SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, I'm using a sort of a Zerg swarm, but that's only because alot of my stuff is automated or otherwise involves a very small crew relative to the ship's size. I don't expect to have any particular advantage other than maybe some kind of strategic maneuverability from that, though. I figure it just falls under the "don't be a dick" rule.

[Simon_Jester]

If people are going for Zerg swarm, then they should expect people to counter zerg swarms with missile spam.

Or, in my case, beam spam.

Look, anyone can write their heavy ships slaughtering a massive swarm of light ships; it's easy. The problem is not the fluff, it's the gameplay. Do we want to make it possible for a 600-point fleet of light units to overwhelm a 400-point single ship? The answer is probably "yes," because 600 points of light units should net you a comparable boost to naval strength as 600 points of heavy units.

But do we want to make it possible to send 600 points of light units to fight a 400-point ship, knowing they'll win with heavy casualties, then replace the lost light units much faster than the enemy can replace the battleship? That, we do not want.

I think that's what they mean. If it were up to me, I would allow such tactics from time to time, as long as the player using them not only needs to rebuild the ships, but actually recruit and train pilots for what essentially are suicide missions. That should be played as a hefty rebuild time penalty, not to mention a chance of social uprising.

As for AI or Hive-mind civs, throwing away so many drones would be like cutting your own arm off. You can build a new sword, but without the much more complex to re-create arm to hold it, it is useless.

...Well.

There's a fine line between Zerg-swarm tactics and wolfpack tactics. Countering one extremely strong unit with a host of weaker units is hardly an unusual practice- the obvious example being torpedo boat attacks on capital ships during the World War era, or for that matter torpedo bomber attacks. Or, hell, the use of pike phalanxes against heavy cavalry in ancient warfare; one heavy cavalryman cost several times more than an infantryman, and was normally worth several infantry, except when those infantry formed a solid block to repel his charge.

Much depends on the consequences of, say, throwing 500$ of light units at 400$ of heavy units: do you invariably lose 80% of your light units in that attack, only to have the last few survivors somehow triumph? Would the same happen if instead of sending 25 20$ frigates, you'd sent 5 100$ cruisers? Or 2 250$ battleships? What if I'd used twice as many units? Will one 400$ battleship always account for 400$ worth of frigates, no matter how badly outnumbered it is?

I should be allowed to send a single 600$ battleship to engage a 400$ battleship, with reasonable confidence of success. I fail to see why I* should not be allowed to send a 600$ frigate swarm to do the same. From a gameplay standpoint, that only becomes a problem if I exploit the short frigate construction time to replace the lost frigates much faster than the enemy can replace the battleship, then repeat the process until they no longer have a fleet.

The solution shouldn't be to punish me heavily for "using small craft against large," because that's very much a flavor issue and I should be able to play a swarmist civilization if I want. It should be to punish me for trying to rebuild too fast, since that's the potential rules exploit that needs to be averted here.

I have an idea for how to fix this in a hypothetical rule-heavy setting, but I don't recommend it for this game because people hate that kind of thing here. My response would be: Spoiler

...to create 'pipelines' of construction: my nation builds X frigates a year, has done so for several years, and will continue to do so for several more. While the time it takes for each wave of frigates to come off the assembly line is short compared to the time it takes to complete a battleship, I can't just commission a hundred new frigates at will and have them on my doorstep within six months.

Instead, I would have to place those new frigates in the pipeline, and see them delivered slowly, as yard space expands or construction efforts accelerate, over a period of a couple of years. Which, not coincidentally, is how long it would take my enemy to replace the battleships those hundred frigates took with them.

*Given my actual naval plans I wouldn't normally do this; I'm speaking in the general sense.

[PeZook]

I hope people don't feel like I'm hogging the prologue thread, but I'm just posting stuff I wrote up already

[Siege]

I've modified my fleet by 'scrapping' a class of 30 intermediary 250p warships. I just don't think I'll be using heavy warships all that much, so it's in my mind much more useful to have a fleet of smaller, more versatile ships and a few heavy-hitters to break out when the shit hits the fan.

[Oskuro]

The solution shouldn't be to punish me heavily for "using small craft against large," because that's very much a flavor issue and I should be able to play a swarmist civilization if I want. It should be to punish me for trying to rebuild too fast, since that's the potential rules exploit that needs to be averted here.

That's exactly what I meant. If we see this from a pure game mechanics perspective, the rule can be abused. If we see it as an actual civilization where citizens might not be too keen on commanders that rely on throwing away the lives of soldiers en masse, it's a different issue. Would you try to become a fighter pilot if you knew your army will use you as a cheap self-guided missile?

But, then again, this is the same as the mods inflicting penalties on anyone building too fast, I think that what needs to be cleared up is that abusing certain gameplay styles will be punished, not necessarily what the punishment will be, or what the "rules" defining the abuse are.

I hope people don't feel like I'm hogging the prologue thread, but I'm just posting stuff I wrote up already

I won't mind as long as you tell me where that robot pic is from

[Steve]

Ships past $1,000 will get my scrutiny. So far the only "vessels" of that size are the Collector Monoliths, 'Zook has been authorized for such.

Also, I'll frown upon people attempting zerg rushes with overwhelmingly-light ships.

Just to bring this to your attention then. The Chamarran Juggernaut is 2500 points, but they only have one of them and cannot build more.

I knew about that one, and it was a special case, so no worries.

[PeZook]

Ah, well played, Siege, well played

We can continue this when the game starts, no?

[Simon_Jester]

The WAAAGH! Team. Brilliant. I love it. Great job, Oskuro.

[Siege]

Ah, well played, Siege, well played

Why thank you .

We can continue this when the game starts, no?

I daresay we can indeed.

[Oskuro]

The WAAAGH! Team. Brilliant. I love it. Great job, Oskuro.

Thanks, I had that idea bouncing in my head for quite a while now, I really need to get my hands on an Ork Kommando squad box and mod the miniatures.

And, heck, it has been a long time since I last wrote a narrative of this type, I feel really rusty

[Magister Militum]

Due to events beyond my control, I have to drop out of SDNW. My summer break will be much more busy due to several final-year univsersity projects, and I'm afraid I will not be able to provide anywhere near the level of time needed to properly play this game, or be online in general. I know that a few players have built their histories around French activities, so if you wish to use France as an obscure NPC to avoid any rewrites that's fine by me. Again, I profusely apologize for this sudden change of plans.

[Steve]

Does anyone have a history so advanced and set-up that they must have Magister's state? From what I know Baerne has a fairly involved history with him and I've set up some old interactions.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hmm.. a note to all, I decided to move the Imperium-Tau war to the 28th Century into the 29th, rather than the 27th.

Because I don't think a century long war will cut it.

[DarthShady]

Karlack meat as a Delicacy? Mang I'm gonna have to get your guys eaten on a matter of principle.

[Master_Baerne]

I don't need France, but it'd be nice to have around. Whichever's easiest, I suppose...

[Steve]

I don't need France, but it'd be nice to have around. Whichever's easiest, I suppose...

I'm considering leaving it as an NPC and, if Magister has time later, he can join after we've started.

[Force Lord]

I'm currently reorganizing my Navy since I've realized that too much light units will fuck me over in a straight-up fight.

[Agent Sorchus]

Karlack meat as a Delicacy? Mang I'm gonna have to get your guys eaten on a matter of principle.

Hey we're insectivores, even though it is illegal as all hell someone is going to try to do it. Besides this is the counter to:

The Eoghans have already found out why the Karlacks are hated; one of their ships was attacked just recently, and no one survived.

[Steve]

Oh, as for my new prologue bit?

You can thank Siege. From our MSN chat yesterday.

Stephen: Am I wrong to have designated my Expeditionary Cruisers the Imperator-class?
Stephen:
Siege: Only if you don't open the first story that has them in it with one chasing a consular ship.

So, poof, a scene of an Imperator chasing a consular ship. I even named it Devastator!

[Force Lord]

"Fourteen hundred years ago you were considered so vile that you provoked the ire of a dictatorial madman and your nation was beset by plague bombs.

Is this a subtle reference to Dovan Aybeem? Or am I mistaken?

[Steve]

"Fourteen hundred years ago you were considered so vile that you provoked the ire of a dictatorial madman and your nation was beset by plague bombs.

Is this a subtle reference to Dovan Aybeem? Or am I mistaken?

It's a reference to SDNW2. Astaria was subjected to biological weapon attacks by the Republic of Shepistan.

[Force Lord]

"Fourteen hundred years ago you were considered so vile that you provoked the ire of a dictatorial madman and your nation was beset by plague bombs.

Is this a subtle reference to Dovan Aybeem? Or am I mistaken?

It's a reference to SDNW2. Astaria was subjected to biological weapon attacks by the Republic of Shepistan.

Ah, never realized that.

[loomer]

Time has gotten away from me, as it always does, but I've upped the Outlander naval data. I think it's ended up with a nice progression in terms of number:value ratios.

Planning a story post tomorrow about the return of the inmacabora from the Shoals near Outlander space, battered and scorched, with something odd on board.

[Siege]

[RogueIce]

Oh, as for my new prologue bit?

You can thank Siege. From our MSN chat yesterday.

Stephen: Am I wrong to have designated my Expeditionary Cruisers the Imperator-class?
Stephen:
Siege: Only if you don't open the first story that has them in it with one chasing a consular ship.

So, poof, a scene of an Imperator chasing a consular ship. I even named it Devastator!

Way to steal my Star Destroyer class name.