What Are Your Religious Beliefs?

[Rye]

Even my imaginary conscious self-value is greater than that of a rock, which has none. They universe may not care if I exist, but I do.

So what?

[Modax]

It wasn't a dodge; it was an example to show the folly of human life being of the maximal value. I'd probably kill a frog based on this limited information.

Congratulatons, I hereby nominate you a honorary humanist. Simple question; why do you think you would choose the human in this situation? Could it possibly be related to the human having a more complex mind, level of self-awareness, and imaginary conscious self-value? If not, what justifies your choice?

Nothing has innate value

Conscious organisms similar to humans do. They value their lives, unconditionally in most cases. Taking their existence as a given, their value is innate because it cannot be seperated from them without destroying them. I.E you cannot make 'me' not value 'me' without destroying 'me'.

things have value dependent on personal aesthetics, desires and assumptions.

As I think you'll agree, none of these things have any reality outside of the context of human experience. All things of any value are contingent upon conscious beings, similar but not necessarily related to humans, being there to value them. A universe without minds is devoid of value.

So you're saying you can't justify not only keeping an animal alive while human lives die. It's not a "black/white" fallacy, it's just showing that your supposedly humanist ethics value a non-human above undoubtedly millions of humans in practise.

Mailing my pet cat to Malawi isn't going to save a single human being. Her upkeep is less than a dollar a day, so even if you take UNICEF adds at face value, the opportunity cost of her upkeep is only a fraction of that of a human. And she is not devoid of value herself, as she has a mind, if only a simple one.

It's still absurd, though. There's no "reason" to hold such values, be prudent, stay alive or care about anything, just chemical commands we are bound to obey and are similarly pointless to ignore.

Agreed, the universe is absurd. So what?

[Rye]

Congratulatons, I hereby nominate you a honorary humanist. Simple question; why do you think you would choose the human in this situation? Could it possibly be related to the human having a more complex mind, level of self-awareness, and imaginary conscious self-value? If not, what justifies your choice?

None of those things. I would do it out of habit and sympathy for those it would hurt emotionally. Hindus may well choose a cow over a human for the same reason.

Conscious organisms similar to humans do. They value their lives, unconditionally in most cases. Taking their existence, their value is innate because it cannot be seperated from them without destroying them. I.E you cannot make 'me' not value 'me' without destroying 'me'.

Value is still contingent and consequential there, not innate.

Oh, and people unable to value their own continued existence are notoriously common throughout history.

As I think you'll agree, none of these things have any reality outside of the context of human experience. All things of any value are contingent upon conscious beings, similar but not necessarily related to humans, being there to value them. A universe without minds is devoid of value.

So how are they innate if they're constructs of reactive minds?

Do you really think that the opportunity cost of the pets of the world being alive is equal to millions of humans? And as for my own pet cat, mailing her to Malawi isn't going to save a single human being.

I don't know about that. It could probably keep a starving child alive for a day or two.

Agreed, the universe is absurd. So what?

So there are no "innate" values.

[Modax]

Okay, fine. I hope you get something out of your nihilistic philosophy. We'll just have to disagree.

[Rye]

Okay, fine. I hope you get something out of your nihilistic philosophy. We'll just have to disagree.

You shouldn't act like this is just a difference of opinion. I'm honest enough to pursue the truth, even when it leads to difficult and inconvenient conclusions.

[Broomstick]

While I can't speak for Alyrium, for me personally groups like that and other less harmful religious belief systems (Buddists, Pagans, etc.) are tolerable because by their nature they tend to be either innocuous or actually capable of doing some good, even if in a minor way.

That's often because they're small minorities and very marginalized - where various flavors of Pagan have dominated in the past things could get quite irrational and oppressive, and as for Buddhism, just check out the unabridged history of Tibet with warring monasteries.

Any time any religion becomes dominate in society I get nervous.

[FSTargetDrone]

Baptized Catholic, sent to 12 years of Catholic school (because they were better schools than the local public ones) and gradually became "Atheist" in high school. Even in those schools, religion only ever came up in religion class and during school masses, but it was more rote teaching than anything deep or preachy, odd as that sounds. Also vegan, which is as close to a "philosophy" as I care to be part of.

I've said it before here and I'll say it again: I'm lucky that I live in a part of the US and among a circle of family/friends/acquaintances in which religion never comes up beyond innocuous talk about how nice the service was when I attend a funeral or wedding. If someone around here actually came up to me and started talking about religion, I'd look at that person as if he or she had a hole in the middle of his or her forehead.

In daily life, I don't discuss religion with anyone, ever, beyond this board. I've never talked about non-beliefs with family members. The only outward sign of my lack of participation during a mass is that I never take Communion. I will kneel, sit and stand at the appropriate time, but that's only to be polite. Most of my family happen to be "holiday Catholics." Some of them are certainly religious, but no one makes a stink about it.

[nightwyrm]

No Jedi option?

Well, I'll be an atheist biologist then. Or a godless commie evolutionist as we're called by fundies.