What are the good space games to be had?

[Stark]

Under what circumstance would you ever spend all your money on a fit, unless you're into pvp and really dumb?

It's not EVEs fault you're too stupid the handle risk vs reward or keep an eye on local. It amuses me NO END that someone so interested in RP - which I take now to mean 'pretend to be a woman' - would casually dismiss elements of fluff they don't like.

[charlemagne]

Reading comprehension, much?

I was comparing it to WoW, where the only way to get yourself ganked by high-level opposing players as a low-level player without flagging somewhere is for one of those high-level players to be going out of his way to specifically be a douche and lurk around places where common questlines require an Alliance player to flag by killing Horde NPCs and vice versa (such as the Warsong logging camp in Ashenvale where Alliance players have to go and kill a shitload of Horde NPCs.)

Moron.

My bad there.

It amuses me NO END that someone so interested in RP - which I take now to mean 'pretend to be a woman' - would casually dismiss elements of fluff they don't like.

Yeah, that's why I talked about that clone fluff stuff, because hey, let's give him something to roleplay with. But no... I'm no "lore expert" on Eve, but no one in-universe is treating the whole capsuleer business as anything other than immortality. Just like no one on Star Trek would ever go "lol transporters = death" all the time. If you want to roleplay in that setting, you just have to accept it.

Just earlier today I lost a T2 fitted Hurricane my alt uses to salvage my main's missions. Replacing it was around 50 mill ISK I think. You know why I didn't start crying? Because I would've used a T1 fitted destroyer as a salvage boat if I didn't have the money to replace whatever I undock.

[White Haven]

First-off, it's cloning PLUS consciousness transfer, so no, it's not death. Secondly, don't spend it all. If you're broke at any given time, that's your cue to go make money, not go charging into lowsec.

HOWEVER. Insurance just took a heavy nerf, although T2 insurance was buffed at the same time. As a result, T1 hulls aren't free any longer, so ship losses are substantially more meaningful.

[ShadowDragon8685]

First-off, it's cloning PLUS consciousness transfer, so no, it's not death. Secondly, don't spend it all. If you're broke at any given time, that's your cue to go make money, not go charging into lowsec.

It is not consciousness transfer, it's memory copy. The flash-recording process that flash-records your brain is not[/i transfer, it fries your brain, killing you.

It just means that somebody else wakes up with your memories. Not everyone in a given universe treats this sort of thing the same way, and there are people in the Star Trek universe who refuse to be transported for exactly this reason. Given that EvE-ian flash-copying is a lot more destructive and doesn't have even as much continunuity as Star Trek transporters, you, the very personal you, are dead. That's how I always thought of it, and how my characters would treat the idea.

[Nephtys]

It's viewed in-theme as a consciousness transfer. Pod Pilots are basically immortal transhuman body-hoppers. A Jump Clone allows a person with 'Infomorph Psychology' training, implants and whatnot to just swap bodies willy-nilly, without damaging the original.

[Ghost Rider]

Wait, wait, wait...are you honestly debating how to RP a death penalty in an MMO? I mean for fuck's sake you could do it two very easy ways.

1. Character plays up with the quirk of DYING and returning, thus takes it whatever stride you want to. Many opportunities here.

2. You delete said character and resolve said RP.

or bitch about it to people who couldn't give a fuck because you are bitching about a game mechanic and too fucking inept to play the shit in some imaginative fashion.

[charlemagne]

or bitch about it to people who couldn't give a fuck because you are bitching about a game mechanic and too fucking inept to play the shit in some imaginative fashion.

Especially since Eve is one of the very few MMOs where 'death' actually matters, since you lose something beyond "lol meaningless stat reduction for 10 minutes and a repair bill".

Also, IMO the Eve mechanics make a hell of a lot more sense (in-universe of course) than "lol magic" in most other MMOs, and that makes it very, very easy to RP around it, since constantly coming back from death is not just some freaky thing only the player character does.

But that's besides the point really since it's just meaningless fluff, and there's no need to constantly be podded in Eve anyways if you 1. stay in high sec and/or 2. don't do stupid things. Actually the only place where you sometimes simply cannot avoid getting podded is 0.0 with it's warp bubbles.

[White Haven]

Or a serious smartbomb gank team in high or lowsec, admittedly.

[charlemagne]

Yeah, forgot about that because it never happened to me Being stupid and bubbles, sure, but no smartbomb death yet!

[Stark]

But there's always risk. For some people that's the attraction, for guys who want to furnish their spaceship and chat about 'RP' its probably terrifying.

[Ghost Rider]

But there's always risk. For some people that's the attraction, for guys who want to furnish their spaceship and chat about 'RP' its probably terrifying.

I mean the chance at dying should be awesome for any sort of role playing because it adds tension and drama that isn't some half assed storyline that is only you and your personal gang. Hell, it's why so much RP in MMOS is laughed at and at times is dry nonsense. You chat, and chat, and chat, and chat, and build fake drama and tension to chat some more. But if you actually have the chance at really dying and using your wits, you can play that scenario up as a wonderful escape or failure.

Hell, if SD doesn't want that...what the fuck? Are you the type that is happy with just sitting in a tavern in WoW chatting about that time you RPed a battle with the vampire half blood son of Jaina and Arthas?

[ShadowDragon8685]

I mean the chance at dying should be awesome for any sort of role playing because it adds tension and drama that isn't some half assed storyline that is only you and your personal gang. Hell, it's why so much RP in MMOS is laughed at and at times is dry nonsense. You chat, and chat, and chat, and chat, and build fake drama and tension to chat some more. But if you actually have the chance at really dying and using your wits, you can play that scenario up as a wonderful escape or failure.

Hell, if SD doesn't want that...what the fuck? Are you the type that is happy with just sitting in a tavern in WoW chatting about that time you RPed a battle with the vampire half blood son of Jaina and Arthas?

I have, in fact, killed long evenings with my character at a tavern, roleplaying discussions with others.

The difference is that in WoW, death is a setback. In EvE, it can wipe you out. In the past, it has wiped me out - last time I reactivated EvE, I logged back in without enough credits to send an EvE-mail to a person I remembered from long ago. I certainly couldn't have afforded to fit anything or do anything if I'd managed to get my ship popped in that state. Whereas in WoW, you get your gear repaired, sigh at the slug of gold now missing from your bank account, and move on because it didn't really hurt more than a soft punch to the upper arm.

Moreover, as I've said before, there is next-to-nil primary roleplaying support in EvE. The only way it could be worse is if they made you send in a scan of your driver's license to use your photo as your character image and allowed only voice comms. It really is SpreadSheet: The Crunchening with a skin of science-fiction violence over top.


Although, interestingly enough, I did just get a "Reactivate your account and play for a few days free" tempt-mail...

[Stark]

So you're honestly saying that you can't be ruined in WoW because... you're not stupid enough to run up sufficient repair bills?

Surely you can see how hilarious this is, given the axiom of never flying what you can't afford to lose - an exact corollory.

I love how 'no roleplaying support' is apparently 'whole corps, official fiction and ingame events'. For crying out loud half the website is devoted to the totally useless roleplaying newspaper of fake universe events!

The terror of voice comms - and the idea voice disrupts roleplay - is probably the highlight of this post.

[Nephtys]

Except in EVE, it can't wipe you out. Unless you're incredibly stupid, careless, and ignorant. The worst it can do is force you to fly a cheaper spaceship. And that's only if the previous 3 things are applied. It's basically saying the exact same thing as 'OH NO. All my gear is broken because I KEPT DYING in WoW. This game wiped me out!'

[Ghost Rider]

I mean the chance at dying should be awesome for any sort of role playing because it adds tension and drama that isn't some half assed storyline that is only you and your personal gang. Hell, it's why so much RP in MMOS is laughed at and at times is dry nonsense. You chat, and chat, and chat, and chat, and build fake drama and tension to chat some more. But if you actually have the chance at really dying and using your wits, you can play that scenario up as a wonderful escape or failure.

Hell, if SD doesn't want that...what the fuck? Are you the type that is happy with just sitting in a tavern in WoW chatting about that time you RPed a battle with the vampire half blood son of Jaina and Arthas?

I have, in fact, killed long evenings with my character at a tavern, roleplaying discussions with others.

So basically shooting the shit is what you consider Role Playing? No wonder you're terrified at dying.

The difference is that in WoW, death is a setback. In EvE, it can wipe you out. In the past, it has wiped me out - last time I reactivated EvE, I logged back in without enough credits to send an EvE-mail to a person I remembered from long ago. I certainly couldn't have afforded to fit anything or do anything if I'd managed to get my ship popped in that state. Whereas in WoW, you get your gear repaired, sigh at the slug of gold now missing from your bank account, and move on because it didn't really hurt more than a soft punch to the upper arm.

Then you're doing it wrong. I've had friends who did nothing more then fuck-all PVE missions gain money to lose their ship. Again this comes back to this very pertinent fact, do not play what you cannot lose.

Moreover, as I've said before, there is next-to-nil primary roleplaying support in EvE. The only way it could be worse is if they made you send in a scan of your driver's license to use your photo as your character image and allowed only voice comms. It really is SpreadSheet: The Crunchening with a skin of science-fiction violence over top.


Although, interestingly enough, I did just get a "Reactivate your account and play for a few days free" tempt-mail...

Given that RPing is the lowest thing on the totem pole for most MMOs, your point? They allow you the freedom to go pretty much everywhere and allow both the jackals and enterprising their shot at making what they want with things. Amazing that they've chosen a more active lifestyle in the more lawless sector?

[Balrog]

I mean, that's probably the reason the only two MMOs i've ever enjoyed were Planetside and Battleground Europe. When they "massively multiplayer" they aren't bullshitting you.

Oh wow, someone else who played WWIIOnline. Those were good times, I usually played Axis and had a blast, even got to take part in two separate invasions of England.

Anyways, to chime in with space games, another old game I used to play that's still going is Darkspace. It's sorta like EVE, in that you command a single ship and battle it out as one of three different factions (two human, one alien), but it is definitely focused more on straight combat than putzing around as a garbage scowl. Of course it took forever for updates to come around since the whole thing is really just run by one guy, but despite its flaws I still had fun. Could give it a try if you want spacey MMO action.

[CaptHawkeye]

I'd still be playing the game if it wasn't for the fact that the gameplay model itself is hopelessly archaic. They still base the game on arbitrary fixed spawn points in towns. Meaning 98% of battles are just camping grindfests. When they fix that they can call me.

[charlemagne]

Moreover, as I've said before, there is next-to-nil primary roleplaying support in EvE. The only way it could be worse is if they made you send in a scan of your driver's license to use your photo as your character image and allowed only voice comms. It really is SpreadSheet: The Crunchening with a skin of science-fiction violence over top.

So you absolutely need meaningless fluff to be able to imagine anything. Did you every try pen & paper roleplaying? That must be the worst thing ever to you.

In Eve, your character can actually build an empire. You can own space! Star systems that would actually say "Sovereignty: Your alliance"! I don't know, that seems freaking huge in terms of roleplaying experience. You can found or join a Minmatar alliance that holds space to give refuge to escaped Amarr slaves, and the game mechanics would actually aid you in that. I can't think of any other MMORPG that lets you do that.

You see, in Eve the things your character does actually matter. What alliances and corps do in 0.0 and low-sec shapes the political landscape in the game. In other games you can only sit around and talk about the eternal status quo that no one besides the Devs can challenge.

I do get that Eve is not for everyone with all the "real" risk and the free-for-all mentality - but your points against Eve are still hilarious. Seriously, even if you're so broke you can't even send Evemail to some idiot who still has the fee for his inbox set, you can just go to any noob system and re-do the tutorial missions that leave you with a couple mill ISK and a pile of frigs, two destroyers and an hauler. (The tutorials hilariously also teach you about game facts like "losing ships is normal, get used to it noob" )

[Serafina]

Wait, are you complaining that you can't roleplay in EVE?
What the fuck?
EVE is one of the easiest way to roleplay, since you do pretty much nothing ingame you character wouldn't do. You even have an explanation for resurrection for fucks sake. And you can always stick to a certain role if you want to - not that you don't do that anyway. You can play a merchant, a miner, a smuggler, a bounty hunter, a soldier, a bodyguard, a pirate, a craftsman, an explorer - and way more than that, limited mostly by your imagination.
Who the fuck needs roleplaying support?
Games like WoW might need it because they are often too restrictive to their players abilities. EVE doesn't actually need it and still has it.

Of course, you are propably a roleplaying carebear who needs campfires and taverns as well as fancy language, because everyone knows that that's all real adventurers do
If you want to roleplay in an MMO, it should be more than just a chat and some fancy animations. Else, why use an MMO at all?

[Stark]

Here's a screencap from the mainsite.



Note the no roleplaying fluff at all... oh wait. Turns out there is in fact ingame support for roleplaying, events, news reporting, etc.

[ShadowDragon8685]

So you absolutely need meaningless fluff to be able to imagine anything. Did you every try pen & paper roleplaying? That must be the worst thing ever to you.

In Pen & Paper, you can do anything in you like. In EvE, your options are limited to mining and mission running and similar bullshit in Highsec, or trying to join the paranoid lunatics out in lowsec.

In Eve, your character can actually build an empire. You can own space! Star systems that would actually say "Sovereignty: Your alliance"! I don't know, that seems freaking huge in terms of roleplaying experience. You can found or join a Minmatar alliance that holds space to give refuge to escaped Amarr slaves, and the game mechanics would actually aid you in that. I can't think of any other MMORPG that lets you do that.

No, your character can't. That kind of thing is impossible for any casual player, and it takes the resources of vast coalitions of players, usually with the investment of significant amounts of real-world money to buy ISK via time-card trading. Owing to the nature of EvE, the ones at the top are the oldest and the ones with the mostest, and those who are just starting (or re-starting) have no hope in hell of catching up - definitionally, because of the way the game is set-up. There's no "hike to eighty and then grind down the dailies to get your gear," because EvE is a nearly-perpetual climb, and the oldest definitionally have climbed the highest.

Also, "give refuge to escaped Amarr slaves", what the fuck? The only way I can think of to do that is to buy the "slaves" item on the market and hoard them in your space-station.

You see, in Eve the things your character does actually matter. What alliances and corps do in 0.0 and low-sec shapes the political landscape in the game. In other games you can only sit around and talk about the eternal status quo that no one besides the Devs can challenge.

Nothing your character does matters, short of being that one asshole who manages to worm into the corp vaults and cleans them out; and thanks to a few highly publicized events of that happening, it's probably never going to happen again since the corps are so paranoid they're actually doing their level best to perform R/L background checks on members.

And even if it does, you're almost certainly not going to get away with it, since they'll dedicate themselves to hunting you down, even back in highsec. Your character's a wash and you're gonna have to start over with a newbie, if not an entirely new account.

I do get that Eve is not for everyone with all the "real" risk and the free-for-all mentality - but your points against Eve are still hilarious. Seriously, even if you're so broke you can't even send Evemail to some idiot who still has the fee for his inbox set, you can just go to any noob system and re-do the tutorial missions that leave you with a couple mill ISK and a pile of frigs, two destroyers and an hauler. (The tutorials hilariously also teach you about game facts like "losing ships is normal, get used to it noob" )

Funnily enough, the last time I played, none of this was an option, because it was before they accelerated the start. Back when I last played, you got the piece of shit, and had to grind noob missions for an hour for 10K. Also, you couldn't re-do any but the grind missions.

Maybe things changed on that respect, but it's still not something I want to play, so why the fuck do you people keep trying to laud it's fucking virtues in a thread I started to find good space games. Seriously, what the fuck is this? I do not like EvE Online, I will not like EvE Online because I loathe the damn thing.

[Serafina]

So basically, you are "waaah, i can't do everything completely on my own"?
Then why play an MMO in the first place?

[ShadowDragon8685]

So basically, you are "waaah, i can't do everything completely on my own"?
Then why play an MMO in the first place?

Apples and oranges. You're comparing stuff that only like, the top 1% of EvE players can do, thanks to being parts of huge corporations, and saying "Look, there's roleplaying!"

You might as well ask why someone is disillusioned of the idea of ever owning a Bugatti Veyron. (Or, for that matter, ever even seeing one with one's own eyes.) Sure, if you're in that top 1%, CCP might deign to write some HTML about you, but for the rest there's no RP support whatsoever.

The difference is that eventually, everyone playing WoW should have a chance at killing Arthas and seeing the endgame WotLK content; if nothing else, then by the time they're verging on endgame Cataclysm content they should be able to damn-near solo the Halls of Reflection, and it'll be eminantly possible with just a friend. Get together five or so who want to relive the old days and you ought to be able to do the killing-the-lich-king thing if you want to. (Two 80s geared for TotGC are easily capable of duoing the five-man Kael'thas, for example.)

CCP has none of that. Yes, it's constantly progressing, but their ingenious idea for high-end content was to let other players provide the challenge. Sure, if you want to be a PvPer it's there, but I do not like PvP. I am, in fact, extremely averse to PvP. I cannot overstate the level to which I hate PvP.

[charlemagne]

No, your character can't. That kind of thing is impossible for any casual player, and it takes the resources of vast coalitions of players, usually with the investment of significant amounts of real-world money to buy ISK via time-card trading. Owing to the nature of EvE, the ones at the top are the oldest and the ones with the mostest, and those who are just starting (or re-starting) have no hope in hell of catching up - definitionally, because of the way the game is set-up. There's no "hike to eighty and then grind down the dailies to get your gear," because EvE is a nearly-perpetual climb, and the oldest definitionally have climbed the highest.

2 things - one, of course it's not doable for a single player, but why should it? Oh right, you want to pwn everything in an MMO on your own, and then sit around a campfire making up stories while spamming emotes. Two, the advantage older players have is overrated. Of course he can fly more ships than you can etc., but all his skillpoints in caps won't help him when he's flying a frig.

Also, "give refuge to escaped Amarr slaves", what the fuck? The only way I can think of to do that is to buy the "slaves" item on the market and hoard them in your space-station.

You're really a moron - obviously you'd play that out with other players. It honestly never occurs to you to interact with other people besides using /say, does it?

Maybe things changed on that respect, but it's still not something I want to play, so why the fuck do you people keep trying to laud it's fucking virtues in a thread I started to find good space games. Seriously, what the fuck is this? I do not like EvE Online, I will not like EvE Online because I loathe the damn thing.

Look, it's ok you don't like the game for the pvp aspect - but the stuff you complain about here is stupid.

Eve is a vast sandbox for roleplaying. You just have to broaden your horizon beyond "sitting in a tavern, making up stories or talking about the exact same thing every other char in the game did, too". In Eve, you yourself are shaping your stories, not the Devs through quest texts.

Heh, and I'm not even a roleplayer!

[ShadowDragon8685]

2 things - one, of course it's not doable for a single player, but why should it? Oh right, you want to pwn everything in an MMO on your own, and then sit around a campfire making up stories while spamming emotes. Two, the advantage older players have is overrated. Of course he can fly more ships than you can etc., but all his skillpoints in caps won't help him when he's flying a frig.

It's not doable for any number of players unless they band together into a gigantic horde of paranoid lunatics; I have no wish to be such a lunatic. And why, pray tell, would a guy who can fly a cap want to fly a frigate? Unless he's being swarmed by frigates and destroyers, he'll never feel threatened by anything smaller than him; and really, if you're getting swarmed you're fucked no matter what you do or what you're flying.

Also, "give refuge to escaped Amarr slaves", what the fuck? The only way I can think of to do that is to buy the "slaves" item on the market and hoard them in your space-station.

You're really a moron - obviously you'd play that out with other players. It honestly never occurs to you to interact with other people besides using /say, does it?

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were the one who was saying "The game has all this roleplay support and you don't need to make up stuff with no in-game effect with other players to have a roleplaying good time beca use you can just do it through the UI and existing game mechanics."

So not only are you moving the goalposts, you've either just declared each team's goal to be the other one, or you've just scored an own goal.

Maybe things changed on that respect, but it's still not something I want to play, so why the fuck do you people keep trying to laud it's fucking virtues in a thread I started to find good space games. Seriously, what the fuck is this? I do not like EvE Online, I will not like EvE Online because I loathe the damn thing.

Look, it's ok you don't like the game for the pvp aspect - but the stuff you complain about here is stupid.

Eve is a vast sandbox for roleplaying. You just have to broaden your horizon beyond "sitting in a tavern, making up stories or talking about the exact same thing every other char in the game did, too". In Eve, you yourself are shaping your stories, not the Devs through quest texts.

It's not so much a sandbox as it is a box and they say "this might be a sandbox. First imagine the sand." Everything I want for roleplaying purposes is absent from EvE; as mentioned, I can't even paint my own damn ship, let alone customize any looks beyond the initial creation of my character's face. There's no way to get out and have a walk or have a look around, you certainly can't meet up with a friend in a tavern. And yes, I do happen to like that sort of thing.

So, who exactly the hell are you to tell me that my roleplaying is bad and I don't know what I'm talking about when in fact I expressly know what I'm talking about, have played EvE before, and hate it on so many levels it's ridiculous?



For that matter, why are we still on the topic of EvE? I hate the game, all of you ranting that I don't have fun the right way aren't going to change that! I was asking about non-MMO space games in any event! If I were going to pick up an MMO for space, it would be Starwars Galaxies again.