The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Captain Trek]

Nice Job Stuart! Now, for mood music, I recommend this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qNP6rAe ... re=related

I think this might be thematically appropriate.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=tcdJcrGJ97M&sns=em[/youtube]

Heh, I have to admit I was listening to the Mortal Kombat theme when reading this.
Worked rather well

Oddly enough, when I got done listening to the Dam Busters theme (I assumed you meant the 1955 version, which gives its title as two words, as opposed to the 2010 remake which spells it as "Dambusters") as I continued to read the chapter, I then fired up Rule Britannia of all things... It was because a couple of bars in the theme from Dam Busters reminded me of Gilbert and Sullivan's "For He is an Englishman" and that got me thinking along the lines of British-specific pieces that might fit, Rule Britannia immediately coming to mind (don't ask me why, because I don't have a clue myself, particularly with the references to Christianity Rule Britannia has in its opening verse), specifically this rendition...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25zynTTl ... re=related

[darksoul]

I'm just noting it it so that poor Ghengis Quan doesn't think he's going insane.

Staying sane is wildly over rated.

Amen to that

[darksoul]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say 'Unique' creatures?

even more unique if we assume each of those creatures is a reminder of a race enslaved or exterminated by the angels... it would be the weirdest trophy room, one that would fit an egocentric immortal God.

[Razor One]

Oddly enough, when I got up to the part where the confrontation began This started up on my playlist. Ironic given its title

This was followed by This and This, the creepy thing being that they could all work depending on how one interprets the fight.

Given that my playlist was on random at the time, I am now off to buy lotto tickets in the hope that I may just have invented luck.

[GrayAnderson]

No hon... I'm talking the quiet MiB with the inflectionless voices who wilt flowers and cause a drop in temperature whenever they walk by. The "Wizards of Armegeddon". The ones who have been in the background with Korenoko, with Abigor, with various generals.

They're members of the various independent think tanks (collectively known as The Business) who, inter alia, did work on target analysis for strategic weapons. The most famous is Herman Kahn. Don Brennan was the guy who took over HI after Herman died. Don was a friend, a very charming and affable man with a fund of good stories. Unfortunately, his ability at gardening was zero, the first year at H, his lawn died. All of it. We used to joke that he could kill a plant just by walking into the same room as it. We all try and keep out voices flat and uninflected while we're making study reports. It avoids misinterpretation. As for the drop in temperature, it's us cheerfully adopting the accusation "you people make my blood run cold" as a compliment.

Stuart,
You've kept some of the most interesting company of anybody I've had the privilege to keep company with in any form (including online forums). Stories like that are almost as good as reading the novel itself.

Also...this chapter is an excellent culmination of the buildup of the last few chapters. I get a funny feeling that the exchange between Yahweh and Michael in it will be remembered by a lot of your readers for a long time. It's also great to have read the novel through thus far as, in effect, a serial: The buildup has been longer and better for it.

[Edward Yee]

... Honestly? No, not really. Almost everything that had potential has been handled in the most anticlimactic manner possible. The angel of death comes to mind. Oh, and the red tide.

That to me is actually one of the DRAWS of this story... the seeming anticlimacticness; gives it that "authentic" feel to me. Heck, just lookit the case of Yahweh's son... he had two scenes and then just gets killed off-screen, yet it's awesome (in a Holy Shit Quotient) kind of way because of that.

I'm half expecting the fight to be cut short by cruise missiles or bunker-buster bombs or something similar.

DO it DO it DO it *repeat ad nauseam* Put me down as "Would prefer that this turn out more akin to how Satan's-little-bunker did."

Just had a mental image of a HEA soldier drunkenly fist-fighting with Michael's mathematician once they find out that both Yahweh and Michael got theirs by human weapons... emphasis on "drunkenly." (In terms of how I'd have written it, I'd have had more coarseness by the First-Lifers, with the exception of Petraeus -- the closest thing this story has to a Gary Stu, though not actually one. )

In any case though, was there anything between the Legion and the City other than the walls and sheer geographic distance?

[Pelranius]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say 'Unique' creatures?

even more unique if we assume each of those creatures is a reminder of a race enslaved or exterminated by the angels... it would be the weirdest trophy room, one that would fit an egocentric immortal God.

I thought that some of them, like the ones with multiple eyes were specifically engineered for Yahweh's ego. Or a party favor from one of those "allies" that were disposed of.

[J Random]

[/lurk]
I've been following this story since somewhere around Maion's kidnapping, and I think it has the most awesome concept of any story I've ever read. The execution seems weaker in places, but since the story is posted as it's written without the multiple passes of editing that a published novel would go through, that's somewhat expected, and it mostly just makes me want the printed version even more. One of the things that's been bugging me for a while prompted me to register: why can the angels put portals right into specific uninhabited areas? Demons needed a sensitive on the other side, and humans did until the development of more sophisticated portal gear (how's the adaptation of cell towers to portal generation going?), but angels can pop up right in the middle of Antarctica or over a random highway. Sorry if this has already been answered.

[Edward Yee]

Would find it hilariously ironic if Michael failed to defeat Yahweh due to, as he admitted, enjoying "it" too much...

[Kuroji]

I'm just waiting for a plot twist somewhere. This has been going entirely too smoothly for Michael, even with him stepping up the timetable. Michael defeating Yahweh after a protracted battle and hearing a slow clap behind him, an amused Ehlmas behind him at the door or something. Nothing wrong with sending someone else in his armor, he at least had an inkling of how dangerous the humans were, nothing as much as Michael but would he really waltz out there and risk himself without knowing how effective they are in combat and knowing that they did succeed in killing Satan?

[MysteriousDarkLordv3]

If Ehlmas did survive (I find it unlikely that he could find anyone tall enough to wear his armor, but I find him portaling out at the last second probable), I don't think he'd throw in with Yahweh. I think he might try to kill both Yahweh and Michael and seize Heaven for himself.

After all, how does it feel being the Heir Apparent to an immortal?? How many millennia has be waiting for Big Daddy Yah-Yah to step down, keel over, etc? I think he'd take the shot to be the Quisling for humanity, which would both fulfill Michael's main objectives while simultaneously leaving him open to prosecution and/or ass-kicking by everyone he's stomped on.

[Kuroji]

If Ehlmas got out of there somehow before being vaporized, it's probably more likely that he'd pick a random place and portal there rather than to try and stick around as the new head honcho considering the past history of Heaven, here. I suppose the possibility does exist, but I don't really see him jumping on the throne unless he's willing to work with the humans and make a lot of changes... possible, though.

[GrayAnderson]

I've thrown some of this under a spoiler since it deals with something that Stuart spoiler-covered, but I did want to ask a bit more about the evolutionary processes at work in the story (and some associated questions). As usual, if all will be revealed in time then I'm willing to let it come out in due course.
Spoiler

First, the choir. Stuart noted that they are decidedly pre-human. By this does he mean that they are another of the races which were subjugated, and Yahweh just kept them around because he liked their singing? Or are they just one of the dozen or so pre-human races that ran around on Earth? Either option seems quite valid, and neither would surprise me if Yahweh decided that while he didn't like a given race, he liked their voices enough that these two dozen could stay.

Second, the whole situation with the angels and demons being split off from humanity several million years prior (something I assume based on the relatively mild genetic differences; if you split them off too much earlier then you'd have to have either substantial parallel development in the DNA or substantial effects from the occasional genetic swapping through Succubae) raises a couple of questions:
1) Fluffy and Wuffles: Were they the results of attempted Hellish speciation (pun partly intended) or something else? If it's the former, then it seems to me that Yahweh simply had less luck with breeding specialized creatures, while Satan actually seems to have managed the process moderately well (and thus got his variety of types). It also seems that he might have pulled in remnants of other races and tried breeding that off in a different direction. In either case, he seems to have come to dead ends of some sort, junked the projects, and kept a couple around in the throne room as a display.
2) If that split happened somewhere in the 4-8 MYA range, then what in the blazes happened fifty or so MYA, when all of the junk DNA showed up? This may be a doozy of a spoiler, but knowing the detail of Stuart's work it strikes me that there's some sort of explanation.
3) In connection with number two, if there were a raft of "compatible" species that all of the resurrection machinery worked on, I have to wonder about the validity of an in-universe 'seeding' hypothesis. One could accept Yahweh and Satan as the responsible parties (drop baseline humans around on a dozen worlds for future harvesting, and then 'tap' their civilizations along when the appropriate time comes to begin harvesting them in any substantial number) or an outside party (a[nother] Universe C resident or group). Of course, life could simply have sprung up on a couple (even intelligent life) could arise in multiple places, but that would raise issues with the resurrection machinery and just how adaptable it is (or if there's not some central switching system 'somewhere' that's letting other creatures of that species use it), something that hasn't really been addressed as of yet.

Third, while we're on the topic: Ehlmas. If Yahweh is the father, who is the mother? Is there one? Etc. Basically, I'm wondering about the breeding habits and whatnot of the deities in question.

Finally, an odd question: I know that Hell was discovered because someone was coming back to Heaven and got lost (something that is an amusing metaphor when you think about it). Is Hell the only other UB 'bubble' known to exist to the relevant parties (i.e. the angels and demons; I exempt Yahweh and Satan from the discussion here because of the likelihood that they aren't going to be around to chat)? Or are there others that they know of (but that are unusable for whatever reason)?

[Simon_Jester]

I'm just waiting for a plot twist somewhere. This has been going entirely too smoothly for Michael, even with him stepping up the timetable. Michael defeating Yahweh after a protracted battle and hearing a slow clap behind him, an amused Ehlmas behind him at the door or something. Nothing wrong with sending someone else in his armor, he at least had an inkling of how dangerous the humans were, nothing as much as Michael but would he really waltz out there and risk himself without knowing how effective they are in combat and knowing that they did succeed in killing Satan?

Hmm. That could work. I mean, Ehlmas may be a Bronze Ager, but the Patroclus gambit was already old before he took control of a carpenter from Bethlehem.

Finally, an odd question: I know that Hell was discovered because someone was coming back to Heaven and got lost (something that is an amusing metaphor when you think about it). Is Hell the only other UB 'bubble' known to exist to the relevant parties (i.e. the angels and demons; I exempt Yahweh and Satan from the discussion here because of the likelihood that they aren't going to be around to chat)? Or are there others that they know of (but that are unusable for whatever reason)?

Stas Bush's semicanonical fic Don't Wake Me When I'm Quiet, set in Hell after the events of Armageddon, makes references to Leviathan, a very powerful ocean-going creature that was discovered in a third UB bubble. So I'd guess that the answer is "yes." It's also possible that some of the servitor races ruled by Yahweh are in fact UB natives, but less powerful than angels, just as the orcs are UB natives less powerful than demons.

[GrayAnderson]

I'm just waiting for a plot twist somewhere. This has been going entirely too smoothly for Michael, even with him stepping up the timetable. Michael defeating Yahweh after a protracted battle and hearing a slow clap behind him, an amused Ehlmas behind him at the door or something. Nothing wrong with sending someone else in his armor, he at least had an inkling of how dangerous the humans were, nothing as much as Michael but would he really waltz out there and risk himself without knowing how effective they are in combat and knowing that they did succeed in killing Satan?

Hmm. That could work. I mean, Ehlmas may be a Bronze Ager, but the Patroclus gambit was already old before he took control of a carpenter from Bethlehem.

Finally, an odd question: I know that Hell was discovered because someone was coming back to Heaven and got lost (something that is an amusing metaphor when you think about it). Is Hell the only other UB 'bubble' known to exist to the relevant parties (i.e. the angels and demons; I exempt Yahweh and Satan from the discussion here because of the likelihood that they aren't going to be around to chat)? Or are there others that they know of (but that are unusable for whatever reason)?

Stas Bush's semicanonical fic Don't Wake Me When I'm Quiet, set in Hell after the events of Armageddon, makes references to Leviathan, a very powerful ocean-going creature that was discovered in a third UB bubble. So I'd guess that the answer is "yes." It's also possible that some of the servitor races ruled by Yahweh are in fact UB natives, but less powerful than angels, just as the orcs are UB natives less powerful than demons.

Interesting point on the Patroclus gambit. I do suspect he was where he was expected to be (if just due to the issue of finding a "stunt double") of the right size. With that said, you never know. The idea of him popping out seems to be plausible if he 'ran' rather than freezing.

And though I know the 'other UB locations' bit is obviously down the 'things to gather list' of the human commands, it'll still be interesting to see what happens when they ask (as I'm fairly certain the question of "So, what else do we have in this universe?" will come up, even if we're just for looking at possible threats...if you're placing a settlement somewhere, it always helps to look over the next hill).

[GenghisQuan]

Therefore if Satan was intelligent he would have sent more than just one berserker at a time and used them much more often.

No, if Satan was intelligent (by the standards of his time) he wouldn't do any such. Berserkers have to port near Nephilim. All they would do is create chaos among the civilians, which is pointless because it doesn't solve the problem of the army on your doorsetp. There were no dumb demons in this story, only demons who had insufficient data with which to create an ideal way of dealing with the humans.

...
At first blush this story seems about humans vs mythological/magical creatures. But it's really about rationalism versus magical thinking. And if Michael beats Yahweh, then it will be the triumph of his scientific approach to the problem of Angelic power versus Yahweh's immense power and (magical thinking) faith in self. And most of the critical conflicts are about that. And if Satan had been a little more willing to entertain facts that contradicted his worldview he might have survived or stalemated the humans a bit longer.

[edit]punctuation and spelling fixes[/edit]

Well, what proof does Satan have that his worldview is wrong? All he has to go on is hearsay from Abigor that humans somehow got powerful enough to curbstomp 60 legions of demons, which to even the smartest demon growing up in Hell, sounds hella absurd. It's just like if a Bronze Age peasant described a black triangular bird that passed overhead, shat out some rocks, and then caused everything to explode. Satan was definitely arrogant, but not an idiot.

Of course, I define intelligence by what someone could reasonably be able to assume based on the data they have. There are other perfectly valid defitions that go by how much knowledge someone had total, or by the results of what they do.

[Archaic`]

On the topic of Ehlmas taking over....I distinctly remember that the Pope excommunicated God...but not Jesus. Loophole, anyone?

[GrayAnderson]

On the topic of Ehlmas taking over....I distinctly remember that the Pope excommunicated God...but not Jesus. Loophole, anyone?

Well, it goes a step further: Jesus is still in good standing, period; Yahweh is just listed as 'not the deity we're looking for'.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Ahhh, thank you. Such things are unknown to me; I don't like cartoons and their ilk as a genre. I don't even like Tom and Jerry. So I know very little about them except for odd bits I've caught by accident

Couple vids for information purpose.

Macross OP
Macross II OP

I myself prefer Gundam for my mecha fixation. Nothing like an 18m robot doing a HALO jump out of a giant aircraft.

[Spekio]

Well, what proof does Satan have that his worldview is wrong? All he has to go on is hearsay from Abigor that humans somehow got powerful enough to curbstomp 60 legions of demons, which to even the smartest demon growing up in Hell, sounds hella absurd. It's just like if a Bronze Age peasant described a black triangular bird that passed overhead, shat out some rocks, and then caused everything to explode. Satan was definitely arrogant, but not an idiot.

Of course, I define intelligence by what someone could reasonably be able to assume based on the data they have. There are other perfectly valid defitions that go by how much knowledge someone had total, or by the results of what they do.

To further illustrate your point: That peasant doesn't understand the concept of "explosion". He would say a huge thunder followed by great fires, or something along these lines.

[GrayAnderson]

Well, what proof does Satan have that his worldview is wrong? All he has to go on is hearsay from Abigor that humans somehow got powerful enough to curbstomp 60 legions of demons, which to even the smartest demon growing up in Hell, sounds hella absurd. It's just like if a Bronze Age peasant described a black triangular bird that passed overhead, shat out some rocks, and then caused everything to explode. Satan was definitely arrogant, but not an idiot.

Of course, I define intelligence by what someone could reasonably be able to assume based on the data they have. There are other perfectly valid defitions that go by how much knowledge someone had total, or by the results of what they do.

To further illustrate your point: That peasant doesn't understand the concept of "explosion". He would say a huge thunder followed by great fires, or something along these lines.

I'm also reminded of the cargo cults in the South Pacific... one of which has the distinction of picking the most politically incorrect member of the British royal family to revere (Prince Philip).

[thegreatpl]

On the subject of other worlds, Havent we already established that there are other worlds in UA which were used by Yahweh before us, and the Devils have to come from somewhere, so why not another UB bubble. And were they not worried about randomly poking portals to find heaven because they might run into something they dont want? Surely that indicates that Humanity believes there are other UB worlds. Plus, there were once all those other religions mentioned, the ones that "lost" Earth, and from my understanding of portals (easier to punch from UB-UA, and UA-UB than UA-UA or UB-UB), it probably means they came from another UB bubble.

Of course, there have to be several other races in the multiverse. So far, i think we have:
+Devils; feared by demons.
+Genetic manipulators; From the description, i think the demons were genetic manipulated at some point after they split off (although i suppose it could have been mutations from radiation). Also must have had something to do with them modifying them and angels from humanity.
+Caesar's protectors; might be devils though.
+Orcs; but they seem to native to hell, although they could be from another UA world.
+Choir people; i think these guys might be from UA originally. Although they could be the original inhabitants of Heaven.
+What ever it is in UC; probably doesnt really matter what it is. Although i have to ask whether or not you can ask it certain things. I mean, if it is the one that is creating the 2nd life bodies, can you put in requests, like can you ask it not to send out anyone under the age of 3? or make people that young be able to grow older until they are something like 18? Yah-Yah and Satan had to have some way to control who gets which souls. Plus, does this act as some kind of Umpire when you are fighting over a planet to get the souls?
+Yahwehs race; do these guys even have a physical form? we have seen no mention of any description of Yahweh. Can you even see him, or just sense him.
+Other Pantheons? We heard mention of a fight over who got the planet before Roman times. Are these the same race as Yahweh? or others? or are some Yahweh's race and others different races?

[GrayAnderson]

On the subject of other worlds, Havent we already established that there are other worlds in UA which were used by Yahweh before us, and the Devils have to come from somewhere, so why not another UB bubble. And were they not worried about randomly poking portals to find heaven because they might run into something they dont want? Surely that indicates that Humanity believes there are other UB worlds. Plus, there were once all those other religions mentioned, the ones that "lost" Earth, and from my understanding of portals (easier to punch from UB-UA, and UA-UB than UA-UA or UB-UB), it probably means they came from another UB bubble.

Of course, there have to be several other races in the multiverse. So far, i think we have:
+Devils; feared by demons.
+Genetic manipulators; From the description, i think the demons were genetic manipulated at some point after they split off (although i suppose it could have been mutations from radiation). Also must have had something to do with them modifying them and angels from humanity.
+Caesar's protectors; might be devils though.
+Orcs; but they seem to native to hell, although they could be from another UA world.
+Choir people; i think these guys might be from UA originally. Although they could be the original inhabitants of Heaven.
+What ever it is in UC; probably doesnt really matter what it is. Although i have to ask whether or not you can ask it certain things. I mean, if it is the one that is creating the 2nd life bodies, can you put in requests, like can you ask it not to send out anyone under the age of 3? or make people that young be able to grow older until they are something like 18? Yah-Yah and Satan had to have some way to control who gets which souls. Plus, does this act as some kind of Umpire when you are fighting over a planet to get the souls?
+Yahwehs race; do these guys even have a physical form? we have seen no mention of any description of Yahweh. Can you even see him, or just sense him.
+Other Pantheons? We heard mention of a fight over who got the planet before Roman times. Are these the same race as Yahweh? or others? or are some Yahweh's race and others different races?

To go down the list of options you listed:
1) Yep. We don't know what they are at all.
2) There's a good question as to whether these might be Yahweh's race in some form; if Yahweh was able to engineer some of the "dead ends" in his temple, nothing's saying he didn't do a lot more with the angels and all.
3) Yeah, this is undisclosed as of yet. That's possible (and I'm pretty sure it's been discussed); another possibility is another member/members of Yahweh's race.
4) Could be from Hell, could be from elsewhere. Unknown.
5) We've been talking about that. Possibilities include pre-human hominids, other UA residents, and other UB residents.
6) The young also come through; they just ended up on the demonic lunch counter. Young humans do grow until adulthood once they come through.
7) It may or may not matter; someone is protecting Caesar. These might be other UB entities, or they might be UC entities. Basically, there's a big question mark floating around. Also, it's interesting from an out-of-story perspective.
See the latest chapter.
9) See above. Other pantheons could well be UC, other UB, Yahweh's race, an additional god-like race, and so on. We've got a blank here.

The main thing is that beings in UA can exist in UB but not UC. Beings from UC therefore can arguably exist in UB but not UA (not formally stated, but it's something that I threw out there before in a thought exercise, and it's not totally unreasonable). Beings from UB might be able to exist in both UA and UC as well. We can therefore argue that deities are likely "native" to UB (as I think I suggested at some point). Likewise, I've argued that the Second Life humans might well be "native" to UC (clearly, they came from there in some form).

So, to your point on devils, they may be either UB or UC, and the fact that they make demons nervous certainly suggests that UC is possible, though it is by no means conclusive.

[thegreatpl]

I didnt think UB could interact with UC. Sure, 2nd lifers might because they come from UC, but demons cant go there, I seem to remember there being a mention of that somewhere. So can UB beings go to UC at all? Can UC beings go to UB? I dont remember reading anywhere where Stuart says UC-UB interaction is possible. Communication i can believe in, as there has to be some way for Yah-yah and Satan to divvy up the souls, but actually going to each other; i dont know.

[Atlan]

I didnt think UB could interact with UC. Sure, 2nd lifers might because they come from UC, but demons cant go there, I seem to remember there being a mention of that somewhere. So can UB beings go to UC at all? Can UC beings go to UB? I dont remember reading anywhere where Stuart says UC-UB interaction is possible. Communication i can believe in, as there has to be some way for Yah-yah and Satan to divvy up the souls, but actually going to each other; i dont know.

The scariest thing to me is that UC might be including additional "programming" into all the bodies it's sending into UC, creating a huge dump of sleeper agents, in case UB/UA ever try anything daft, like "probing" the Minos Gate a bit too hard. There's really no way of knowing, and also, there is no way of knowing their motivation for recycling human souls. That alone is a scary item.