What are the good space games to be had?

[JointStrikeFighter]

Freelancer

[PeZook]

Orbiter isn't quite the kind of game Shadowdragon was describing. It's...slow. Very, very slow. You'd see the sort of space combat that plays out as "calculate targetting solution, press button, wait three weeks". If I was to use an analogy, it's the Flight Simulator 2010 of the space game genre: more about exploration, operating the spacecraft and doing cool things with orbits, rather than blasting away aliens.

Of course, flying to orbit in a 500 tonne scramjet SSTO plane is still fun, but in a different sort of way

[Sarevok]

Freelancer

Surely you mean Freelancer+<insert mod of your choice> ? Because vanilla Freelancer is terrible. You could face two enemy factions engaged in a fleet battle and suddenly they will stop fighting and all gang up on you. Oh and none of the AI ships have recharging shields like you do. The vanilla game is broken so badly it is useless outside of online play. And I doubt you could play online easily anymore given the global server is gone.

[Nephtys]

It's a bit rough. This general genre really died around the end of the golden age of PC games (2001ish). I suppose the last good offering was Homeworld 2.

Freelancer is not a good game. It and Darkstar One are both entirely forgettable, if not only for how Freelancer's inane campaign is absolutely awful. It had some novel multiplayer ideas like being a little mini persistant MMO, but the lag is just plain too nasty even on the fastest private servers to have dogfighting ever do anything. The storyline makes no sense too, and the ships don't scale by 'realism', but by 'level'. So it ends up all the American Ships are utter garbage compared to Space Japan, which are garbage compared to Space England, who are garbage vs Space Germans... etc.

I'm actually rather shocked at complaints of Freespace 2's graphics. Really? We're bloody talking about Wing Commanders, Tie Fighter, and SEV for crying out loud. FS2 looks gorgeous compared to practically every game that's been mentioned so far, and the new FS2:O is further improved. The reason the enemy seems easy at times (and will GUT you at others), is that the enemy does not single out the player specifically. The instant you find yourself without wingmates on a harder difficulty, you're going to be trying to dodge macross-style missile swarms from multiple directions.

Hrm. There I suppose is also that cute top-down game, Space Rangers 2. Silly eastern europeans. It's a bit of a goofy game that's alright, if not for the inane (thankfully skippable) ground combat mode. Also, OH NO PIRATE SHIP HATFUCK. LET US LISTEN TO OUR FAVORITE SONG. translation.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

Im kinda surprised that no one mentioned Independence War.

[Stark]

Stupid Freelancer.

And people mentioned IWar already.

Its sad when shit like HW2 can be looked at as the last good game though.

[CaptHawkeye]

The last *good* space sim I played was Tachyon back in 2000. I never picked up Freelancer back when I should have though.

Tachyon was kind of interesting though. It wasn't really a space sim as much as it was a space shooter. But at least it had a lot of attention to detail and had a cool narrative. It was the first space sim I ever played where things like inertia and lack of friction in space were not only modeled, but encouraged for use in combat.

Recently I bought X3. Under no circumstances should you approach it though. It sucks soooooo much. The game is just a big spreadsheet with simplistic modeling and design. The way is game is built it doesn't even really *want* you to play it. It wants to play itself and have you watch. Fuck Egosoft.

[ShadowDragon8685]

The last *good* space sim I played was Tachyon back in 2000. I never picked up Freelancer back when I should have though.

Tachyon was kind of interesting though. It wasn't really a space sim as much as it was a space shooter. But at least it had a lot of attention to detail and had a cool narrative. It was the first space sim I ever played where things like inertia and lack of friction in space were not only modeled, but encouraged for use in combat.

Recently I bought X3. Under no circumstances should you approach it though. It sucks soooooo much. The game is just a big spreadsheet with simplistic modeling and design. The way is game is built it doesn't even really *want* you to play it. It wants to play itself and have you watch. Fuck Egosoft.

I have Tachyon. It's okay, I suppose. Bruce Campbell voice acted the main character, which is cool - it's fun hearing him flip a lid when he realizes that the object d'art that he's protecting in one mission is the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel, just floating out in space. It really bugs me, though, that to get the kind of starfighters/missiles I like (because dumbfire in 3d sucks) you have to (a) side with the rotten evil badguys, or (b) cheat. If you cheat, though, Bruce Campbell mocks you for being a cheater, which is kind of awesome.

I have X3: The Reunion. I concurred with your assessment, way back in the OP. I feel the need to reaffirm that concurrance, though; that game is seriously godawful. It's not so much a space shooter as it is a space economics modeling game with a shooter bolted on. The missions such sooo hardcore, but free-flying and getting into fights is so much worse.

[Serafina]

X3 could be a decent game if they
-actually added a decent interface for the economy, especially late-game factory building
-made capitals not being god-awfull (especially carriers)
-made the AI better

But yeah, in it's current state it's only fun if you want to try out your options - and if you do, you'll mostly be disappointed.

[Stark]

You mean, made it EVE? I'm really curious how large the market of 'want to play econ spreadsheet but too cowardly to play EVE' market really is.

[ShadowDragon8685]

X3 could be a decent game if they
-actually added a decent interface for the economy, especially late-game factory building
-made capitals not being god-awfull (especially carriers)
-made the AI better

But yeah, in it's current state it's only fun if you want to try out your options - and if you do, you'll mostly be disappointed.

-Add to that getting someone who knows what the frell he's doing to direct a revamp of the godawful facial animation crap and voice acting.
-And made player-owned capitol ships feel like capitol ships, and not a gigantic starfighter that moves like a stoned-out ballerina with an elephant strapped to her back. (Though this probably falls under your point 2. But I felt it was such an egregious point it needed to be reinforced.)

You mean, made it EVE? I'm really curious how large the market of 'want to play econ spreadsheet but too cowardly to play EVE' market really is.

It's not that we want to play an econ spreadsheet, it's that we want to fly a ship and build an empire with it. With EvE, of course, the problem exists that you're getting an RP-element-free aggressive lolbertarian free-for-all. In no other MMORPG that I am aware of would the Great EvE Heists have been tolerated. The players involved would have been banned, their accounts terminated, and their stolen loot returned.

Whereas in EvE, not only does CCP support and condone such actions, they actually protect the fraudsters and hucksters from retaliation by taking action against the aggrevied guild if the guild abuses the fact that a player cannot quit his corporation within some peroid of time of being promoted or having his rank changed by preventing him from leaving the guild so they can hunt him down wherever he is.

No wonder lowsec is full of people who behave very much like the stereotype of the American wilderness lunatic cult; clutching guns and shooting at anyone and everyone first, asking questions never. I lost interest (the second time; the first time I quit because college was getting too hectic) after my guild convinced me to come out to their lowsec areas and I was coerced (at gunpoint) into blowing up some poor noob asshole who'd blundered into lowsec by one of the guys. (I was flying a frigate, the other guy had his twinked-out PvP destroyer, jammed the other guy so bad he couldn't hit shit, and told me that if I didn't blow the other guy he'd pod me.)

It's a shame, really. EvE seemed like a modern incarnation of EnB, but the complete dearth of roleplaying material, the paucity of roleplayers, and the fact that everything is ridiculously PvP oriented makes me a sad, sad Shadow.

[Losonti Tokash]

Hilarious. Stuff like that is why you quit, but at the same time is the sort of thing that makes me wish I could resub. The fact that the only thing stopping you from being totally ruined by other players is your own intelligence instead of carebear GMs is one of the most appealing features, at least to me.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I have Tachyon. It's okay, I suppose. Bruce Campbell voice acted the main character, which is cool - it's fun hearing him flip a lid when he realizes that the object d'art that he's protecting in one mission is the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel, just floating out in space. It really bugs me, though, that to get the kind of starfighters/missiles I like (because dumbfire in 3d sucks) you have to (a) side with the rotten evil badguys, or (b) cheat. If you cheat, though, Bruce Campbell mocks you for being a cheater, which is kind of awesome.

Oh, Tachyon. I have that game and I played it through twice, but I didn't remember it before it was mentioned. Despite the Bruce Campbell fun factor, it's a pretty hum ho game. It is actually slightly more like a "real" simulation than the WC, FS or X-Wing series games just for the reasons CaptHawkeye mentioned, but still much less than either I-War game. Worth playing, if not for anything else than just for laughs, but it's not a classic like Freespace 2 or I-War. I personally like I-War 2 more than FS2 or the original I-War, but that's just IMNSHO

[ShadowDragon8685]

Hilarious. Stuff like that is why you quit, but at the same time is the sort of thing that makes me wish I could resub. The fact that the only thing stopping you from being totally ruined by other players is your own intelligence instead of carebear GMs is one of the most appealing features, at least to me.

You're welcome to it.

Me, I had enough of "being totally ruined by other players" back in UO in the way early days, when I'd get PK'd and all my stuff stolen.

Give me a carebear game any day. Something fluffy and cuddly and huggable and wuvvable.

[Stark]

Not enough RP? are you crazy? Even if you're not pretending to be a homosexual Gallent poet everything you do is in your role as a space whatever. It's roleplayingbthroufh actual actions rather than horseshit chat crap (which the game certainly has).

It's just a boring game that needs a lot of tome, and I can't be fucked. It's pretty sad that people think saying 'it's hard' is a criticism; that's the only reason there's any sense of achievement.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Not enough RP? are you crazy? Even if you're not pretending to be a homosexual Gallent poet everything you do is in your role as a space whatever. It's roleplayingbthroufh actual actions rather than horseshit chat crap (which the game certainly has).

Just like everything your average raider in WoW does it their roleplaying, right?

It's just a boring game that needs a lot of tome, and I can't be fucked. It's pretty sad that people think saying 'it's hard' is a criticism; that's the only reason there's any sense of achievement.

Untrue. Some people play MMORPGs for things other than numerical challenges. Me, for instance.

I like MMORPGs for the roleplaying and other social interaction. I like them for the opportunity to erect something and make it spectacular. I like just flying around (literally in some cases) and seeing the sights. I like PvE, but high-end PvE is far too much of a hamster wheel; as you approach the high end, the amount of effort put into getting a very miniscule amount of reward gets to be very, very high. And of course, the difficulty eventually passes a point with which I am comfortable; as a rule of thumb, anything requiring voice communications for fast-enough responses to the action is past my comfort zone. I don't particularly care for voice communications.


Frankly, all of this is making me ask myself why I don't reinstall SWG. It was perfect. If you wanted to, you could completely skip the fight and the grind by being an Entertainer, setting up a macro to level you up to 99 overnight, earning money by dancing in a cantina, using it to buy starships, and getting your combat jollies in space. You could build houses, decorate them to an extremely high degree of complexity as you saw fit with just about everything in the game having at least a semi-unique overworld model instead of just being a sprite in your backpack... The degree of character customization available was absolutely extreme...

Man. Now I really miss that game. Why did I even quit in the first place? I don't even remember!

[Stark]

You can do all that shit in eve, most of it in highsec. I usually don't get in for carebear bashing, but you seem to be saying you hate any interaction that you dont control, which is pretty pussy, and you're even scared of voice comms! The game you want is Sims:space! Lol

[ShadowDragon8685]

You can do all that shit in eve, most of it in highsec. I usually don't get in for carebear bashing, but you seem to be saying you hate any interaction that you dont control

When it's hostile interaction, yes. It's one thing to know what yo're getting into and consent to PvP - such as in WoW, going into the PvP arenas (I don't) or other games wherein you set a flag (I don't, unless I'm looking for a fight.) In EvE, the old saying is "all PvP in EvE is consentual. Consent is implied when you undock."

which is pretty pussy, and you're even scared of voice comms!

I am not scared of voice comms, my computer generally does not handle them well. Furthermore, I tend to roleplay female characters, and it breaks that roleplaying when you hear a female character speaking with a man's voice.

The game you want is Sims:space! Lol

Actually, that sounds great, yeah.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I am not scared of voice comms, my computer generally does not handle them well.

Perhaps it's time to upgrade your sound card drivers? Or if that does not fix the problem, purchase a new sound card. You're not using a laptop, are you?

[Stark]

PvP in EVE is largely consensual; if you stay in highsec you're pretty goddamn safe. If you're building a shipping empire or whatever you can play safe and still 'roleplay'.

But hey you're a guy who feels pretending to be a woman is an essential part of a space game... so... download IMVU, put your woman in a space suit, and you've got the game you want.

Most people don't consider dressups and home decorating a key selling point of a 'space game'.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I am not scared of voice comms, my computer generally does not handle them well.

Perhaps it's time to upgrade your sound card drivers? Or if that does not fix the problem, purchase a new sound card. You're not using a laptop, are you?

I'm using a computer that is, at heart, a 7-year-old Sony VAIO PCV-RZ44G. Pretty much the only parts that remain from back then are the mobo, processor, and network card.

It's not time to upgrade drivers or sound card. It's time to replace the mother.

Fortunately, I already have. I'm just waiting for the parts to arrive. I'll put 'em in the truck and drive up to my Old Ponytail Computer Guy friend in PA to put the thing together.

PvP in EVE is largely consensual; if you stay in highsec you're pretty goddamn safe. If you're building a shipping empire or whatever you can play safe and still 'roleplay'.

You can't build space stations or factories or stuff like that. If you want to mine, you've got to compete with sweatshop laborers who slave tirelessly over about ten hot PCs and who don't take kindly to people who're seriously playing the game. There's no roleplaying support from CCP beyond the ability to mold your character's face; not even the ability to choose the colors of your goddamned spaceship! There is nothing whatsoever that you can do to distinguish your ship from that of someone else with the same skills and means as you.

But hey you're a guy who feels pretending to be a woman is an essential part of a space game... so... download IMVU, put your woman in a space suit, and you've got the game you want.

Most people don't consider dressups and home decorating a key selling point of a 'space game'.

Funnily enough, I happen to think that being able to paint my glorious alien/robot/enemy-smashing starship up the way I like it to be a key selling point. I do not get off to watching numbers scroll across the screen, otherwise I could be amused endlessly by a flash app reproducing Alpha Protocol's hacking minigame. (Dear god, nobody make that, please.)

And yes, if I want to take the interior of my spaceship, add bunks and tables and decorations and invite my friends to fly around with me, talking in-character, shooting up bad guys, or sitting around a holotable shooting the breeze, I happen to think I ought to be able to do that.

[Stark]

Have fun in your pipe dream of no-game, then. EVE isn't a game for people who use MMOs as a chat client; but there's IMVU for that. Oh wait you hate that idea for ... some reason. Just ROLEPLAY your industrial empire; you're obviously to much a coward to build one anywhere near anyone else.

I love how 'no roleplaying support' to you means 'can't paint ship' instead of fundamental game mechanics that might support roleplaying; I see far too many people in EVE roleplaying to take any of your drivel seriously. There are RP chats; what more do you need?

You can build a literal empire in EVE, but it requires you to have a spine. It has the most effective method of balancing risk/reward and having an in-game system for consensual PVP, but somehow this is bad.

Hilariously even Space Rangers would be too competive with you, because it's not a no-threat playpen where you get to masturbate over your ice cream production empire.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Have fun in your pipe dream of no-game, then.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I'm going to cancel the WoW subscription I haven't used in months and re-subscribe to Starwars Galaxies. That game was great, and I've just remembered why I quit: I was loving the game, but my internet was getting to a point where it would spot-drop me from the internet for a split second every five minutes or less, which understandably made playing an MMORPG impossible because it was a hard drop full-disconnect, not a latency spike.

EVE isn't a game for people who use MMOs as a chat client; but there's IMVU for that. Oh wait you hate that idea for ... some reason. Just ROLEPLAY your industrial empire; you're obviously to much a coward to build one anywhere near anyone else.

You know, you like to throw the word 'coward' around a lot. If being averse to the idea that another player with vastly more resources than I have can come along and shit all over everything I have, destroying it and sending me back to square one with little or naught to show for my time and effort constitutes cowardice, then yes, I am a coward.

If, on the other hand, it simply means I am averse to the idea that some shithead who takes a dislike to me can come along and wreck me, then I am averse to that thought. Other players should not be able to impose failure, destruction, or more than minor setbacks upon you enjoying the game.

Because that's what you fucking play the game for; to have fun. I, for one, do not find the possibility of being wrecked utterly to be very fun.

I love how 'no roleplaying support' to you means 'can't paint ship' instead of fundamental game mechanics that might support roleplaying; I see far too many people in EVE roleplaying to take any of your drivel seriously. There are RP chats; what more do you need?

Descriptions of planets. The ability to get out of the egg and take my pilot for a walk 'round a space station? The ability to paint and detail my ship, change my character's wardrobe? The ability to decorate living spaces aboard my ship/on a space station/on a planet to my taste, and allow my fellow players to come and behold what I have wrought?

Granted, EvE has a lot of things that are good roleplaying tools; the ability to communicate from anywhere, the ability to send in-game mails, the ability to maintain a host of in-game notes, the various calculators and other tools they incorporated into the UI. Many of these are good; I used to go mining and write stories in-character (by which I mean I wrote as if my character was the one writing them) in the in-game notes.

But ultimately, while they have pretty much all of the secondary tools required, the only primary tools they have are the in-game mail and communications. The rest is barren.

You can build a literal empire in EVE, but it requires you to have a spine. It has the most effective method of balancing risk/reward and having an in-game system for consensual PVP, but somehow this is bad.

PvP in EvE is not consentual. You can get ganked and have all your shit stolen in 1.0. This has happened before. All it takes is somebody shipping their stuff in a cargo hauler through 1.0 space to get ganked by some thieves. All the thieves need is a sacrificial ship that can tank CONCORD long enough to blow up a cargo hauler and an acomplice in another hauler ready to scoop up the goods and haul aft for a space station; hardly an onerous imposition.

Hilariously even Space Rangers would be too competive with you, because it's not a no-threat playpen where you get to masturbate over your ice cream production empire.

You seem to have an odd fascination about what I masturbate over. Perhaps we should split that discussion to ARSE or PMs?

[Stark]

I'm glad we've agreed you don't like EVE because you can't handle interaction and think it's 'barren' of roleplay unless you can walk around, paint your ship, etc. The ludicrous inane fluff and chat functions are clearly useless for this.

You don't like the facts of life and want no-risk. I can see how such an attitude means you can't play EVE, because EVE is challenging and requires constant risk-management.

The whole statement 'Other players should not be able to impose failure, destruction, or more than minor setbacks upon you enjoying the game' is just absolutely ridiculous in an MMO.

I find all this fascinating becasue to the non-coward population games like SR2 are interesting beyond their quite primitive appearance because EVE-like events can actually happen and you need to be on your feet, look after yourself, have a plan, and adapt to changing situations, all things that you would hate.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I'm glad we've agreed you don't like EVE because you can't handle interaction and think it's 'barren' of roleplay unless you can walk around, paint your ship, etc. The ludicrous inane fluff and chat functions are clearly useless for this.

WHAT fluff? The last time I checked, if you examined the planet Amarr , you got treated to a wonderfully detailed description consisting of the planet's atmospheric type, mass, and gravitational pull at ground level. There's no fluff, and yes, I do think a game is barren of roleplay if I cannot take a walk around and admire that which I and my friends have wrought. I do think a game is barren of roleplay if I cannot even customize my ship to the extent of choosing my own paint job.

You don't like the facts of life and want no-risk. I can see how such an attitude means you can't play EVE, because EVE is challenging and requires constant risk-management.

There's enough facts of life out there in real life. No, a game should not incorporate elements which cause the player more than a minor setback. They definitely should not incorporate elements which wreck the player's ability to continue to play. I don't know about you, I play games to have fun and unwind, not to get frustrated and angry.

The whole statement 'Other players should not be able to impose failure, destruction, or more than minor setbacks upon you enjoying the game' is just absolutely ridiculous in an MMO.

Um, what? Lots of games manage it just fine that way. AFAIK, only EvE and UO are the ones that allow other players' actions to wipe you out.

I find all this fascinating becasue to the non-coward population games like SR2 are interesting beyond their quite primitive appearance because EVE-like events can actually happen and you need to be on your feet, look after yourself, have a plan, and adapt to changing situations, all things that you would hate.

And I find this all fascinating because you're such a troll who likes to bash on me.

I don't find a game to be very fun if a moment of laxity (possibly caused by my dog barking or my aunt telling me to look at something), a moment of lag spike or the inadvertant but inevitable situation when I get in over my head, a failure to plan or to plan properly, or an inability to adapt to changing situations, causes the game to tell me "HA HA, YOU SUCK! NO FUN FOR YOU, EVERYTHING YOU HAD? GONE! EVERYTHING YOU WORKED FOR? GONE! GO DIRECTLY TO NEW CHARACTER."

I especially hate it when other players, especially ones against whom no amount of insulation against real-world interference, no reasonable amount of equipment or leveling, no planning or adaptability can save you, can just come along and inflict that upon you.