Top 5 technologies to use against the Empire

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-19 11:04pm

Might I point out that none of this has anything to do with the original thread question, which asked which Treknologies would be most useful? You can't just say things like "kick its industry into high gear" or "improve the durability of their ships" or "upgrade their firepower" and call that an existing Treknology.

Slipstream doesn't solve the problem because a Fed ship will tear itself apart after using it for too long. Regular transwarp is too slow, while transwarp conduits are vulnerable to attack and nonexistent in enemy territory, which is where you would need them in order to have any chance of posing a credible counter-strike threat. Even with Borg assistance (ie- 7 of 9), they could not reinforce a Fed ship's structure enough to withstand extreme-velocity travel.

As for superweapons, they are only useful if you can deliver them to the target without getting killed, and the Feds do not have a workable delivery system even if we give them slipstream. Moreover, the notion of them destroying "thousands" of star systems with superweapons is rather absurd; it assumes that their ships will not be destroyed en route.

Ultimately, even if you give the Feds slipstream, Genesis Device, and trilithium torpedoes, they're still hopelessly fucked. That's why you have to invent new items that aren't on the menu, like "make their ships more powerful" etc.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-19 11:25pm

Still, Imagine if they could blow up the star of Coruscant, the demoralizing effect would be staggering.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-19 11:36pm

But the practical effect would be much smaller. The Empire had no problem functioning from Byss after losing Coruscant, and Coruscant is a symbolic target. If anything, the act of destroying Coruscant (leaving aside the not-so-minor problem that it would take years to reach it) would only unify the SW galaxy in anger and hatred against the Federation.

MAD is simply not an option when the disparity is this large. The Empire could literally put an ISD in orbit over every world and simply demand the surrender of all starships and equipment, and there's not a damned thing the Federation could do. Could anyone seriously think that they could try and threaten the Empire with the possibility of losing a miniscule fraction of their star systems someday while the Empire stands above them with the dagger ready to annihilate their entire civilization down to the last man, woman, and child at a moment's notice?

Any Fed/Empire war which does not result in a Fed surrender is unreasonably generous to Star Trek.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-02-20 12:53am

Darth Wong wrote: Slipstream doesn't solve the problem because a Fed ship will tear itself apart after using it for too long.

While not certain, the existance of the Dauntless suggests that a Federation ship could be designed to take advantage of quantum slipstream without being blown to bits. Yes, I know it wasn't a Federation ship. However, it does indicate that long-range slipstream travel is possible with technology not clearly superior to the Federation's.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-20 12:58am

Darth Wong wrote:Ultimately, even if you give the Feds slipstream, Genesis Device, and trilithium torpedoes, they're still hopelessly fucked. That's why you have to invent new items that aren't on the menu, like "make their ships more powerful" etc.

Naturally. They conclusion is so pathetic and far-gone no one bothered to actually argue the original point and we actually threw Alyeska a bone here because it really doesn't make a difference.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-20 01:06am

lets say they can convert 1000 of their ships to slip stream. Lets say the average capicity of each ship is 100 torps, lets say that 500 can deliver all their torpedos to stars. That is still 500 thousand stars. Even if only 250 deliver a full load thats 250 thousand star systems gone. That would severley cripple the empire. That's a pretty silly way of looking at but i'm too tired to do more complex estimates and so if you want them you can do them yourselve.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-20 01:12am

Minor weaponry can kill them. They don't know where they're going. They have no support, no fuel, no intel. This mission is a failure before it leaves the drawing board.

Eaglewood · Post by **Eaglewood** » 2003-02-20 01:19am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Minor weaponry can kill them. They don't know where they're going. They have no support, no fuel, no intel. This mission is a failure before it leaves the drawing board.

What about phasing cloak? IIRC, Phasing cloak "shifts" ships somewhat out of sync with our dimension. I'm not sure if turbolaser bolts and concussion missiles will pass through a Phasing Cloaked ship, or score hits due to sheer energy?

I'm just throwing out a bone here.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-20 01:22am

At least one of my arguments for today made a little sense. Lets see that makes
Darthdavid-.05
Everyone Else-99999999999[EDIT]999999999999.95

[Don't post huge long strings like that; it forces the browser to go wide. Please read the fucking Announcements forum- DW]

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-20 01:25am

darthdavid wrote:At least one of my arguments for today made a little sense. Lets see that makes
Darthdavid-.05
Everyone Else-*snip*

I predict your post will get shafted by the nearest mod.

How much of a range does that solition wave thing have?

Oh, and what exactly is the Omega particle and what does it do and would it be useful in this situation?

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-20 01:28am

Properley used (almost impossible) provides near infinite power
Improberley used Makes a big boom and destroys subspace for a large area making warp impossible in that area.

Eaglewood · Post by **Eaglewood** » 2003-02-20 01:31am

Shinova wrote:
darthdavid wrote:At least one of my arguments for today made a little sense. Lets see that makes
Darthdavid-.05
Everyone Else-*snip*

I predict your post will get shafted by the nearest mod.

How much of a range does that solition wave thing have?

Oh, and what exactly is the Omega particle and what does it do and would it be useful in this situation?

Interesting idea, Shinova.

However, the Omega particle would do the Federation and civilization more harm than it's worth.

Federation wouldn't be able to warp in the region after the Omega Bomb or Omega Nuke, or whatever it'd be called. Subspace would be ruined, and we all know how dependent Star Trek tech is on Subspace.

I'm not sure what effects Subspace has on planets, stars, and whatnot. Also, I'm sure Star Wars uses a different dimension than SubSpace.

I'm not a technical jargon kind of person who knows every in and out of both universe technologies.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-20 01:49am

Eaglewood wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Minor weaponry can kill them. They don't know where they're going. They have no support, no fuel, no intel. This mission is a failure before it leaves the drawing board.
What about phasing cloak? IIRC, Phasing cloak "shifts" ships somewhat out of sync with our dimension. I'm not sure if turbolaser bolts and concussion missiles will pass through a Phasing Cloaked ship, or score hits due to sheer energy?

I'm just throwing out a bone here.

Phase-cloaked people can still breathe air, see, and interact with gravity. It shouldn't be a problem.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-20 01:55am

Still, if they did this in secret and no interdiction feilds were up...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-20 02:19am

So what? Say they manage to kill an unsuspecting ship that way; what do you think the Empire will do to a planet which responded to a surrender ultimatum in that fashion? The next ship certainly won't come in with its guard down, and the planet will probably be reduced to a barren wasteland.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-20 02:35am

The feddies have the ultimate weapon on their side, plot devices. They're the humans from earth so of course they'll win, that's just how movies work. Even if it defies all logic

.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-02-20 05:38am

Top 5 techs to use against Imperials

1°) Minds
2°) Gridfire
3°) EM Effectors
4°) Hyperespace strafe
5°) Displacers

Oh sh*t, wrong universe

Best tech would perhaps be artificial wormholes generators ( one DS9 eps has fed scientists working on a practical generator, but again this tech has been lost ).

Provided the artificial worhmoles are as fast as the Bajoran one, Feddie speed will be perhaps a full order of magnitude greater than Imperial one.
Provided they can open/close/destroy the wormholes' mouth at will and restrict the access, this would provide a safe heaven for ships ( as they can stop into the wormhole ). Wormhole-strafe might even be available. And a Feddie version of the bonehead manoeuver as well ( only on big and relatively immobile ships or targets ).

And the Cytherian Probe beam. Boosting Starfleet Command's IQ with a few thousands extra points might be cool - if not vital.

Oddity · Post by **Oddity** » 2003-02-20 11:01am

Darth Wong wrote:Slipstream doesn't solve the problem because a Fed ship will tear itself apart after using it for too long. Regular transwarp is too slow, while transwarp conduits are vulnerable to attack and nonexistent in enemy territory, which is where you would need them in order to have any chance of posing a credible counter-strike threat. Even with Borg assistance (ie- 7 of 9), they could not reinforce a Fed ship's structure enough to withstand extreme-velocity travel.

Yes, but transwarp is still better than ordinary warp. And I was thinking on the coil-type transwarp that dosn't need hubs, so the conduits shouldn't be vulnerable.

Oddity · Post by **Oddity** » 2003-02-20 11:03am

Shinova wrote:
Crazy Ivan wrote:4) Subspace Warheads (Ka-boom!).
You talking about that subspace weapon from Insurrection?.

Almost. The warheads I'm thinking on are from a Voyager episode. They don't form any subspace tear, just a mighty big explosion. With warp sustainers on those, you could fire them while at warp, slow down a bit, and when the warheads have detonated arrive at your destination to find a lot of wreckage.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-20 11:30am

Where do all these rabid trekkies get the idea that the pahse cloak must make the ship leave the physical universe somehow? Just because it has the word "phase" in its name?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-20 11:32am

Crazy Ivan wrote:Yes, but transwarp is still better than ordinary warp. And I was thinking on the coil-type transwarp that dosn't need hubs, so the conduits shouldn't be vulnerable.

But useless against the empire since the borg have no conduits in Imperial space.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-20 07:53pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Ultimately, even if you give the Feds slipstream, Genesis Device, and trilithium torpedoes, they're still hopelessly fucked. That's why you have to invent new items that aren't on the menu, like "make their ships more powerful" etc.
Naturally. They conclusion is so pathetic and far-gone no one bothered to actually argue the original point and we actually threw Alyeska a bone here because it really doesn't make a difference.

Oh gee thanks.

I still think my idea is the best. Using the threat of weapons of mass destruction, the UFP can have an uneasy Cold War type peace with the Empire. Sure, the UFP couldn't win a war, but the price of taking down the UFP would not be worth the cost to the Empire.

That means Slipstream drives and Trilithium torpedoes are the best by for the Federation. With these weapons war can be prevented, or atleast stalled for a significant period of time. With 12,000+ possible ships to use to move Trillithium weapons the Empire would loose possibly 12,000+ systems just to take down 150 core worlds and another few hundred colonies. Its just not worth it to the Empire to waste that much in resources just to take down a handful of systems.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-22 11:29pm

Alyeska wrote:I still think my idea is the best. Using the threat of weapons of mass destruction, the UFP can have an uneasy Cold War type peace with the Empire. Sure, the UFP couldn't win a war, but the price of taking down the UFP would not be worth the cost to the Empire.

You're assuming that every single ship hits every single target in a timely fashion with zero casualties despite no method of achieving that goal, because their ships can't even hold together under the strain of slipstream travel. I don't see how that kind of Hail Mary strategy can be remotely comparable to a simple surrender in terms of viability.

That means Slipstream drives and Trilithium torpedoes are the best by for the Federation. With these weapons war can be prevented, or atleast stalled for a significant period of time. With 12,000+ possible ships to use to move Trillithium weapons the Empire would loose possibly 12,000+ systems just to take down 150 core worlds and another few hundred colonies. Its just not worth it to the Empire to waste that much in resources just to take down a handful of systems.

More like 2 or 3 systems for the Empire at most, and that's assuming the ships don't get blown away in transit as they crawl along at whatever speed they can manage without being torn apart.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-22 11:38pm

Alyeska, you idea would be best served by throwing phase cloaks into there too, so that the ships would be difficult to detect, making them more like real life boomers.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-22 11:45pm

Ender wrote:Alyeska, you idea would be best served by throwing phase cloaks into there too, so that the ships would be difficult to detect, making them more like real life boomers.

The huge spatial distortions produced by transwarp (see "Scorpion") would be detectable regardless of any phase cloak. The phase cloak would only come in handy for sublight travel, and only where your opponent lacks any kind of gravitic or even passive IR detection capability.

Need I point out that a phase-cloaked ship is still interactive with light, and that phase-cloaked people are still interactive with gravity? And that the only time phase-cloaking ever fooled an actual sensor system (as opposed to the naked eye) was in "Pegasus", inside an irradiated asteroid belt where sensors were seriously impeded?

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Top 5 technologies to use against the Empire

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