A reason for Trek inferiority...

[FireNexus]

The federation, and most (If not all) other trek species we've seen, are heavily inferior to SW races. There's no way around it. There's nothing the main deflector can do to change it, and the Borg sure as hell won't be able to adapt to it.

Here's what I've been thinking, though. With the exception of the Borg, who's command and development structure are so far out of whack that it's a wonder they weren't wiped out in their original incarnation, the ST races are very young.

Most of the races we've seen haven't been exploring space for more than a millenia or so, thus their tech wouldn't be that great.

It's simply an unfair vs., IMO. SW races have been developing for several dozen millenia, at least. i.e., they've been a galactic republic (and an empire after that) for at least 50,000 years, and could've been poking around space for longer than that.

To expect almost any ST race, besides the virulently stupid Borg, to be able to match that kind of power is laughable. The warsies are right, the Empire, even one Imperial ship, would wipe the federation, Romulans, Klingons, and Dominion of the face of the universe without much thought.

And the Trekkies are stupid to even argue the point, because their "clients" couldn't in 300 years of development match the millenia of development that the Wars races have.

Well, this should inspire some argument, I think. I'll state now that I'm pretty much pro-Warsie, for the reason i mentioned.

[SPOOFE]

To expect almost any ST race, besides the virulently stupid Borg, to be able to match that kind of power is laughable.

The problem is that a lot of Trek fans can't simply enjoy the show for its own sake. For some reason, they view the overall quality of the show as being dependent on the technology presented in the show.... essentially they think, "Star Trek is superior, so it MUST have better guns!"

It's quite ridiculous, really.

[BioDroid]

So in essence, you're admitting to doing some "Trekie Baiting."

[Crown]

I agree, ST races at least the one's we see, really aren't up to the standard of the SW. I guess that it's just we all want to believe that what we love is the best. So I don't blame anyone for that, we all have it.

[Cpt_Frank]

If there was a ST race which had anything o match SW tech it would either

a) control the entire milky way, or at least large portions
or
b)have decided not to expand it's territory ie is lacking the numbers to match the Empire.

I guess that it's just we all want to believe that what we love is the best. So I don't blame anyone for that, we all have it.

Hmm, I love SW greatly, but I accept that the Culture or a great many other Sci-Fi universes could kick SW's ass any day. I don't like it, but I accept it. Oh well.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The federation, and most (If not all) other trek species we've seen, are heavily inferior to SW races. There's no way around it. There's nothing the main deflector can do to change it, and the Borg sure as hell won't be able to adapt to it.

Here's what I've been thinking, though. With the exception of the Borg, who's command and development structure are so far out of whack that it's a wonder they weren't wiped out in their original incarnation, the ST races are very young.

Most of the races we've seen haven't been exploring space for more than a millenia or so, thus their tech wouldn't be that great.

It's simply an unfair vs., IMO. SW races have been developing for several dozen millenia, at least. i.e., they've been a galactic republic (and an empire after that) for at least 50,000 years, and could've been poking around space for longer than that.

To expect almost any ST race, besides the virulently stupid Borg, to be able to match that kind of power is laughable. The warsies are right, the Empire, even one Imperial ship, would wipe the federation, Romulans, Klingons, and Dominion of the face of the universe without much thought.

And the Trekkies are stupid to even argue the point, because their "clients" couldn't in 300 years of development match the millenia of development that the Wars races have.

Well, this should inspire some argument, I think. I'll state now that I'm pretty much pro-Warsie, for the reason i mentioned.

See Standardized response here:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... #Fairfight

[Alyeska]

The federation, and most (If not all) other trek species we've seen, are heavily inferior to SW races. There's no way around it.

That is heavily debateable. ST has slower FTL, but theirs is not affected by Interdictors. They have transporters, and possibly longer range weaponry. Their medical technology is at least equal. The industrial capacity is similar to the New Republic (You probably have to scale it up). The biggest issue is the firepower and size issues, and that is NOT the only thing to dictate an entire debate. Their military might not be up to the Empire's standards, but that doesn't make them entirely inferior, not in the least.

[Cpt_Frank]

The federation, and most (If not all) other trek species we've seen, are heavily inferior to SW races. There's no way around it.

That is heavily debateable. ST has slower FTL, but theirs is not affected by Interdictors. They have transporters, and possibly longer range weaponry. Their medical technology is at least equal. The industrial capacity is similar to the New Republic (You probably have to scale it up). The biggest issue is the firepower and size issues, and that is NOT the only thing to dictate an entire debate. Their military might not be up to the Empire's standards, but that doesn't make them entirely inferior, not in the least.

1.The last time I checked, warp drive was affected by the Immobilizer-418. But I could be wrong on that.

2.Proof for longer ranges? And don't field the old 300,000 km thing again, that's already been refuted.

3.Their medical tech is not bad, but they lack the bacta.

4.Wrong, the NR can order ships at KDY, Rendilli, Correlian engineering, etc which each can build more than 40 ships per year.

5. Military might and industrial capacity actually are the things which make a winner in a war. Since the Empire vastly surpasses the Federation on both issues, it wins, plain and simple.

[Mr Bean]

By last count there are over sixteen major shipyards each capable of building an ISD in less than a month and a SSD in under three, And they can be building more than one, Witness when the NR went after the Cyrstal Gravity Field Trap there where more than three ISDs under construction

The only thing that slows down ISD construction is getting the nessary materilals there and the crew in-time for the launching

[Vympel]

The warmaking capability of the Federation; indeed the entire known ST galaxy, is easily vastly inferior to that of the Empire and the New Republic. They build much bigger ships of much more massive construction faster; and of course they have the Death Star and Death Star II- the ultimate proof of superior industrial capacity, not to mention technology. Like come on, if it was hollow you could fit the entire Federation fleet in there (every ship ever built!) and still have lots of room to spare!

It is a total mismatch. Steamrolled. Squished. Crushed. Annihilated. No extra industrial output required on the part of the Empire- they could draw ships from existing fleets. 25,000 Star Destroyers built in the space of 20 years, remember? And that's just ISDs.

[Alyeska]

By last count there are over sixteen major shipyards each capable of building an ISD in less than a month and a SSD in under three, And they can be building more than one, Witness when the NR went after the Cyrstal Gravity Field Trap there where more than three ISDs under construction

The only thing that slows down ISD construction is getting the nessary materilals there and the crew in-time for the launching

Does Bilbringi count as one of the three major yards?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The problem with debating with Trek is that it is indeed, complete overkill for SW. But there is simply no other sci-fi universe that we can debate with that isn't god-like in tech (ie-the Culture), or vastly inferior to a degree of unimaginablilty (I can't really think of anything at the moment, but there out there).

So we must debate with Trek, despite its inferiority, because without Trek, we essentially have nothing.

Unless of course your DarkStar, then of course Trek is superior, and if you don't like it hes gonna say it again and again and again until your brainwashed to absolutley love it!

[SirNitram]

The problem with debating with Trek is that it is indeed, complete overkill for SW. But there is simply no other sci-fi universe that we can debate with that isn't god-like in tech (ie-the Culture), or vastly inferior to a degree of unimaginablilty (I can't really think of anything at the moment, but there out there).

So we must debate with Trek, despite its inferiority, because without Trek, we essentially have nothing.

Unless of course your DarkStar, then of course Trek is superior, and if you don't like it hes gonna say it again and again and again until your brainwashed to absolutley love it!

There is Honorverse, which has the peculiar distinction of having FTL acceleration slower than an ISD's sublight accel.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The problem with debating with Trek is that it is indeed, complete overkill for SW. But there is simply no other sci-fi universe that we can debate with that isn't god-like in tech (ie-the Culture), or vastly inferior to a degree of unimaginablilty (I can't really think of anything at the moment, but there out there).

So we must debate with Trek, despite its inferiority, because without Trek, we essentially have nothing.

Unless of course your DarkStar, then of course Trek is superior, and if you don't like it hes gonna say it again and again and again until your brainwashed to absolutley love it!

There is Honorverse, which has the peculiar distinction of having FTL acceleration slower than an ISD's sublight accel.

*jaw hangs open* FTL travel huh?

[Doomriser]

ST industrial capacity is comparable to the NR? Really?

How many hyperspace capable, multi-TT reactor weilding 1.2-1.6 km ships 10-13 times the size of a GCS can the Federation build per year?

None.

I'm sure the NR could build a million crappy under-armoured, poorly-shielded, practically unarmed, poorly-designed, really slow starships with polluting drives if they wanted to. How many Mon Calamari cruisers can the Federation build? How many Republic Star Destroyers?

I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

Even per-capita, I'm fairly certain that all Mon Calamari cruisers are produced by the Mon Cal and not the galaxy at large. This gives us some fairly localized production figures. Even 3-4 MC Cruisers a year would match or exceed Starfleet's shipbuilding capability, given that a Mon Cal cruiser is dozens of times larger than the average Federation starship, never mind the other shipyards which produce Star Destroyers.

[Doomriser]

And I'm not even counting the civilian manufacturing which already totally blows away Starfleet.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Yes Mikes calcs say that an ISD is worth, what? 16 GCSs I think. And a Mon Cal cruiser is 2/3 the size of an ISD? So, the Mon Cals make the equivilent to about 10 GCSs when they produce a singleMon Cal Cruiser.

Can the Feds even put out 10 GCSs (or the equivilent size in other ships) in a year? Two years? Just another show of Treks inferiority, by any rate.

[Mr Bean]

Does Bilbringi count as one of the three major yards?

Yes the Big Three are Kuat, Bilbringi and before Corrilla(Hmm I think Fondor now is bigger) which realy ARE Ship Building SYSTEMS while there are fifty to sixty Ship Building Planets out there there are roughly 13-14 Ship Building Systems

And I'm not even counting places that make Fighters and Corvette or Smaller Craft just systems with Victory class SD or better abilites

[Alyeska]

Does Bilbringi count as one of the three major yards?

Yes the Big Three are Kuat, Bilbringi and before Corrilla(Hmm I think Fondor now is bigger) which realy ARE Ship Building SYSTEMS while there are fifty to sixty Ship Building Planets out there there are roughly 13-14 Ship Building Systems

And I'm not even counting places that make Fighters and Corvette or Smaller Craft just systems with Victory class SD or better abilites

FYI in the Thrawn trilogy Karrde is witness to a almost complete ISD be destroyed my Malik's operation. Karrde commented that it was almost done, less then a month to finish. If the Empire could build a single ISD in under a month, why would Karrde comment that an almost finished ISD was less then a month from being finished?

[SirNitram]

????

Who claimed an ISD can go from start to finish in a month?

I know that if you counted the entire Empire, every shipyard and deepdock working at full power, an ISD was completed every seven minutes, but....

[Alyeska]

Yes Mikes calcs say that an ISD is worth, what? 16 GCSs I think. And a Mon Cal cruiser is 2/3 the size of an ISD? So, the Mon Cals make the equivilent to about 10 GCSs when they produce a singleMon Cal Cruiser.

Can the Feds even put out 10 GCSs (or the equivilent size in other ships) in a year? Two years? Just another show of Treks inferiority, by any rate.

Good question. In a single scene in Sacrafice Angles DS9 we see a clean dozen GCSs. Out of a fleet of 600 some ships, and a fleet shot numbering no more then 50 ships, we saw that 20% of the ships were GCSs. It would seem that the Federation was able to build quite a few GCSs after TNG (many speculate as of the end of TNG there was no more then 6-12 GCSs). And if you take Relativity VGR as an indication, we know that ST shipyards are single construction units, but series of construction units working together.

As I said, the Imperial construction activity isn't that of technology, its of pure scale. The fact that the Empire built so much is impressive (DS2 being even more so), but that in itself is an issue of scale. If you have 2 million systems, I should hope you can build ships at such speeds.

Lets try and examine this taking scale into account.

The Federation has 450 planets/colonies (arbitrary number, assumed 3 planets and colonies for every member world, which is 150). Divide 12,000 ships across that and you get 26 ships per world.

Empire has 25,000 ISDs, and numberous support craft. The ISD is the recognized symbol of the Empire, and is the center of any combat group. It seems to be an extremely common ship. In fleet engagements you typically see 4 ISDs with up to 20 support ships. Lets assume there is a 40-1 count. That would give you 1 million other ships for 25,000 ISDs. Ok, lets increase that number to factor in SSDs and VSDs. A clean 2 million Imperial ships. Divide that accross 2 million star systems (note, not all are inhabited) and you get one ship per system.

So scaling it at ships per world, the Federation BEATS the Empire. Though you have to account for size differences, etc... It would seem that when you even everything out (accounting size differences) both the Empire and Federation are equal to eachother in ships per planet. So, the Empire has an impressive industrial capacity, but if you take into account the scale issue, its not THAT far fetched. Although come to think of it, as size increases all other attributes increase at a lesser rate (thats why size comparitively, destroyers owned Battleships, why single soldiers are more weight effective then a tank), so the fact that the Empire was able to increase in size but maintain a relatively similar size ratio to a smaller Government, that in itself is EXTREMELY impressive.

[Alyeska]

????

Who claimed an ISD can go from start to finish in a month?

I know that if you counted the entire Empire, every shipyard and deepdock working at full power, an ISD was completed every seven minutes, but....

IIRC it was if you took the date from the first ISD to the last ISD built, counted the total number of ISDs built and compared it to the dates, it averaged to 7 ISDs per minute. That doesn't mean an ISD is built that fast, just that the Empire had a LOT of construction yards building ISDs.

[Alyeska]

By last count there are over sixteen major shipyards each capable of building an ISD in less than a month and a SSD in under three,

I do believe he claimed an ISD could be built in under a month.

[Doomriser]

"A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor's command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control."
[ISB, Ch. 8]

My PDD on ASVS on the ISB and Kaz' analyis show that the Imperial Fleet specifications are actually conservative. But we will use them anyway.

We have at least 4,800,000 Imperial starships going by a conservative 2000 for "thousands" of sector groups. Note I am not even counting the enormous amount of civilian vessels, which Starfleet also must produce and control and fits into your fleet numbers.

And Aleskya, where do you get 12,000 Federation starships from?

And don't you think there would be an abundance of GCS' in an invasion force? Most of the time, we rarely see them.

[Alyeska]

"A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor's command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control."
[ISB, Ch. 8]

My PDD on ASVS on the ISB and Kaz' analyis show that the Imperial Fleet specifications are actually conservative. But we will use them anyway.

We have at least 4,800,000 Imperial starships going by a conservative 2000 for "thousands" of sector groups. Note I am not even counting the enormous amount of civilian vessels, which Starfleet also must produce and control and fits into your fleet numbers.

And Aleskya, where do you get 12,000 Federation starships from?

And don't you think there would be an abundance of GCS' in an invasion force? Most of the time, we rarely see them.

Refer to the Federation Fleet size thread. And we rarely see GCSs? In a single fleet shot in Sacrafice Angles we saw a clean dozen of them. They aren't are rare as first thought.

Interesting as to the Imperial Source Book. That would be 66 ships per ISD. 66 times 25,000 ISDs nets you less then 2 million ships.