Horus Heresy: The Saint, the GeOM, & other stuff (spoilers)

[Connor MacLeod]

First off a warning. I am not going to use spoiler tags so if anyone is reading this who wants to be surprised by the HH novels, don't read. Any of you who have read my 40K analysis pages should realize I don't do this even if I should. You've been warned.

Anyhow, I figure since most people here have read the HH novels by now and I'm well behind on them (since there's umpteen other ones I have to read and cover, not to mention the misc texts) but there are some interesting aspects even early on.

The first I want to touch on is is Euphrati Keelor. What's interesting about a Remembrancer? Well, for one thing she demonstrates "miraculous" power manifesting from faith in the Emperor... and yet the Emperor isn't even aware of this. I've got some of my own ideas, but I'm actually curious to see what other people thought of it first, since It's a fairly non-minor plot point.

Secondly, the whole "divinity" angle vs "The Imperial Truth". Plus, a little Mechaicus stuff. Basically what I've been thinking about in the HH novels (coupled with some of my more recent Chaos oriented analysis) is that is religion neccesarily the ONLY avenue through which a Warp entity (god or whatever) might draw power? We know the Immaterium is influenced by the thoughts and emotions and beliefs of any living thing, especially those with a strong connection to it. Given that, would the Imperial Truth have any sort of tangible influence on the Immaterium, and if so what would it do? (besides the obivous hiding the facts of the true nature of the Warp, that is.)

By extension, with the whole belief and emotion thing influencing the Immaterium, might the "Omnissiah" actually have some sort or presence in the Warp? Crazy as it may sound, but I would find it likely that the thoughts and emotions (which do exist to a degree) of the AdMech might actually manifest to some degree in the Warp.

[Dark Hellion]

On the Omnissiah, there probably is some kind of warp juju that is being sent out by AdMech worship, but I am not sure if it would have an independent manifestation as opposed to being siphoned into other sources. Given the C'tan's long war with the warp and technology like the Cadian pylon-thingies it is probably reasonable to assume that the Dragon filters some of this warp power out, either simply preventing it from getting to the Immaterium or subverting it in some way for its on purposes. Also, given the language that warp creatures devour others and take their strength it is probably reasonable to assume that the God portion of the Emperor chowed down on the nascent Omnissiah bits and gets some of the juju for himself. Other chunks probably go to the various Chaos Gods, Tzeentch getting any desires to improve or evolve a design (which might explain why some of the stagnation is so ingrained) and Khorne getting the whole this thing kill-alizes people chunk.

[Sinewmire]

1. Euphrati Keeler - I think she's a psyker. A strong one. Perhaps she has been posessed by some sort of positive energy demon, perhaps she is tapping into the Emperor's psychic might.

2. I don't think worship actually matters to Warp Deities, ie, the Chaos Gods as their power is directly derived from emotions, not prayers. Religion is just a method of directing those emotions to good purpose, which is why the Chaos gods favour the Black Legion and Night Lords just as much as the Word Bearers. The religion just feeds their egos.

I imagine the effect of the Imperial Truth on this would be either to suppress the chaos gods, or to feed Tzeench, who does have hope as a minor aspect.

I don't think the "Omnissiah" has a presence in the warp, no, as he seems to be confused of a mix of The Emperor and The Void Dragon. Some tech priests may be mildly psychic, however, which may account for miracles on behalf of the Machine-God.

[Lupercal]

1. Euphrati Keeler - I think she's a psyker. A strong one. Perhaps she has been posessed by some sort of positive energy demon, perhaps she is tapping into the Emperor's psychic might.

I didn´t think Euphrati was truly a psyker, but she really, really had faith in the Emperor and a miracle happened, just like with Miriya and that other sororitas in Faith and Fire.

I suppose they would have ways to detect if she truly was a nascent psyker.

[Sinewmire]

I didn´t think Euphrati was truly a psyker, but she really, really had faith in the Emperor and a miracle happened, just like with Miriya and that other sororitas in Faith and Fire.

Just because it can be explained doesn't stop it beng a miracle. There's millions of people in the Imperium who really really have faith in the Emperor - why couldn't they create miracles?

I think it's latent psychic... er... ness, being brought to the fore by extreme stress.

Whilst they do indeed have spedific machines and personnel to detect nascent psykers, plenty slip through the nets to become Wyrds and Rogue Psykers, or simply don't manifest any talent until unblocked, perhaps.

Either that or there's a Good version of Daemons that posess people. The Living Saints certainly sound like that.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Either that or there's a Good version of Daemons that posess people. The Living Saints certainly sound like that.

There are; they're just rare and don't really appear directly the way daemons do. It's important to remember what a daemon actually is -- it doesn't just literally refer to a hellish creature of evil. In 40k terms a daemon is more technically defined as a "critical mass" of sufficiently powerful, related emotional imprints on the Warp. Enough people think "I hate that guy so much I'm going to murder him!!" and soon enough all that bloody hate will hit a point where it takes on form as a Bloodletter.

So with that in mind there's no reason there can't be daemons of sunshine and lollipops. They're just very rare and probably get gobbled up by the Warp as often as not -- remember that the Warp is supposed to be "neutral" and an emotional "mirror" of the real world, but has long since been muddied and corrupted into a nightmarish state by the Eldar and humanity.

On to Keeler. I do not think she is a psyker, not in the traditional sense anyway. Psykers get gobbled up and their 'eads pop, especially during the Heresy where there isn't soul-binding, the Inquisition, and other safety valves in place to keep psykers from blowing up. Any psykers, especially powerful ones, would be driven insane without the support structure of the 41st millenium's Imperium.

Keeler's powers are probably more similar to a Navigator's; that is, obviously related to psychics and the Warp, but not directly tapping into it as a true psyker does. The closest analogs are the Adepta Sororitas and, of course, the saints of the 41st millenium. Codex: Witchhunters and the various Dark Heresy materials describe the phenomenon as "True Faith", and in both cases this provides direct benefit against and outright nullification of nearby psychic and daemonic effects.

It is possible that it is similar in part to the Orks' resistance to psychics and daemons. Not so much the mindset, but rather the way Orks have blind trust in Gork and Mork -- the possibility that "spiky weird fings wot tries to eat da ladz" might be anything other than just another mundane beastie to fight doesn't even occur to them, such is their communal belief in Gork (or Mork).

Blind faith humans have in the Emperor would be less effective in most cases because they don't have the additional protection that the Orky mindset and philosophy does, as well as lingering doubts, no matter how small, that the Emperor will be there to personally save the day from nightmarish horrors. Most humans simply don't have that level of iron will and complete faith in the Emperor, which is why Grey Knights and Sororitas are demonstrably more protected from hostile Warp influences than Joe Hiveworker.

The Thorians theorize that living saints are in fact avatars of the Emperor's divine power, which may be further explanation for Keeler. The Emperor was a hugely powerful psychic entity in the 31st millenium and it may be entirely possible that he was more powerful than he was even aware of (which would further explain why even in a half-dead state 10,000 years later, he is in some ways more powerful than he was before). A fraction of the Emperor's power, perhaps some subconscious nagging about the looming threat of Chaos, may have slipped into a receptive vessel -- namely Keeler. Of course, this is assuming the in-universe theories of the Thorian faction are true.

[Lupercal]

I didn´t think Euphrati was truly a psyker, but she really, really had faith in the Emperor and a miracle happened, just like with Miriya and that other sororitas in Faith and Fire.

Just because it can be explained doesn't stop it beng a miracle. There's millions of people in the Imperium who really really have faith in the Emperor - why couldn't they create miracles?

I see what you say. They should happen more often than they do.

[Zinegata]

Late response...

I'm not sure if you've read the novel Titanicus but there are indications that the Omnissiah is in fact a seperate entity from the Emperor. Since Imperial tradition states that the Emperor and the Omnissiah are both the same entity, this was used in the book to try and start a small civil war.

Also, given the AdMech's focus on technology, it's highly unlikely that this real Omnissiah is a warp entity, but is probably some sort of actual physical entity.

This is an admin-approved necro. ~D

[Connor MacLeod]

Thanks for not closing this. I was hoping there'd be more feedback on the topic though. Oh well.

The thing about the whole "tech vs religion" angle, is that technology does not excludeor eliminate ideas. alot of the Imperium's technology is human oriented or has organic elements (at least some cogitators, virtually all servitors, etc.) or ties into organic bits or the warp in some way (EG MIUs, the creation of consciousnesses that form the machine spirits of titans and such, etc.) We know thoughts and emotions of the psychically attuned affect the warp and its denizens (creating them, sustaining them, etc.) and that it can cover a gamut of positive and negative things. So why would logic, science, or such similar things be "immune" to influencing the Warp? Terms like "religion" or "belief" or ideas like "gods and daemons" are just terms applied to the nature of certain extra dimensional entities but they don't in and of themselves define or limit that dimension or its inhabitants. The existence of psychically attuned races (esp when psychic and warp-oriented technology exists among both Imperium and Eldar as well as other races) and the warp will invariably change how science and technology are viewed or approached.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Late response...

I'm not sure if you've read the novel Titanicus but there are indications that the Omnissiah is in fact a seperate entity from the Emperor. Since Imperial tradition states that the Emperor and the Omnissiah are both the same entity, this was used in the book to try and start a small civil war.

Also, given the AdMech's focus on technology, it's highly unlikely that this real Omnissiah is a warp entity, but is probably some sort of actual physical entity.

This is an admin-approved necro. ~D

Mechanicum sort of answers this contraversy: The Emperor is indeed the Omnissiah, but he is not the avatar of the Machine God, which the Admech believes the Omnissiah to be. I don't want to spoil too much about the novel, but it describes (in that limited way that GW reveals new canon) how the Emperor set events into motion thousands of years earlier so that he could take the role of the Omnissiah, as well as whom or what He set up to be the Machine God and why.

[Zinegata]

I think the main reason why logic, science, etc do no exist as a Warp Entity is because, to quote Justicar Alaric, "I wish for a world where your kind cannot exist".

So if logic/science does indeed have an effect on the Warp, it's probably the sort of effect that makes the Warp weaker.

Also, Titanicus implies that the use of organic components was done after the whole Dark Age of Technology thing. Titans are said to be more efficient without a human operator (Praetors), but they added Praetors anyway after "some events in dark ages past". And the text strongly implies the human operator is there mainly to keep the Titan's raging machine spirit in check.

So the defining element of AdMech technology seems to be that it must always be guided and controlled by a human intellect.