for the charge.

[Captain Trek]

The charge was by Iranian T-72 tanks, ordered at the behest of General Zolfaghari, who'd ceded operational control on that flank to Brigadier Carlson til inveighed to "put every gun to them sir, every gun."

Thankyou... I knew they were Russian tanks, I just wasn't sure who was driving them...

[Simon_Jester]

I have to agree that there is absolutely no dramatic tension regarding the outcome of the in-universe "Salvation War" itself, simply because there can be no dramatic tension in terms of "will the heroes win or won't they" if the outcome is already known. Rather, as with most stories about WWII, for instance, the story is not about creating a tense, overarching standoff between two warring factions (because the audience knows that the Allies will ultimately win WWII) as something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes (terrible as that show was) did, but rather about following the individual stories of people swept up in this series of honestly only very vaugely pre-determined events (that is, we know the good guys are going to win, but still manage to be surprised over-and-over again as the unexpected, like the nuking of the angelic army, happens)...

I understand that, but consider. Most war stories (not all, not even all good ones) pit roughly matched opponents against each other, at least on the local level. When Americans fight Germans in WWII, you know who's going to win, but both sides still have rifles and artillery.

In some parts of Salvation War, this is preserved. Drippy's scene is excellent for this, because Drippy actually ends up in close combat with angels, and they nearly overrun his lines. But so much of the action is on the strategic level that making the enemy no match for the heroes on the strategic level creates a problem. Every time we see General Petraeus, we seem him (in effect) shaking his head at how stupid those poor dumb demons/angels are, because they always make mistakes that get them easily slaughtered. There's no tension in those scenes, and yet those scenes make up a large fraction of the total action.

Things like that, to the point where we're having to sweat a little more for our victory. As it stands, Heaven seems to be an easier fight than Hell was, in many ways, because the conditions are less hostile and the opposition is less tenacious about attacking into our guns.

I wouldn't say the angels that actually made it to the 1st Demonic's trenches* fared any worse than those of Beelzebub's demons who made it to the tanks (remember the sarin gas?) or even earlier when a few demons made it to the dug-in Challangers in Iraq only for the Brits to pull back and the demons to have their flank crushed and swept away by squadrons of charging Russian tanks (remind me though, were they actually Russian or were they someone else?). It's just that this time, with NBC equipment being alot more free than it was in Hell, we're destroying the angelic host utterly before they can even attack.

The demons were more aggressive; they were less casualty-averse. Bolder, more fanatical angels (and yes, I can see why they wouldn't be more fanatical, the way Stuart set them up) would have caused more damage than an equivalent force of demons, by virtue of being individually more dangerous to armored vehicles (angelic trumpeting seems to hit harder than demonic lightning) and faster-moving.

The point here, as I see it, is that Stuart could, had he chosen to do so, have made the forces of Heaven a relatively greater challenge for human-equipped forces than those of Hell were. This would help to compensate for the less hostile physical environment (we can use aircraft and the troops can breathe more freely) and political environment (we can use nukes more freely). And I think this would be interesting. To some extent he has tried to do so; the 1st Demonic got hammered quite badly, if not as badly as the 10th Mountain did at Hit. We may see more of this in subsequent sections.

And pray tell, how much could the angelic legions possible spread out before their supply lines, organisation or lines of communication broke down? If they spread out as much as you seem to be suggesting, by the time they reached the human lines they'd be spread so thin and there'd be so many stragglers that they'd either have to wait until they could get organised (being demolished by human artillery pieces in the process) or else attack in an unconcentrated rabble that would have no hope whatsoever of penetrating the human lines and would be incredibly susceptible to the onset of a mass rout...

You're entirely missing the point. That was a casually imagined example of a way in which the angels might prove a greater threat. I do not claim to be a military genius. I'm sure Stuart could come up with a better answer; hell, I could come up with a better answer than the one I tossed out there.

When dealing with fictitious creatures, it is not difficult to find ways to make them more dangerous.

[Saint_007]

Heh. That actually reminds me of an earlier post of mine, back when Micheal was trying to find a way to accomplish the Fourth Bowl. I said that the Angels would try and use their aerial superiority and use extensive Pearl Harbor style attacks.

Except Stuart kinda put the kibosh on that. Angels are not as martial as the Demons, thus had no reason to improve their tactics/strategy beyond "Forward to Glory!". Their biggest problems were the lack of extensive military activity for centuries (thus no real reason to work on their combat skills) aside from petty skirmishes and raids against Demonic outposts, and the very stagnant system initiated by Yah-Yah which stifles free thinking. The Demons were similarly limited by the fact that a very powerful jackass was ruling everything and didn't allow for the slightest deviation; otherwise, given 500,000 years, I'm sure people like Belial would have figured out an easier (read: much more efficient) way to wage war. And like Capt. Kirk said, spreading out your army might avoid getting annihilated by artillery or even nuclear strikes, but with Bronze Age weaponry and training, it just means your men are too far apart to do much damage to any single spot or to support each other on the field.

As for the Petraeus scenes, AKA "Dem stupid Angels/Demons are gunna get stomped, dur hur hur", well, I think Stuart had to show war on his scale: the strategic scale. Though I agree; had the Angels ways to create thunderstorms, hurricanes, etc... beyond simply opening portals (meaning if they could do tactical/strategic strikes on HEA troops in Heaven), then they'd be a serious threat. The question becomes how will the Human forces respond (probably by reducing vast tracts of Heaven and the Eternal City to radioactive dust).

[Edward Yee]

What I saw with GEN Petraeus' scenes wasn't him being condescending about the demons/angels, just him taking care of business and being sober... it's just that we resorted to nukes so damned quickly WRT Heaven.

If I recall, had Stuart really cared about not going with dramatic tension, humanity would have gone nuclear right from the get-go... and had there not been air support available to support ground forces, that's exactly what would have been happened.

[Highlord Laan]

After reading the past few chapters, I have a whole new respect for the power and horror or nuclear weapons. May they never see use on our world again.

i do have a question about them though. Well, their aftereffects, anyway. Can a creature, say a human, get so saturated with radiation from nuclear fallout that they actually become radiologically activates and survive? And if so, can they actually "spread" radiation poisoning amongst fellow survivors until he or she finally succumbs and dies?

Nukes are scary enough, but Athena's Tits, the aftereffects are worse.

[CaptainChewbacca]

i do have a question about them though. Well, their aftereffects, anyway. Can a creature, say a human, get so saturated with radiation from nuclear fallout that they actually become radiologically activates and survive? And if so, can they actually "spread" radiation poisoning amongst fellow survivors until he or she finally succumbs and dies?

Not entirely sure what you're asking, but if you're wondering about the possibility of a normal human becoming IMMUNE to radioactivity as a result of being exposed to fallout, the answer is 'not outside of comic books'.

[Nematocyst]

That crater lake is radioactive, right? For how long? And won't it be dangerous to move our infantry near it without NBC protection (as I've been reading)?

Also, I agree on the newfound respect for atomic weapons. History Channel simply doesn't convey how dangerous they are

[SilverHawk]

The lake will stay radioactive for however long it takes the material to naturally lose radiation (the crater that supports the lake) minus how much time and effort humans spend scrubbing it. Given enough money and material, anything can be cleaned of 99% of it's emitting or present radiation. (Assuming nothing new is added.)

The lake itself is highly toxic and irradiated (Chemically and Radiologically), but it's "safe" in the manner of for as long as you don't touch it, it can't hurt you. So no protection would be needed. (Ignoring the irradiated ground you're standing on.)

[Captain Trek]

Not entirely sure what you're asking, but if you're wondering about the possibility of a normal human becoming IMMUNE to radioactivity as a result of being exposed to fallout, the answer is 'not outside of comic books'.

I don't think he means that so much as he means, "Can someone who's absorbed alot of radiation themselves become radioactive (and thus dangerous to others) without dying first?"

I myself have no clue, so it might be worth someone answering that question...