The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Night_stalker]

Yes, we need that as a T-shirt. We also need the Final Battle to be climatically awesome, preferably by having Yaw-Yaw destroy half of the Eternal City.

[UnderAGreySky]

"Oh Shut Up!"

Did anyone read that in the voice of The Blackadder?

[Erra]

Yes, we need that as a T-shirt. We also need the Final Battle to be climatically awesome, preferably by having Yaw-Yaw destroy half of the Eternal City.

This could actually be a distinct possibility, depening on the extent of Yahweh's power. Given his mentality, he may go into omnicidal maniac mode after getting beat hard enough, drunk in the delusion that nothing can exist without him, therefore if he is to be defeated, he will take everything and everyone with him.

Que humans going "fuck that" and blasting him into little god-chunks.

[Deebles]

Michael made that waaay too personal. He should have just launched a bolt at Yahweh's heart suddenly when he was in the middle of prostrating himself. But I suppose this is very personal to him.

He can't risk that. Michael, as has been established, is a real old schemer, and knows that he doesn't just need to bring down YY. but to establish a backing for whatever he does next. And he won't achieve that with a cheap assassination, but only by properly outclassing the prior top dog. I'm personally wondering if his intention isn't, in fact:
Spoiler

To bring YY to his knees before finishing him off.

It's more immediately dangerous than just killing YY, but much more meaningful for any observers.

[MondoMage]

Is it bad that I immediately thought "Macross" when the whole bit about music came along XD?

I don't know. What's Macross?

Anime series with awesome music, missile spam, and mechs.

Specifically, based on the idea that music has the power to overthrow empires, cause aliens to abandon their culture-less lifestyles and either go insane or join with humanity in a giant kumbaya group hug, and generally cause bad thoughts to turn to good ones. And if that doesn't work, there's also kick-ass mecha that'll stomp you flat.

And I thought Macross the moment I hit that bit, too.

[Werrf]

He can't risk that. Michael, as has been established, is a real old schemer, and knows that he doesn't just need to bring down YY. but to establish a backing for whatever he does next. And he won't achieve that with a cheap assassination, but only by properly outclassing the prior top dog. I'm personally wondering if his intention isn't, in fact: Spoiler

To bring YY to his knees before finishing him off.

It's more immediately dangerous than just killing YY, but much more meaningful for any observers.

I was wondering if his plan was not even to beat Yah-Yah, but to die heroically fighting the big lugnut, showing the other angels that Yah-Yah can and should be beaten, making himself a martyr for the Cause. But then that doesn't really fit in with his thought process that we've been privy to so far.

Either way, win or lose, it's going to be awesome.

[Morilore]

He can't risk that. Michael, as has been established, is a real old schemer, and knows that he doesn't just need to bring down YY. but to establish a backing for whatever he does next. And he won't achieve that with a cheap assassination, but only by properly outclassing the prior top dog. I'm personally wondering if his intention isn't, in fact:
Spoiler

To bring YY to his knees before finishing him off.

It's more immediately dangerous than just killing YY, but much more meaningful for any observers.

Who's watching besides the Mason's audience, many of whom are already in Michael's pocket, the "living creatures," and the Elders, who hate Yahweh for what he makes them do? Also he has a number of his acolytes in the Angelic population ready to push for his acceptance as the new ruler.

[Gerald Tarrant]

Therefore if Satan was intelligent he would have sent more than just one berserker at a time and used them much more often.

No, if Satan was intelligent (by the standards of his time) he wouldn't do any such. Berserkers have to port near Nephilim. All they would do is create chaos among the civilians, which is pointless because it doesn't solve the problem of the army on your doorsetp. There were no dumb demons in this story, only demons who had insufficient data with which to create an ideal way of dealing with the humans.

They had information about how ineffective humans were against berserkers (Luga mentioned that they'd pop into Earth every now and then; back in TSW:Armageddon). Satan also had testimonials about the inability of any of his forces to stand against humans. He chose to disregard the former as unimportant, and disbelieve the latter. If instead he'd been a little rational; and accepted evidence that contradicted his own belief he would have realized how outclassed his field forces were and looked for something else sooner. Reread the mall attack,here (you'll have to scroll a bit, sorry) it was only stopped because of those two huntera; now imagine five Baldricks running loose slaughtering. Now, consider that multiplied by thousands; say a single legion devoted to rear attacks. It could have severely hampered the human mobilization out of all proportion to the resources devoted to it, instead of most of the effort going to the front, leaders might be forced to parcel out divisions to respond to Baldrick terror attacks. Think of it like a Demonic version of the V-2. It wouldn't be a war winner, but it might just force enough diverted resources to stalemate the humans. It certainly would have been a more effective use of resources than sending them to die pointlessly against human armies.

Now look at this link (again you'll need to scroll). This is Satan learning of the destruction of Abigor's command. You can sort of figure his thought process... Demons don't lose against humans, but they did... it must be... cowardice, or incompetence, kill the moron responsible.

Now compare to this, aircraft go down and here the postmortem. Thought process is: humans own the air, but we lost 11 aircraft, ah crap some of our assumptions are wrong we may need to change tactics, or even count on not owning the air. No raging at incompetent subordinates, executing cowards or traitors; just changing some of their assumptions or theories.

At first blush this story seems about humans vs mythological/magical creatures. But it's really about rationalism versus magical thinking. And if Michael beats Yahweh, then it will be the triumph of his scientific approach to the problem of Angelic power versus Yahweh's immense power and (magical thinking) faith in self. And most of the critical conflicts are about that. And if Satan had been a little more willing to entertain facts that contradicted his worldview he might have survived or stalemated the humans a bit longer.

[edit]punctuation and spelling fixes[/edit]

[The Vortex Empire]

So we finally come to the climax of this part of the story. Fucking amazing job, Stuart, this is the best story I've ever read. It's a shame Michael doesn't have any metal bands in the Club, now there's some truly powerful music. They're not dead yet, but get Judas Priest or 3 Inches of Blood in there and Michael would have the power to smash Yah-Yah down in one strike.

[Simon_Jester]

This could actually be a distinct possibility, depening on the extent of Yahweh's power. Given his mentality, he may go into omnicidal maniac mode after getting beat hard enough, drunk in the delusion that nothing can exist without him, therefore if he is to be defeated, he will take everything and everyone with him.

That said, he's not nearly powerful enough to destroy large fractions of the Eternal City, not if it's as big as Stuart is saying.

But yes, just having Yahweh go on a rampage outside the Temple would probably be enough to have him ended. Though we still don't know what he looks like... do we?

[Deebles]

I was wondering if his plan was not even to beat Yah-Yah, but to die heroically fighting the big lugnut, showing the other angels that Yah-Yah can and should be beaten, making himself a martyr for the Cause. But then that doesn't really fit in with his thought process that we've been privy to so far.

My reckoning is that Michael's planning to win this, but he's also gamed it so that if he loses, YY's aura of invincibility is still shattered (whereas if he'd gone for the assassination and then lost, it wouldn't have looked nearly so impressive). This then would leave the field open for someone else to maybe take down the (exhausted?) YY.

[Nematocyst]

Perhaps he will rouse whatever Angel still believes in him and zerg rush out of the City, towards the human positions. 'If you want something done...'
Michael will allow it, because that action will get both Yahweh and his faithful killed.

No rock-off?

[Gogyra]

So we finally come to the climax of this part of the story. Fucking amazing job, Stuart, this is the best story I've ever read. It's a shame Michael doesn't have any metal bands in the Club, now there's some truly powerful music. They're not dead yet, but get Judas Priest or 3 Inches of Blood in there and Michael would have the power to smash Yah-Yah down in one strike.

I think this might be thematically appropriate.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=tcdJcrGJ97M&sns=em[/youtube]

[Night_stalker]

Forget my choice of music, this one is more proper! So, Who's up for some popcorn?

[The Vortex Empire]

I think this might be thematically appropriate.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=tcdJcrGJ97M&sns=em[/youtube]

Yeah, that feels about right.

[Junghalli]

These two would link nicely. If for some reason the Euphrates becomes one of the few major sources of fresh water that is not contaminated, it would become like the Colorado River, which in most seasons is completely siphoned off before it reaches the sea, or in this case merges with the Tigris. Yahweh once again getting credit for human acts committed in desperation.

Good one, although I'd still prefer something that would work in the original narrative, which was written long before humans could do such a thing (unless we assume God has precognition and foresaw human tech development, but that creates a whole lot of other issues). Hmm, maybe leave the Euphrates one of the only uncontaminated fresh water sources, then have the contamination be simultaneous with the appearance of the frog creatures. That seems close enough to the spirit if not the literal description, if you squint at it right.

To sum up the last couple of pages...

"WHY DIDN'T YOU WRITE THE STORY LIKE HOW I WOULD WANT IT BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWW"

You know, virtually all literary criticism can be potentially answered that way, what with art appreciation being inherently subjective and all. If you don't like something, it's obvious you're just mad that the author didn't write the story the way you liked it, rather than because it might actually have flaws. Battlefield Earth is clearly a great movie, and the people who diss it clearly are just mad that it wasn't the kind of movie they wanted to see.

In other words: as a way of deflecting criticism, that's actually pretty weak, since it's basically just appealing to the inherent subjectivity of art, and if we go down that road it's impossible to criticize anything (except on grammar, scientific hardness, and other relatively objective criteria).

But hey, if Stuart doesn't care to cater to the tastes of anyone who doesn't like reading an essentially one-sided curbstomp in doorstopper duology form, that's his call, and his loss if it turns out that only a small niche market actually likes that kind of thing.

[Tikigod784]

I imagine Michael will be victorious on some level, but humanity will probably destroy his plans after the fact. Michael will be lucky to have just a prison sentence if any of his dealings get out. Then again, he IS having a rather endearing change of heart on some level.
It'll be a shame to have no Michael in book 3 (this was supposed to be a trilogy right?), but I suppose the important thing is whether or not Michael's death will make the story have more impact...

[westrim]

Anime series with awesome music, missile spam, and mechs.

Ahhh, thank you. Such things are unknown to me; I don't like cartoons and their ilk as a genre. I don't even like Tom and Jerry. So I know very little about them except for odd bits I've caught by accident

*Cringes* I'll spare you any griping (and lists of "watch X and then get back to me"), but I'll say that Anime and Cartoons are very different, partially because of the cultural climates they grew from- specifically, cartoons had their formative years during the Great Depression when people wanted to be amused, and anime had its formative years after Japan lost WW2 and got all introspective. Now for westerners animation= kids and the Japanese use it for pretty much anything that live action is used for, but more flexible.

For more, and more accurate, information a visit to a certain familiar site would be helpful.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Michael isn't just trying to destroy Yaweh's power, he's trying to destroy his ability to rule through fear. I've no doubt he hopes to win, but if it was just about killing him he could have smuggled a whole whack of explosives into the temple. No, Michael needs to (as Whiplash said in Iron Man 2) prove that even gods can bleed.

[darksoul]

The battle seems nice. One question though:
Where did the Elder learned the traditional gesture to zip his mouth? Does he know what a zipper is? Odd, indeed...

Michael should have bombed some more temples in the city to silence their choruses as well... maybe he did off camera, don't know.

I believe he wants to win this. With the humans at the door, there is really no need to demonstrate Yahwe's falibility to anyone (humans know, angels wouldn't have time to do anything about it). And he doesn't need to soften Yahwe for the humans.

A subtler idea would be to lure the battle to where humans could see, and there, either count on their suppor and play the graceful rescued resistance fighter, or then play the martyr, before humans, not angels.

Still, I think he wants to win. In traditional media a number of tropes would set in to give Michael a rougher time before his unexpected win, but this is a critically one sided saga as mentioned above so, nothing can be take for granted.

I would buy a "Shut up" t-shirt alright. Pity no many people would get that in my country

[Deebles]

Michael isn't just trying to destroy Yaweh's power, he's trying to destroy his ability to rule through fear. I've no doubt he hopes to win, but if it was just about killing him he could have smuggled a whole whack of explosives into the temple. No, Michael needs to (as Whiplash said in Iron Man 2) prove that even gods can bleed.

This.

[Morilore]

Oh right; Michael has high-ranking supporters throughout Angelic society, and he's moving faster than he wanted to because he's convinced humans are about to unleash a nuclear holocaust on his species, but most importantly he needs to make a point of how right he is for the forty or so people who are currently watching him, most of whom are already on his side. It's not like the author made a point of Michael reflecting on how he's enjoying himself too much, after all.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Oh right; Michael has high-ranking supporters throughout Angelic society, and he's moving faster than he wanted to because he's convinced humans are about to unleash a nuclear holocaust on his species, but most importantly he needs to make a point of how right he is for the forty or so people who are currently watching him, most of whom are already on his side. It's not like the author made a point of Michael reflecting on how he's enjoying himself too much, after all.

Who said the Holy Court is on his side?

[Ronsu]

Ah, sweet release. Stifling, religious authoritarianism being edged out by the power of music and the life and joy it brings. Karmic, innit?


SDF Macross and the power of Culture/music came to my mind, also. Mike should have brought Yahweh a pineapple salad as a going away-gift.

[nobody_really]

There's gotta be some instruments going crazy from the sharp increase in electromagnetic forces, the humans will probably send in a spy drone or something to see what the hell is going on.

When it's a 1500 km square city, or 2,250,000 km2 (a little bigger than Mexico and a little smaller than the Democratic Republic of Congo), that might be kind of tough. If the Ultimate Temple is in the center, the HEA is at least 750 km (~560 miles) away, and the effects might be somewhat attenuated by that point. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.