Forerunners Vs. the Galactic Empire

[Invader Taz]

The Forerunners, after three hundred years of war with the Flood decide to jump the entire Maginot Sphere into a different universe.

They arrive the Star Wars galaxy one month before the start of ANH (in some previously empty sector, if none a thousand light years across are available, their above the galactic plane).

Due to their other-universe-y-ness they are distinctly lacking in Force presence (think the YV that can still be affected by Force lighting etc).

The Ark and the Halos are left behind, but there is nothing to stop them building more.

Note: Due to three hundred years of hopeless war, these are the Forerunners after they learned not to take things at face value like when the Flood first attacked and appeared to be nothing more than something to ROFL at. This also means their no longer as interested in their 'Mantle' at this time but are instead interested in reasserting themselves as the dominate galactic power.

How well do the Forerunners do? Can the Empire hold it’s own against them? Do the Emperor and Vader end up being stuck in a tiny room somehow, somewhere in a Halo?

[adam_grif]

Has there been any quantification of the Forerunners at all? Obviously if Halos can wipe out all life in a significant portion of the galaxy that's quite significant, but do they have the ships to stand up to the Imperials? How fast are Forerunner slipspace drives? Human drives are ~4 ly/day and Covenant drives are 912 ly/day, but aside from ramblings of "faster than covenant", do we have any actual numbers?

[Vendetta]

No, we know almost nothing about the Forerunners apart from the fact that it was their catastrophic stupidity that allowed the Flood to overrun the galaxy in the first place.

[Srelex]

Well, in fairness, the Empire isn't exactly a paragon of intelligence either, but yes, we know too little about Forerunner capabilities for this to be a meaningful question. Do we even know how many planets they controllled?

[adam_grif]

Well, in fairness, the Empire isn't exactly a paragon of intelligence either, but yes, we know too little about Forerunner capabilities for this to be a meaningful question. Do we even know how many planets they controllled?

No, but their empire easily could have spanned the entire galaxy. Their slipdrives are at least as good as the covenant's @ 912 ly/ day, probably much higher. Their industrial capability was such that they built at least one completely automated, planet sized factory which spits out ringworlds on command.

If they didn't have a galactic sized empire, it would be because they didn't want one (i.e. they were all content with what they had, perhaps some sort of prime directive type thing) or because they had competition. That said, there were no peer-races mentioned anywhere in the cannon, although I'm just going by the halo wiki (because I don't read trash like that).

[Jake]

Can the forerunners beat the empire? If we assume that they are technologically greater than or even equal to the covenant (which seems obvious) I believe that in a purely naval war, they could. Here's why:

A typical human warship MAC gun fires a 600 ton projectile at .4X the speed of light. The energy delivered by this weapon can be found by using the relativistic kinetic energy formula KE= mc^2/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) - mc^2. Using c=3X10^8 m/s, m= 600 ton=609628.2 kg, and v=.4c=1.2X10^8 m/s, the energy released by the weapon is about 5*10^21J of energy. A typical covenant ship's shields can take three hits from an MAC before overloading, or the equivalent of 1.5*10^22J of energy.

Now, taking the most quantifiable covenant ship, the ascendant justice, lets compare it to an imperial star destroyer. The Ascendant Justice has a weapons set consisting of plasma torpedo launchers, an energy projector, and pulse laser turrets. In Halo, First Strike, its shields were resistant to four plasma torpedoes. Assuming the three MAC to take out a shield rule, one plasma torpedo puts out 3.75*10^21 J of energy. Energy projectors can deplete the shields of a covenant destroyer in one hit, so this weapon puts out the equivalent of 3 MACs or 1.5*10^22J of energy. I haven't found any quantification of pulse lasers, except that they are light, point defense weapons. We should also note that the Justice's hull was resilient to two more plasma torpedoes, which implies that the warship can take at least 2.25*10^22J of energy before destruction. (NOTE: I obtained all covenant and UNSC starship info from Halopedia).

Now, according to Darth Wong's website (this one), using his estimates, an ISD's shield has an energy capacity of 9*10^20J. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ield2.html) An ISD broadside can put out more than 6*10^19J of energy. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam2.html

With this information, it can be seen that one plasma torpedo would take out an ISD's shields and have 2.85*10^21J of energy to spare. In Halo, First Strike, the Justice has enough energy to fire two torpedoes and one shot from the energy projector at once. As for shielding, the Justice's shields can withstand 250 star destroyer broadsides before failure, and the ship can take at least 375 ISD broadsides before destruction. So, for a fleet of ISDs to have a chance against a fleet of Ascendant justices, they would have to outnumber the covenant 375 to 1. Granted, the ascendant justice was a flagship and most likely more powerful than average, but at least this gives a ballpark estimate, and since the OP is about the forerunners, who's technology level made the covenant see them as GODS, it seems this is a decent estimate.

Back to the forerunners, assuming the 375 to 1 average, I don't see how the empire could win in a straight up fight. The empire has 25000 ISDs and millions of support ships (from this site). At the battle of the manginot sphere between Offensive and medicant bias, it is stated that MB, who controls 4,802,019 outnumbers OB 436.6 to 1. (Halo 3 6th terminal). This means OB and his forerunner fleet numbered 10,999 ships. I don't know what percentage of the forerunner navy this is, but even if this is it, the ISD's only outnumber them 2.273 to 1. Realize that this battle also occurred right before the firing of the halo rings (it was meant to buy time for them), when the forerunners were probably at their weakest.

In conclusion, all though we know very little about the forerunners themselves, applying the basic and very conservative assumption that forerunners ships were equivalent to a covenant capital ship demonstrates that the empire would have an extremely difficult time standing up to them in a naval engagement, if they could win at all.

[Invader Taz]

Has there been any quantification of the Forerunners at all? Obviously if Halos can wipe out all life in a significant portion of the galaxy that's quite significant, but do they have the ships to stand up to the Imperials?

The most common Forerunner ship we have seen is their 14 kilometer long Dreadnoughts and they still had 11,000 of them left at to defend the Sphere with at the end of the war. On a note of firepower in Ghost of Onyx thousands of Onyx Sentinels were able to combine fire and completely vaporize unshielded Covenant Destroyers which would require several Teratons given they can take at least a single Plasma Torpedo strike to the hull and keep fighting.

How fast are Forerunner slipspace drives? Human drives are ~4 ly/day and Covenant drives are 912 ly/day, but aside from ramblings of "faster than covenant", do we have any actual numbers?

Given Alpha Halo could not be more than a couple hundred light years from Reach at most Delta Halo would be around 25,000 light years away which took only 5 days for the Keyship to cross.

[Night_stalker]

True, but that Keyship had been on High Charity for millenia, and as such without proper repairs, but given that the Engineers were maintaining it, and were Forerunner constructs themselves...

Honestly, a Keyship's weapons are unknown to us. We have NO idea of how they were used, besides for seeing life accross the galaxy, following the Halo array's activation. For all we know, they could've used warp cannons ripped from Blackstone Fortresses!

But I digress, and besides the only known Forerunner warships are now ash, thanks to the UNSC!

In short, we have no idea about Forerunner weaponry, shipwise or groundwise. Hard to make a proper matchup given teh lack of info.

[Invader Taz]

True, but that Keyship had been on High Charity for millenia, and as such without proper repairs, but given that the Engineers were maintaining it, and were Forerunner constructs themselves...

True, but even with the Engineers they only ever got the Keyship reactor to 10% max power, and that was enough to power all of High Charity (which is going to be fuck off massive given that the 30 km diameter station in Frist Strike had a shield powerful enough to repel the impact of a small moon). And IIRC in Contact Harvest the fragment of MB in the Keyship almost destroyed all 348 kilometers of High Charity when trying to take off using the sub-light engines.

Honestly, a Keyship's weapons are unknown to us. We have NO idea of how they were used, besides for seeing life accross the galaxy, following the Halo array's activation. For all we know, they could've used warp cannons ripped from Blackstone Fortresses!

Not true as of the Halo Legends episode Origins when a Dreadnought battlegroup (the real type of Dreadnoughts seen in Halo Wars) destroyed Flood controlled ships above one of their city worlds. They combine fire with a massive ship at the center of their formation to create a large plasma beam that cut right through the Flood ships.

In short, we have no idea about Forerunner weaponry, shipwise or groundwise. Hard to make a proper matchup given teh lack of info.

We have as of Origins seen Forerunner hand weapons in action. Even without Origins what we have seen in the games and Ghost of Onyx would be enough to go off of.

[Night_stalker]

Yes, but the Forerunner ship's weapons were used against other Forerunner ships, whose durability isn't really comparable to anything.

[Invader Taz]

Yes, but the Forerunner ship's weapons were used against other Forerunner ships, whose durability isn't really comparable to anything.

True, but we still have Ghost of Onyx when thousands of Onyx Sentinels completely vaporize unshielded Covenant Destroyers which would require several Teratons since they can take a single plasma torp to the hull and keep fighting.

Edit

The Forerunner do have another weapon system that could one shot anything up to Super Star Destroyer size as seen in another one of the Halo 3 Terminals: Uncontrolled Slipspace Ruptures. Local laws of physics breaks downs and destroys anything that gets to close.

@Srelex

One of the Halo 3 Terminals states that the Flood had overrun over a million worlds towards the end of the war. That is the only hard number we have on number of worlds.

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, but the Forerunner ship's weapons were used against other Forerunner ships, whose durability isn't really comparable to anything.

True, but we still have Ghost of Onyx when thousands of Onyx Sentinels completely vaporize unshielded Covenant Destroyers which would require several Teratons since they can take a single plasma torp to the hull and keep fighting.

@Srelex

One of the Halo 3 Terminals states that the Flood had overrun over a million worlds towards the end of the war. That is the only hard number we have on number of worlds.

Spewing numbers don't make it so. And Jake's calcs are honestly a wee bit off in a number of regards that were done better in other threads and in books that came out after Mike's very old calculations.

Immense jumps of logic does not make a debate.

[Invader Taz]

Spewing numbers don't make it so.

Which numbers? The Teratons? It comes from the Halo Encyclopedia which gives a standard UNSC MAC gun a velocity of 40% the speed of light which is 1.17 Teratons as I recall the calcs I saw before (Which are not the ones from Halopedia). A Covenant Destroyer once shields have been taken down have been able to take at least a single Plasma Torpedo to the hull without being taken out of the fight. So safe to say it would take several Teratons to fully vaporize one as done in Ghost of Onyx.

Or do you mean the number of Onyx Sentinels required? Here is the first thing I came across in GoO looking for it:

Page 282 to 283 Halo: Ghosts of Onyx

“Energy spikes,” Uruo siad. “Northern polar region.”
The alien ships fired, hundreds of beams bounced with their - Next Page -

linked geometry, combining and focused though their energy
Shields--directed into the center of the warping Slipspace.
The Absolution vanished from high orbit--
--reappeared in the center of the aliens’ field of fire.
The hull of the destroyer superheated to white--flashed vapor-
ized, flowering into a ball of ultraviolet fire.

Seems I was off as you can see in the part I put in bold.

And if you mean the number of worlds the Flood manage to overrun you’ll have to give me a few minutes here to find the excerpt from the Halo 3 Terminals on Halopedia.

And Jake's calcs are honestly a wee bit off in a number of regards that were done better in other threads and in books that came out after Mike's very old calculations.

Agreed. It won't be that easy, but scaling from what the Onyx drones did the the GE is in for a fight once Forerunner industry gets rolling.

Immense jumps of logic does not make a debate.

What leaps of logic? I have simply state canon fact.

[Ghost Rider]

What leaps of logic?

Okay, because I'm bored and ignorance not as blissful as they contend.

1. MAC gun is 1.17 TT but you cannot demonstrate this other then assuming a rather large amount of variables. And this is assuming said person will present how said calculation was reached and then of course assumes 100%. So it's not safe to assume.

2. Hundreds of beams or a lot of thunder and nothing of substance. Since we are using a singular event as the basis without actually presenting why this makes it so.

3. Then finally assuming that there is a objective view of how the Forerunner's scale to this.

So yes...there are some rather large leaps of logic that no one has presented proof beyond personal supposition.

[Jake]

Ghost Rider or Invader Taz: What parts of my calculations are off? Also, if there is more current data, where can I find it?

[Norade]

Ghost Rider or Invader Taz: What parts of my calculations are off? Also, if there is more current data, where can I find it?

The bits where you used a non-cannon book for your numbers.

[Invader Taz]

What leaps of logic?

Okay, because I'm bored and ignorance not as blissful as they contend.

1. MAC gun is 1.17 TT but you cannot demonstrate this other then assuming a rather large amount of variables. And this is assuming said person will present how said calculation was reached and then of course assumes 100%. So it's not safe to assume.

Everyone else agreed it was accurate. But let me see If I can find one of the KE calculators I've come across before - ah, here we go. Its late so I'm just using one of the easy ones (note you need to add about 10% to the number given because this calculator does not take into account relativity): http://www.1728.com/energy.htm

We want to use the Energy option for this which gives us just over 1 Teraton of KE for a 600 Metic Ton object at 120,000 kilometers per second.

2. Hundreds of beams or a lot of thunder and nothing of substance. Since we are using a singular event as the basis without actually presenting why this makes it so.

There are two more quotes:

Page 232 of GoO

“I’m reading two thousand four hundred twenty-three of
these objects in orbit,” Linda said. “That’s overkill for a COM
network. Wait, they’re breaking orbit."

Total number of Onyx Sentinals in orbit when the Spartans arrived on their captured Covenant Destroyer the Bloodied Spirit.

Later Will brings the shields up to full strength and after that we have this from Fred “If those aren’t nukes,” Fred told them, “there’s no way some-thing that small can penetrate Covenant shields.”

“Back us off, Will,” he ordered.
“Something’s happening,” Linda said.
The image in the viewer zoomed in on a cluster of the space-craft. Seven of them moved into a line.
The view pulled back and revealed other identical formations.
Seven of these lines stacked into an elongated triangle, and the
Spheres within the forty-nine-craft pattern glowed red-hot.
“Hard to port!” Fred cried. “Emergency power to shields.”

Page 233 of GoO

The deck tilted.
“Answering hard to port,” Will cried.
A blast of golden light overwhelmed the image in the viewer.
The frame of Bloodied Sprite resounded like it had been
Struck with a hammer. The artificial gravity failed and Fred
gripped the railing.
“Starboard side hit,” Will said. “Shields destroyed.”
Fred moved his hand over his console and Bloodied Sprite ap-
peared on the viewer. A gaping crater of blue hull armor smol-
dered white-hot. Crystalline electronics crackled, and severed
plasma lines spewed fire. As the ship turned, Fred saw the hole
was five decks across and had punched clean through to the port
Side.

Page 278 of GoO

A thousand tiny craft crested over the planet’s northern mag-
netic pole and moved toward the Far Sight Lost on attack vec-
tors.

Page 279 of GoO

The thousands of the tiny craft drifted in the central holo-
graphic display like a cloud of dust. They formed octahedral
geometries, solidifying into crystals of gold and ruby in the dark
of space, surrounding the Far Sight Lost.
“Incoming transmission,”Y’gar siad. Both his eyes, sighted and
blind, were wide with wonder. “On the Prophets channel, sir.”
A flat voice, intoning perfectly the ancient dialect, rumbled
over the bridge: “Rescue phase concluded. Threat-analysis phase
concluded. Reclaimant request for Shield World access… de-
nied. Initiating outer defense program.”
“Energy spikes detected,” Y’gar siad. “Frequencies shifting to
resonate suites.” He looked up. “They’re combining fire, sir.”
“Fleetwide channel,” Voro shouted. “All Ship Masters make
ready to fire. Link targeting control through the Incorruptible.”
Uruo monitored his console as the ships in their fleet linked
into a single spiderweb network of firepower. “Fleet fire control
is now yours, sir,” he told Voro.

Page 280 of GoO

"Target laser and energy projectors on thse cluster forma-
tions," Voro.
Uruo smoothed his hands over the network, double-checking
the numbers, and then said, "Target solutions calculated, sir. On
your order."
A thousand tiny eyes blazed within the alien formations. En-
ergy beams collimated into lances of golden light that painted
the hull of the Far Sight Lost.
The ship did not have its shields up. Beams sliced through ar-
mor and decks, piercing through and through, blasting cones of
vaporized alloy into space.
Voro quenched his rage and studied the carnage. Some ad-
vantage had to be gleaned from this tragedy.
Individually the tiny craft could do no harm. Together, how-
ever, they were more than a match for the Far Sight Lost. Their
octahedral structures shimmered with energy shields. Voro as-
sumed their defensive strength multiplied when combined as well.
"Release weapons interlink safety locks," Voro ordered, and
raised his hand.
He prayed for the soul of Ship Master Qunu, who had re-
vealed for them a new enemy.
Penetrated by a dozen beams, the ventral decks of the Far
Sight Lost exploded. The weapons cut through the aft section. The
plasma core breached, and three plumes of blue fire erupted
from the hull--heating the aft quarter of the vessel red-, yellow-,
and then white-hot--beforethe vessel detonated.

3. Then finally assuming that there is a objective view of how the Forerunner's scale to this.

It is really just a simple matter to scale from the reactor. Say assume that the entire OVS is a generator (Edit: 3 Metal booms each three meters long with a central sphere a quarter in diameter) and a Dreadnought uses a tenth of its volume for power generation. Its late so I'll leave that calc up to someone else.

@Norade: What are you talking about non-canon book? If you mean the Halo Enc. it is canon.

[Norade]

Could you please post the Halo cannon policy for us?

[Invader Taz]

Could you please post the Halo cannon policy for us?

Here you go: http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive28.pl?read=847640

: Halo 'canon' can quite easily be viewed in a similar way as the kind of canon
: system in place with Star Wars.
: A certain hierarchy of priority.
: In other words, different levels of canon where the higher levels will
: override the lower ones whenever there is a contradiction.

Everything that Bungie has ever approved is canonical. But even then, certain things trump others. In order of canonical influence:

- The games rank first
- Published materials (books, comics, soundtrack liner notes etc.) rank second
- Marketing and PR materials third

And there's one codicil: the more recent items trump the older ones. So, for example, if some aspect of Halo 3's fiction contradicted Halo 2's, Halo 3's would be the gold standard.

Bungie doesn't like to retcon (i.e., deliberately change previously established facts), but sometimes it's necessary. Take for example the issue of the number of human worlds. The truth about the "800+" number? That was made up by a non-Bungie employee and never approved by us before the Halo: CE promotional website went live.

As for some of the other issues raised, chiefly Jenkins' age and UNSC foot-dragging on fielding the BR55? I will only say that some marines have spent a very long time in cryo-sleep and that putting an entirely new weapon into service during a war -- especially a war that spans multiple star systems -- is no small order

.
For thus debate at least we will use the Halo Enc. for yields for the Covenant to scale from.

On a side note Frank O'Conner has stated that the visuals in Halo Legend are unreliable because of concessions they had to make the medium. I can't find the quote right now though.

[Norade]

I don't see how they could possibly be limited by the medium of CGI in showing what they want, but hey their retarded cannon policy.

[Ghost Rider]

...Scale up from reactor?

Again, another leap of logic given we have little to no hard proof of a Forerunner vessel that isn't over a few thousand years old.

And then we assume all the rest of industry, military, and size.

Yeah, no problems here.

[Solauren]

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to the Death Star's firepower?

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stand up to sustained high-gigaton, low Terraton bombardment over a 24 hour or longer period? (aka a Base Delta Zero)

Do the Forerunners have anything that can stop a Force Storm?

Do they Forerunners have anything that can crack a planetary shield?

No?

Then they lose, and they lose HARD.

They have no knowledge of the Death Star's design flaws, so they can't 'exhaust port' it. The Empire will be able to pick the Forerunners apart quite easily.

Imperial ships are probably faster (Star Wars hyperdrive is around 10,000 light years per hour, maybe higher). Which means the Imperial fleet can hunt them down easily.

The Forerunners have minimum support infrastructure, the Empire has a Heavily Industrialized galaxy. (Planetary Factories are actually somewhat common in the Empire.)

And most importantly; the Empire has no problems with wiping out entire species, planets, or even sectors to make a point.


It could get messy for the Empire, but the Forerunners would get their asses stomped six-ways from their holy day, and Palpatine's scientist has some new technology to play with.

[Jake]

Norade: According to the canon site invader Taz put up, the books are canon, albeit lower than the games. Is there anything in the games that contradicts my numbers? I don't think so considering I have played all of them quite a bit.

Invader Taz: If you want numbers from the halo encyclopedia only, is there somewhere online I can find them? It costs $30 and I don't really want to spend that.

[Night_stalker]

Solauren: the Forerunners made 7 massive installiations, plus a set of shield worlds, plus a
massive extragalactic installation capable of making spare Halos, all while under attack from the Flood! That implies one mother of a big empire in terms of resources and power!

[Vendetta]

And most importantly; the Empire has no problems with wiping out entire species, planets, or even sectors to make a point.

The Forerunners wiped out all advanced life in the galaxy, including themselves, as a quarantine procedure.