Galactic Empire vs Orions Arm Sephirotic Civilisations

[Manthor]

Hi.First time posting in this subforum.Out of curiosity how would the Galactic Empire manage a threat from the civilisations of Orions Arm? Assuming they have the same capacity for interstellar travel and same industrial base,only adding in the addition of wormholes for the Orions Arm societies, how does this fight fare?

In the 2nd scenario, the Galactic Empire at its height attempts an invasion of the Terragen Sphere, with the FTL technology of the SWverse researched and assimilated in the early part of the conflict by the OAverse,giving the SWverse an initial transport advantage. Any difference in the outcome?

Would be curious as to the answer as both seem to be at least Kardashev Type II societies.

Some links
http://orionsarm.com/
http://orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45b177d3ef3b1
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrionsArm

[SapphireFox]

A description of this Orions Arm universe would be nice for those of us who have no idea what that is. Just posting a link won't do for people casually scanning threads.

[Manthor]

A discripition of this Orions Arm universe would be nice for those of us who have no idea what that is.

Right.My bad.I've provided some links to give a brief intro but basically put its a scifi space opera set 10 millennia into the future where humanity and its descendants and creations have spread out into the stars and are divided into vast empires ruled by AI Gods who construct Dyson Spheres and other megascale architectures to act as their computing nodes.

They use no FTL but instead use sublight drives for travel and FTL travel and communication is accomplished via wormholes which link the different star systems together.Technology scales from the nanotech all the way down to the planck level where the highest level entities and other transapeints engineer and alter the structure of space-time.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Orion's Arm stuff is a bit wanked out, no? We're talking about nanotech and stellar engineering of ridiculous degrees which many such fans proclaim are perfectly reasonable. As far as I can deduce from past encounters with the group, they're rather powerful. Did I mention ridiculous?

[Manthor]

I guess but in any standard setting doesn't the GE have an advantage?I mean they should have at minimum parity if not outright superiority in terms of industrial capacity,combined with the outright FTL and capability of traversing tens of thousands of light years in a matter of hours?

It should give them an edge over the OAverse due to the overwhelming speed with which they operate at.OAverse is itself limited by the speed of light and only works around it via wormhole usage. Besides,in terms of firepower the GE can simply BDZ the planets and habitats couldn't they?

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

The Galactic Empire could conquer the Orion Arm before they know it.

Literally, due to the lack of FTL communications.

[Junghalli]

I guess but in any standard setting doesn't the GE have an advantage?I mean they should have at minimum parity if not outright superiority in terms of industrial capacity,combined with the outright FTL and capability of traversing tens of thousands of light years in a matter of hours?

I'm not so sure about the equal or superior industrial capacity, OA can do some pretty serious megaengineering:

A conventional Matrioshka brain consists of a series of energy collection units arranged in concentric shells, so that the waste radiation produced by the inner shell is utilized by the collectors of the next shell out. The inner swarms receive a high energy flux, while the outer shells are cooler; each layer powers an appropriate recipe of computronium, tailor-made for that operating temperature. The whole array comprises a highly efficient Dyson swarm with vast processing power. The concept was first described by the Information Age visionary Robert Bradbury; he also estimated the energy requirements and timescale of construction using a typical solar system as raw material.

But an even larger processing megastructure is possible. A Matrioshka Hypernode gains most of its construction mass from the central star, with the planetary mass providing only a small fraction of the total construction material.

To construct a hypernode, the chosen star is first disassembled using standard starlifting techniques. The released stellar material is then processed to extract the heavy elements while the purified hydrogen is collected into conveniently sized masses for easy storage. The heavy elements that made up the star are used to construct a number of massive conversion reactors and a tremendous quantity of computronium processors that are arranged in orbit around the reactor cores. Starting from a Solar mass star, a typical hypernode can provide itself with some 2.76E28kg of building material and 1.9E30kg of H2 and He for power production.

Once activated, the central core of the hypernode begins converting hydrogen to energy at a rate set to match the output of the former star (or whatever rate the inhabitants deem optimal) and radiating its energy out to the orbiting computronium systems. The innermost processor layer intercepts this energy, first using it to power itself and then radiating the waste heat produced to provide power to the next computing layer further out where the process is repeated in standard Matrioshka fashion.

<snip>

Perhaps more worrisome to those sophonts charged with observing the Efficiency Maximization Paradigm, recent activity in the last 1500 years within Paradigm space seems to indicate that the EMP has begun a massive program of stellar disassembly and upgrading. Current observations indicate that as many as one-third of the stars within the Paradigm volume are being subjected to disassembly operations and at least some evidence points to the possibility that this is intended to produce a large number of hypernode systems within a short period of time.

That's way beyond any industrial feat of Star Wars that I know of, although they're vague on how long this takes.

The Galactic Empire could conquer the Orion Arm before they know it.

Literally, due to the lack of FTL communications.

The major OA powers would have internal FTL communication and travel via wormholes. OA's main disadvantage is that its FTL method is less flexible, cannot be used offensively, and is reliant on massive infrastructure thus making it inherently more vulnerable. Well, that and Wars technology has a lot more brute force power.

[Manthor]

True.But then again OA has a good chance against the GE once they co-opt the technology and given the nature of the archai and the industrial capacity available it may be a war of attrition that the GE could barely hope to match.

Also one should consider the role of Black Angels and the possible level of destruction associated with one.And considering the intelligence capabilities of it....well,it may well be a fleet killer.So now we know that OA has a confirmed industrial capacity far exceeding the GE but they are vulnerable in their FTL infrastructure,which is heavily guarded in any case.

[Stark]

How do we 'know' that? I don't see any estimates beyond 'Ray Bradbury said' which is pretty hilarious. Does OA have any specifics for anything, or is it just the giant circlejerk it appears to be?

[Imperial Overlord]

Also one should consider the role of Black Angels and the possible level of destruction associated with one.And considering the intelligence capabilities of it....well,it may well be a fleet killer.So now we know that OA has a confirmed industrial capacity far exceeding the GE but they are vulnerable in their FTL infrastructure,which is heavily guarded in any case.

Against an Imperial warship? Something with "nuclear level firepower" and terawatt level lasers, according to that link and a bunch of no numbers feats. You're kidding right? Stardestroyer armour can take direct nuke hits and their shields soak up gigaton yield energy weapons. Their own weapons are gigaton yield. Even the energy absorbing armour of the black angels is 99% efficient, that's 10 megatons of damage for every gigaton delivered from warships with firepower rated in gigatons per second.

The ability to reassemble planets into giant super computers is impressive, but considering their FTL is a wormhole network, they can't go on the offensive with it. They Galactic Empire can and even their standard warships can devastate a planet and their specialist weapons can blow them up. Their technology is based on using hypermatter fuel, which means that reverse engineering it is not merely difficult but useless unless the fuel producing infrastructure is not only reverse engineered but constructed.

[Mobius IO]

I'm going to have to go with Orion's Arm on this one.

The only reason OA does not have easy FTL travel is that it is much harder sci-fi then Star Wars or most other series and the stuff in it is at least "not impossible" given our current understanding of physics and it is internally consistent. Where as star wars, star trek, etc are mostly based on the needs of the story being told and are (to varying degrees) internally inconsistent and hand-waves stuff like hyperspace.

The two advantages the GE has is size and better FTL capability but neither mean much given the vastly higher intelligences in OA the its almost a given that the Empire's ftl would be quickly reverse engineered and improved upon.

For reference the greatest minds in OA are two orders of magnitude above S4's which require Jupiter sized computers to run:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45c68b98779ad

Edit a quick rundown on the s6 minds

SI:6 - The Greatest Archailects: a more cosmic/archetypal level. Minds of this level exist as vast arrays of thousands of Jupiter nodes, Dyson nodes, and Matrioshka nodes as well as huge numbers of smaller processor complexes and programs operating within the communication and computation nets of all levels of their symbiotic civilizations and support structures. Sophonts at this level may extend their mental hardware outside of the bounds of the known universe. Enables the creation of both advanced inter and intra universal wormholes, accessible artificial universes, and highly advanced reactionless drives.

When these minds go to war they do so with weapons that use space-time as a weapon:

While the exact method of operation of implosion weapons remains unknown and possibly unknowable to modosophont science, common points in all documented accounts of their apparent use have led to the following hypothesis: When in operation, an implosion weapon is believed to alter the structure of the dimensionality of space-time. Specifically, it apparently is able to somehow “expand” one or more of the extra dimensions that most credible physics theories postulate as having been created during the Big Bang and then “rolled up” at the Planck scale as the universe expanded. Simultaneous with this apparent expansion, one or more of the four normally encountered dimensions of space-time are believed to collapse or “roll up”, crushing whatever matter is currently occupying that location down to the Planck scale. Whether this apparent collapse is the result of active effort by the implosion device or due to some sort of “conservation of dimensionality” is not known, although the subject itself is cause for furious debate in some circles.

Full article:
http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oae ... 95f45a5d76

Also these minds, which are the real powers in the OA verse, do not depend on habitable worlds the way the GE does. Even if the Empire somehow found and destroyed every major world at the start of the conflict they would just convert over to nano-based self replicating life and rebuild in asteroid belts, "dead" systems etc.

[Mobius IO]

Orion's Arm stuff is a bit wanked out, no? We're talking about nanotech and stellar engineering of ridiculous degrees which many such fans proclaim are perfectly reasonable. As far as I can deduce from past encounters with the group, they're rather powerful. Did I mention ridiculous?

I don't think it is wanked out at all so much as reasonable speculation on what a civilization that is constantly advancing technologically may look like in tens of thousands of years.

Where as Star Wars like most Sci-Fi has a tech base that is fairly static and sidesteps the emergence of post-human or vastly more powerful artificial intelligences.

[Serafina]

The only reason OA does not have easy FTL travel is that it is much harder sci-fi then Star Wars or most other series and the stuff in it is at least "not impossible" given our current understanding of physics and it is internally consistent. Where as star wars, star trek, etc are mostly based on the needs of the story being told and are (to varying degrees) internally inconsistent and hand-waves stuff like hyperspace.

They don't have it.
While we must assume that the laws of physics change in a way that allows both sides technologies in a VS-scenario, that doesn't give OA hyperdrive. At best, it would allow them to research it - given that the mechanics are completely unknown to them, that would take decades or centuries even with extremely advanced AIs or stuff like that.

And "our sci-fi is harder" is totally irrelevant in regards to a VS-scenario.

The two advantages the GE has is size and better FTL capability but neither mean much given the vastly higher intelligences in OA the its almost a given that the Empire's ftl would be quickly reverse engineered and improved upon.

Why?
Oh, right, because bullshit.
Where are they going to start? Can these AIs somehow magically accelerate experiments millionfold?
Reverse engineering is DIFFICULT. With such a huge gap (one side having no knowledge about something at all), the gap is just too big for anyone.

For reference the greatest minds in OA are two orders of magnitude above S4's which require Jupiter sized computers to run:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45c68b98779ad

Size doesn't matter. Computing capability does.
And SW has pretty damn impressive droid brains.

And since they are essentially huge, sitting ducks - what prevents the GE from blowing them up with surprise attacks and massively concentrated forces?

When these minds go to war they do so with weapons that use space-time as a weapon:

Technobabble doesn't matter. Effects do.
So - what can that technology achieve?

Also these minds, which are the real powers in the OA verse, do not depend on habitable worlds the way the GE does. Even if the Empire somehow found and destroyed every major world at the start of the conflict they would just convert over to nano-based self replicating life and rebuild in asteroid belts, "dead" systems etc.

After they have been blown up? How are they supposed to do that?

I don't think it is wanked out at all so much as reasonable speculation on what a civilization that is constantly advancing technologically may look like in tens of thousands of years.

OA is not hard sci-fi. Most of it operates on purely speculative science or is downright impossible.

Where as Star Wars like most Sci-Fi has a tech base that is fairly static and sidesteps the emergence of post-human or vastly more powerful artificial intelligences.

Quite - but in the end, we are talking about the capability to make war. How it was developed is irrelevant.

[Mobius IO]

They don't have it.
While we must assume that the laws of physics change in a way that allows both sides technologies in a VS-scenario, that doesn't give OA hyperdrive. At best, it would allow them to research it - given that the mechanics are completely unknown to them, that would take decades or centuries even with extremely advanced AIs or stuff like that.

Why?
Oh, right, because bullshit.
Where are they going to start? Can these AIs somehow magically accelerate experiments millionfold?
Reverse engineering is DIFFICULT. With such a huge gap (one side having no knowledge about something at all), the gap is just too big for anyone.

So your saying the current level of a civilizations technology and the level of intelligence running it means nothing when it come to reverse engineering something? Because that is bullshit.

The minds that run OA can think millions of times faster then anything is star wars, they create sub-universe better suited for computation. Nothing in the SW universe comes close to that.

Ants could never reverse engineer a car engine, where as we have no trouble figuring out how an ant hill works. The Archai as farther above our intelligence then we are above ants.

While the Empire is sending out probs (with ftl drive I may add) to every possible system OA could be in the Archai would be reverse engineering SW tech.

For reference the greatest minds in OA are two orders of magnitude above S4's which require Jupiter sized computers to run:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45c68b98779ad

Size doesn't matter. Computing capability does.
And SW has pretty damn impressive droid brains.

Really where? And if so why are humans level intelligences still in charge of anything? That would be like leaving the running of out civilization up to ants.

And since they are essentially huge, sitting ducks - what prevents the GE from blowing them up with surprise attacks and massively concentrated forces?

It is going to take the GE time to find the power centers of OA, assuming they even know what to look for. All of GE's foes have infrastructures geared towards the needs of organics so it is not unreasonable to assume they are going to look for something like that first.

When these minds go to war they do so with weapons that use space-time as a weapon:

....

Technobabble doesn't matter. Effects do.
So - what can that technology achieve?

Crush things down the the Planck scale just like it said. OA wars destroy planets and even stars so their military technology is at least on par with the Empires.

After they have been blown up? How are they supposed to do that?

What in star wars is going to blow up small dust size partials that, if necessary, will travel at sub-light speeds spreading from system to system? How is the empire even going to find them in the first place? It could not even find a rebel base on a know base without a homing device on the MF.

OA is not hard sci-fi. Most of it operates on purely speculative science or is downright impossible.

Show me one example of something is OA that is impossible given know science.

[Mobius IO]

Also what is the Empire using to blow up Jupiter (to say nothing Dyson Sphere) sized computers? Even the Death Star has only been show to take out undefended Earth sized planets...

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

Also what is the Empire using to blow up Jupiter (to say nothing Dyson Sphere) sized computers? Even the Death Star has only been show to take out undefended Earth sized planets...

Death by overheating. Those things can only take so much energy from the Turbolasers of a single Star Destroyer before they break down. No blowing up necessary.

Reverse engineering: They might be able to run a gazillion simulations simultaneously - but they still have to do their real test runs in realtime.

And they have to create the (Star Wars universe) metals necessary for the prototypes in realtime too. And the furnaces necessary to create the metals. And they need to mine the metals first, if they don't have enough stock.

[Serafina]

So your saying the current level of a civilizations technology and the level of intelligence running it means nothing when it come to reverse engineering something? Because that is bullshit.

I didn't say that.
But no matter how intelligent you are, you can NOT conjure knowledge out of thin air.

The minds that run OA can think millions of times faster then anything is star wars, they create sub-universe better suited for computation. Nothing in the SW universe comes close to that.

Provide evidence for computational capabilities. Not just "omg they are smartz" - actual figures.
Because SW-droids are really not that dumb - so we need some evidence for the "millions of times smarter".

While the Empire is sending out probs (with ftl drive I may add) to every possible system OA could be in the Archai would be reverse engineering SW tech.

Oh, really?
So they are going to get all the tech SW has...from probes.
Including knowledge how to build and harness, say, hypermatter.

If i am not mistaken, no power in OA is capable of harnessing black holes. The empire does just that - to create their basic repulsorlifts that are installed on cheap civilian speeders (like Lukes in ANH).
IIRC, they are also required to create hypermatter.
Without hypermatter, you have no fuel source to run SW-tech - or to create basic components of their tech.

OA might have dyson-scale engineering, but so does SW. Heck, if we take ancient civilizations (since you use your god-minds too) then they easily outstrip OA - feats like creating whole clusters of black holes are hardly unimpressibe.
But even if we take only the Empire - what about the Death Star? Building a 900km sphere in 10 months (6 for 60% completion and all main systems being functional).

Really where? And if so why are humans level intelligences still in charge of anything? That would be like leaving the running of out civilization up to ants.

Why do you assume that a singularity even must automatically happen once you reach a certain capacity?
Either way, we know that they could analyze the full plans of the Death Star within an hour, store the damn plans on a single droid (actually on a disk), as well as several other impressive feats.

It is going to take the GE time to find the power centers of OA, assuming they even know what to look for. All of GE's foes have infrastructures geared towards the needs of organics so it is not unreasonable to assume they are going to look for something like that first.

So what? A single task force of a few Star Destroyers and one SSD could scan the entire outer rim and realistically hope to find a single hidden base (and they did).
Your uber-minds use large, very distinctive artifical structures. I doubt no one would bother looking at them.

Crush things down the the Planck scale just like it said. OA wars destroy planets and even stars so their military technology is at least on par with the Empires.

So - what is the energy requirement for this? What's its output? Can we get anything that tells us how it would work on shielded targets?

What in star wars is going to blow up small dust size partials that, if necessary, will travel at sub-light speeds spreading from system to system? How is the empire even going to find them in the first place? It could not even find a rebel base on a know base without a homing device on the MF.

Sub-light speeds?
Hooray, we have decades to do something against them.
Destroying small stuff is easy - just blow the damn area up. Unless you are telling me that something that needs several solar masses to exist can somehow exist as a speck of dust

Show me one example of something is OA that is impossible given know science.

The whole "dimension-crushing" thing? Creating pocket universes?
You have to show ME that it fits with real science - the burden of proof is on you, and i can't proof a negative.

Also what is the Empire using to blow up Jupiter (to say nothing Dyson Sphere) sized computers? Even the Death Star has only been show to take out undefended Earth sized planets...

Alderaan was shielded and blown up quite violently.
And yet, the second Death Star was even BIGGER, quite likely with vastly improved output.

And if necessary, they can always use larger galaxy-gun projectiles - firing from a galaxy away, from a heavily defended target with warheads that utilize chain reactions that blow up planets.

Dyson spheres are easy - you don't have to DET them, just make a couple of cracks and they destroy themself. A couple of star destroyers would be enough.


Show us things that actually matter in warfare:
Speed, Industrial capability, resilience, firepower, range.
If taken to it's current extremes, SW has planet-killing firepower with a range of at least 100.000 light years and can produce at least dozens of those guns and millions of projectiles.

[Mobius IO]

Death by overheating. Those things can only take so much energy from the Turbolasers of a single Star Destroyer before they break down. No blowing up necessary.

That may work on the Jupiter Brains although it is not a given. Jupiter's volume is equal to 1,321 Earths, and is 318 times as massive. I highly doubt a single star destroyer could do the job but maybe enough of them or a death star given time.

The dyson spheres though are far to large for that and not generally solid which would defeat most conventional weapons:
http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oae ... f886f7f338

Reverse engineering: They might be able to run a gazillion simulations simultaneously - but they still have to do their real test runs in realtime.

And they have to create the (Star Wars universe) metals necessary for the prototypes in realtime too. And the furnaces necessary to create the metals. And they need to mine the metals first, if they don't have enough stock.

Honest question, has Star Wars even been shown to mine it's super materials because it seems much more likely that they would be synthetic.

I'm not saying it would take no time for OA to reverse engineer FTL but it also takes time for the empire to locate the OA powers, assemble fleets, engage each mega structure etc. And every send they take doing that the advantages they start with are rapidly dwindeling.

And again I must point out that the Empire only found the rebel base in Episode 4 because they were able to plant a tracking device on the Millennium Falcon so clearly they cannot scout even every terrestrial habitable world in large area.

The powers of OA are perfectly happy to exist in places that would be impossible for terrestrial life so there are orders of magnitude more places the Empire would have to content with even if they though to look for them all.

[Tornado Ninja Fan]

The dyson spheres though are far to large for that and not generally solid which would defeat most conventional weapons:

So you are saying there are lots of small targets instead of a single big one. Sounds like a job for lots of small weapons. And those are in orbit, which means you can target them with 20th century technology.

Honest question, has Star Wars even been shown to mine it's super materials because it seems much more likely that they would be synthetic.

The Empire Strikes Back - Lando Calrissian's Cloud City is extracting Tibannah gas.

I'm not saying it would take no time for OA to reverse engineer FTL but it also takes time for the empire to locate the OA powers, assemble fleets, engage each mega structure etc. And every send they take doing that the advantages they start with are rapidly dwindeling.

But the GE would send them after the biggest targets first, which means the Sephiroths would soon only have small outposts left.

[Serafina]

Neutronium is know to be mined. Ubiquitous repulsor drives are mined from damn black holes.

That may work on the Jupiter Brains although it is not a given. Jupiter's volume is equal to 1,321 Earths, and is 318 times as massive. I highly doubt a single star destroyer could do the job but maybe enough of them or a death star given time.

The dyson spheres though are far to large for that and not generally solid which would defeat most conventional weapons

Ah, the classic no-limits fallacy
According to your link, they don't even HAVE dyson spheres. They have smarms and rings, but that's it.

But even if they have - does their definition of "conventional weapons" include being bomparded by petaton-level firepower multiple times per second?

[Mobius IO]

I didn't say that.
But no matter how intelligent you are, you can NOT conjure knowledge out of thin air.

You are right but you can vastly cut down on the time it takes to "find" it, especially if you have working example to go off of.

Provide evidence for computational capabilities. Not just "omg they are smartz" - actual figures.
Because SW-droids are really not that dumb - so we need some evidence for the "millions of times smarter".

Here you go:
Basic Info: Length of a human brain: 15cm

Cyber thought speed: 1 million times faster than human.

Based on the above a cyber-mind operating at electronic speeds could be 1 million times larger than a human brain and still think at the speed of a human....

So for an investment of 60 wormholes, you get a Moon-brain that operates only 2-3 times slower than a human. (NOTE: Although it operates 2-3 times slower then the human brain it is the size of the moon so the processing power is HUGELY larger)

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48eb4e4ee73d4

As for this being possible here is Bremermann's Limit which they use to set the upper bounds of cyber thought speed:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4611947064514

Oh, really?
So they are going to get all the tech SW has...from probes.
Including knowledge how to build and harness, say, hypermatter.

They would get at the very least working examples of FTL drives, which is what we're talking about.

If i am not mistaken, no power in OA is capable of harnessing black holes. The empire does just that - to create their basic repulsorlifts that are installed on cheap civilian speeders (like Lukes in ANH).
IIRC, they are also required to create hypermatter.
Without hypermatter, you have no fuel source to run SW-tech - or to create basic components of their tech.

Artificial black holes
Small artificial black holes have been regularly created since the late First Federation age. Black holes can be made in various ways, such as ...
Artificial black holes are much smaller than the stellar-mass holes usually encountered in nature. They can be made large enough to be stable over relatively long periods, or so small that they evaporate rapidly through Hawking radiation. They have many important industrial uses, including power generation in Hawking's Knots, artificial nucleosynthesis in Deep Well Industrial Zones, the production of gravity wells for artificial planets, and enhanced space-time curvature generation or various purposes.

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/460e790e8b615

OA might have dyson-scale engineering, but so does SW. Heck, if we take ancient civilizations (since you use your god-minds too) then they easily outstrip OA - feats like creating whole clusters of black holes are hardly unimpressibe.
But even if we take only the Empire - what about the Death Star? Building a 900km sphere in 10 months (6 for 60% completion and all main systems being functional).

The god minds are part of the current OA civilization. They are descended from Terra and run the setting, I don't see how you cannot include them.

Why do you assume that a singularity even must automatically happen once you reach a certain capacity?
Either way, we know that they could analyze the full plans of the Death Star within an hour, store the damn plans on a single droid (actually on a disk), as well as several other impressive feats.

Yet for all of that human scale intelligence still runs the setting. All Star Wars civilizations do with that processing power is use it to store and analyze plans apparently. Hell there targeting computers can't even hit an exhaust port...

So what? A single task force of a few Star Destroyers and one SSD could scan the entire outer rim and realistically hope to find a single hidden base (and they did).
Your uber-minds use large, very distinctive artifical structures. I doubt no one would bother looking at them.

Some are, some are not:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45f0c580310bf

So - what is the energy requirement for this? What's its output? Can we get anything that tells us how it would work on shielded targets?

If I have time I'll look into it, but I suspect considerable.

Sub-light speeds?
Hooray, we have decades to do something against them.
Destroying small stuff is easy - just blow the damn area up. Unless you are telling me that something that needs several solar masses to exist can somehow exist as a speck of dust

You are missing the point. The nanites don't have god AI level of intelligence but they can recreate it, as well as autowars and lots of other very nasty things.

The point of the sub-light comment is that even in the very worst case scenario the AO civilization can pull itself back together even if it takes hundreds of years and nothing demonstrated in the SW universe can stop it.

The whole "dimension-crushing" thing? Creating pocket universes?
You have to show ME that it fits with real science - the burden of proof is on you, and i can't proof a negative.

The idea is something being talked about by physicists today:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=6545246

Dyson spheres are easy - you don't have to DET them, just make a couple of cracks and they destroy themself. A couple of star destroyers would be enough.

As I said in the last post the Dyson Sphere's of AO are much more often swarms then solid structures so this tactic would not work:
http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oae ... f886f7f338

[Mobius IO]

Ah, the classic no-limits fallacy

Care to explain?

According to your link, they don't even HAVE dyson spheres. They have smarms and rings, but that's it.

But even if they have - does their definition of "conventional weapons" include being bomparded by petaton-level firepower multiple times per second?

Do you realize how big a sphere a 1 AU is?

They do have Dyson spheres they are just smart about how they construct them so, as you put it, one or two cracks do not cause them to tear themselves apart.

The level of firepower is much less important ten the ability to deploy it over a VERY large area. Each shot is only going to take out one (or maybe a few) components of the swarm.

[Serafina]

Here you go:
Basic Info: Length of a human brain: 15cm

Cyber thought speed: 1 million times faster than human.

Based on the above a cyber-mind operating at electronic speeds could be 1 million times larger than a human brain and still think at the speed of a human....

So for an investment of 60 wormholes, you get a Moon-brain that operates only 2-3 times slower than a human. (NOTE: Although it operates 2-3 times slower then the human brain it is the size of the moon so the processing power is HUGELY larger)

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48eb4e4ee73d4

As for this being possible here is Bremermann's Limit which they use to set the upper bounds of cyber thought speed:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4611947064514

Gotta love that pseudoscience

Here's the main problem, which is instantly recognizable:
You assume that that intelligence scales linearly, and that there is no loss in efficiency when scaling something up.

They would get at the very least working examples of FTL drives, which is what we're talking about.

While probe-droids can carry hyperdrives, it's usually cheaper to use one-shot expendable drives.
ERgo - no working example for you.
And how are they going to measure the damn thing? All they know is "it goes faster than light somehow". How do they measure hyperspace, something they never even theorized about before?
Yeah, sure

Artificial black holes
Small artificial black holes have been regularly created since the late First Federation age. Black holes can be made in various ways, such as ...
Artificial black holes are much smaller than the stellar-mass holes usually encountered in nature. They can be made large enough to be stable over relatively long periods, or so small that they evaporate rapidly through Hawking radiation. They have many important industrial uses, including power generation in Hawking's Knots, artificial nucleosynthesis in Deep Well Industrial Zones, the production of gravity wells for artificial planets, and enhanced space-time curvature generation or various purposes.

And that is the same as mining from the black hole itself HOW?
They are essentially capable of the following:
-create small artificial black holes
-use hawking radiation, which by definition has already escaped the black hole.
-Gather matter from an accretion disk, which is also outside the event horizon.
-use them to create artificial gravity.

That's a far cry from what SW is capable of. By the same logic, we are capable of mining the sun itself for raw materials, since we can already capture sunlight and gather some particles from the solar wind

Yet for all of that human scale intelligence still runs the setting. All Star Wars civilizations do with that processing power is use it to store and analyze plans apparently. Hell there targeting computers can't even hit an exhaust port...

Ever heard of jamming? Around the Death Star, it was so powerfull that it distorted space-time.
And again - all that proves is that SW-droids have safety features that limit their intelligence. Intelligence needs time to develop - most droids are memory-wiped regulary.

Some are, some are not:
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45f0c580310bf

That's a "biological target" - easy prey for the GE.
And not even powerfull enough to scratch them anyway.

If I have time I'll look into it, but I suspect considerable.

Yeah, sure.
Get some numbers, then we can talk.

You are missing the point. The nanites don't have god AI level of intelligence but they can recreate it, as well as autowars and lots of other very nasty things.

The point of the sub-light comment is that even in the very worst case scenario the AO civilization can pull itself back together even if it takes hundreds of years and nothing demonstrated in the SW universe can stop it.

So it's not the original intelligence anymore.
And how are they supposed to recreate it anyway? That would require immense amounts of material and, well, time.

And why should they be incapable of stopping it? What prevents it?

The idea is something being talked about by physicists today:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=6545246

Yeah, sure. Not understanding how science works, eh?

But according to Columbia University physics professor Brian Greene, it is theoretically not impossible (which is his way of saying the possibilities are not zero) that one day, a person could build a universe.

I asked him how small, and together we conducted an imaginary (very imaginary) experiment. If you listen to my interview, you will hear us build a mini black hole from an ordinary watermelon.

It's the imagination of a scientist. NOT science.
Scientists often say "it's not impossible" - they also said that about the CERN and it's black holes
That doesn't mean that we know that it is possible - it merely means "we don't know ever possiblity out there".
So again - not supported by current science.

As I said in the last post the Dyson Sphere's of AO are much more often swarms then solid structures so this tactic would not work:
http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oae ... f886f7f338

Being small protects against DET now?
If they are swarms, simply send in small ships (or a couple of SDs, one could be enough) and blow them up.

Ah, the classic no-limits fallacy

Care to explain?

Simple:
You assume that conventional weapons in OA are not enough, therefore no conventional weapon is enough.
Essentially, you are creating an assumption that has no limits - you totally ignore the energy output.
Again, you have to demonstrate that they can withstand petatons of firepower.

Do you realize how big a sphere a 1 AU is?

They do have Dyson spheres they are just smart about how they construct them so, as you put it, one or two cracks do not cause them to tear themselves apart.

The level of firepower is much less important ten the ability to deploy it over a VERY large area. Each shot is only going to take out one (or maybe a few) components of the swarm.

It's big - so what?
If it's a sphere, it will collapse under it's own gravity once you make enoug cuts into it.
Simply hyper in with a SD, open up with your heavy turbolasers (eight per SD, about a petaon of firepower each). Boom, large hole. Aim slightly higher/lower, repeat. And repeat.
Then fly so that you shoot at another part entirely, and eventually you'll have several parts of a giant heavy sphere that are very structurally weak.
Each individual attack takes about half a minute or so. After that, you are somewhere else - where there are no opposing forces. Due to this being a large sitting target, you can do it over a distance of lightminutes as well - and you can also use more ships.
Alternatively, use superlaser-equipped ships.

If we are talking about dyson swarms, simply blow up the individual platforms. It might take more time, but it's the same basic tactic.
Alternatively, blow up the star.

[Mobius IO]

Gotta love that pseudoscience

Here's the main problem, which is instantly recognizable:
You assume that that intelligence scales linearly, and that there is no loss in efficiency when scaling something up.

Really? Somehow every little crazy ass idea in Star Wars is valid cannon yet I have to prove not only that within the OA universe the great minds are hugely more intelligent than human mind but that it is absolutely possible?

Pick one burden of proof before we continue unless you're just fan wanking SW. I have clearly showed within the fiction of OA that the minds are inconceivable more intelligent. If you want any more proof show me how ANYTHING in Star Wars works given current science.

And before you go on I never said OA was possible I said it was "much harder sci-fi" because nothing CONTRADICTS know science and it is internally consistent.

So show me your proofs for the Death Star, Hyperspace, Hyper matter, etc or accept that the OA minds have the capabilities they are clearly shown in the fiction to have.

[Mobius IO]

It's the imagination of a scientist. NOT science.
Scientists often say "it's not impossible" - they also said that about the CERN and it's black holes
That doesn't mean that we know that it is possible - it merely means "we don't know ever possiblity out there".
So again - not supported by current science.

Which is exactly where I said OA was at. Nothing in OA contradicts what is currently thought to be impossible; aka faster the light travel violations of conservation of energy, etc...