What are the good space games to be had?

[Serafina]

So basically, you are "waaah, i can't do everything completely on my own"?
Then why play an MMO in the first place?

Apples and oranges. You're comparing stuff that only like, the top 1% of EvE players can do, thanks to being parts of huge corporations, and saying "Look, there's roleplaying!"

You might as well ask why someone is disillusioned of the idea of ever owning a Bugatti Veyron. (Or, for that matter, ever even seeing one with one's own eyes.) Sure, if you're in that top 1%, CCP might deign to write some HTML about you, but for the rest there's no RP support whatsoever.

The difference is that eventually, everyone playing WoW should have a chance at killing Arthas and seeing the endgame WotLK content; if nothing else, then by the time they're verging on endgame Cataclysm content they should be able to damn-near solo the Halls of Reflection, and it'll be eminantly possible with just a friend. Get together five or so who want to relive the old days and you ought to be able to do the killing-the-lich-king thing if you want to. (Two 80s geared for TotGC are easily capable of duoing the five-man Kael'thas, for example.)

CCP has none of that. Yes, it's constantly progressing, but their ingenious idea for high-end content was to let other players provide the challenge. Sure, if you want to be a PvPer it's there, but I do not like PvP. I am, in fact, extremely averse to PvP. I cannot overstate the level to which I hate PvP.

You don't listen, do you?

I listed a wealth of roles that you can play, completely in-character if you choose to. Only a minority of those require you to be in a top-corporation, if any. And you attack that based on - well, your own stupidity is suppose.
Roleplaying is not "i want to do the most awesome stuff around". It's about playing a role.
WoW is extremely limiting in that regard, since there are few character-specific activities. Want to play a druids lifestyle? Nope, you do the same things as everyone else.
In EVE, if i want to play a trader, i will play a trader and do things that traders do. Same goes for every other role.

Seriously - we are talking about RP and you talk about raiding
That's like talking about sex and brining up...well, work would be adequate, i suppose.
You evidently do not understand roleplaying. It can by definition be done in every enviorment where you can interact with people, given sufficient time (i.e. not while raiding). The difference is in how well the game actually supplies you with ways to play a role. EVE does that just fine, there are tons of viable roles that you can play totally in-character while also playing the game. In WoW, there are next to no ways to play a role AND the game at the same time - roleplaying is a purely extracurricular activity.

You know what? If you want campfires and taverns, use a chat program and paint.
If you want to play a role in a fictional universe, dom't complain about EVE.

[Spoonist]

ShadowDragon8685, just a small hint here. They will not shut up about EvE until you stop bitching about it. If you just shut up about EvE there will be less stupidity to respond to.
And that is from someone who has yet to play EvE.

[Serafina]

ShadowDragon8685, just a small hint here. They will not shut up about EvE until you stop bitching about it. If you just shut up about EvE there will be less stupidity to respond to.
And that is from someone who has yet to play EvE.

Heck, i have not played EVE for over a year now, and not all that long before that. I simply can't stand his stupidity and his obviously erroneous claims.

[Temjin]

ShadowDragon8685, just a small hint here. They will not shut up about EvE until you stop bitching about it. If you just shut up about EvE there will be less stupidity to respond to.
And that is from someone who has yet to play EvE.

It's not even that he's bitching about EVE. There's valid things to dislike in EVE, and it's not everyone's cup of tea. If he had just said "Yeah, I tried EVE. It's just not my kind of thing." it would have been fine with no flare up.

But then he expanded on his reasons, and a lot of them are absurd to anyone who has actually played the game, such as not enough RP'ing. For most of EVE's existence, a quite large RP alliance existed called CVA. They only went under a few months ago. But for most of their five or six years of existence, they were a generally well respected alliance.

[edit] Also wanted to mention that in EVE, you can actually do useful in game stuff while still maintaing character. Unlike in WoW, where it's basically "And the band of adventurers once again set out to slay Arthas for the fifteenth time, all desperately hopeing that this time he'll drop the Pointy Stick of +2 Godliness." [/edit]

And he compares this unfavourably to sitting around in an inn in WoW shooting the shit.

And that's just one of his complaints.

[charlemagne]

Well it's true that EvE is not your game if your idea of roleplaying is playing dress-up

But then he expanded on his reasons, and a lot of them are absurd to anyone who has actually played the game, such as not enough RP'ing.

Yeah, exactly. I don't even know why I got worked up over this, I don't really care if Shadow likes the game or not. This whole argument is rather pointless, so yeah, sorry for shitting up the thread.

[Nephtys]

I mean, how is it any less roleplaying when your gang has a target scrammed, orbitting it with weapons locked, shouting piratey-quips into local and demand they jettison their cargo? (then of course, being the bloody-minded psychopaths, you kill them anyway). How is that any less 'roleplaying' than killing the same dude over and over and robbing his pants? Are you going to swagger into a tavern, demandeth a flagon of ale, then recount how you saved all the land by slaying Arthas for the 15th time?

I don't play anymore, but I have to clarify a few things about EvE that you've stated that are most certainly not true. You also certainly CAN catch up with older players. The vast majority of level V skills beyond a few core ones are entirely optional, and are about breadth of ability, not depth. With 20M SP, you can fly a Tech2-fit Battleship quite competently, and virtually all the ships below that. Great. But having 60M SP only means that they can do the same, but fly those of other races. Which just gives a choice, but not a capability difference.

Likewise with finances, if you're crafty. I played on-off-on-off for about 1.5 years, stopping about early 2009. And in that time, I caught up with the fortunes of many players who were playing since release, despite not really playing that much because of a few tricks involving acquiring a T2 BPO. You need to identify a way to get money besides 'shoot NPC, get loot', and exploit it for the billions and billions needed for capital ships, endless Tech2 hulls, and whatnot. It's not that hard, and people do it.

[ShadowDragon8685]

But then he expanded on his reasons, and a lot of them are absurd to anyone who has actually played the game, such as not enough RP'ing. For most of EVE's existence, a quite large RP alliance existed called CVA. They only went under a few months ago. But for most of their five or six years of existence, they were a generally well respected alliance.

I said there was not enough RP support, not that there wasn't enough RPing. You can RP perfectly well with no more a chat client that can handle dice. The point is that in an MMO, I want more support from something I'm paying $15 a month for than I could get from a free chat program like OpenRPG or MapTools. I want things like customization - and "you can buy all the pieces of ++ stat gear you want" is not customization. Customization is things like being able to paint your ship's hull or alter your character's wardrobe. Fluff stuff, like the ability to go for a walk inside a space station - hell, even EnB had that! EnB let you freaking design your ship - sure, it wasn't a whole lot of variety, but it was a damn sight more than EvE, with it's disposable ships.

As it is, the gameplay of EvE is more or less the gameplay of Nexus: The Jupiter Incident. EvE has a lot more tiers of equipment to work through and more variations on the basic paradigm of "this weapon fucks up X, this weapon fucks up Y, this weapon doesn't fuck up much but disables the other guy's fuck-you-uppers," but there's ultimately not much in terms of gameplay that Nexus doesn't have; whilst Nexus has a much deeper and more involving storyline.

[edit] Also wanted to mention that in EVE, you can actually do useful in game stuff while still maintaing character. Unlike in WoW, where it's basically "And the band of adventurers once again set out to slay Arthas for the fifteenth time, all desperately hopeing that this time he'll drop the Pointy Stick of +2 Godliness."[/edit]

Compared to EvE, where you do... What, exactly? Go mining and chat with friends to allieviate the mind-numbing realization that you're doing the exact same sort of mind-numbingly repetitive bullshit that in any other situation you would make someone else pay you in order to get you to do it?

Sure, missions can be sort-of fun if you have friends with you, but that's the same thing you just complained about WoW being like; "and the squadron of frigates undocked for the fifteenth time to go frag rogue drone queens and all the while hoping she'll drop precious metals they can salvage from her corpse?"

At least WoW has a somewhat decent selection of RP clothes you can collect if you feel like it. It also has a story of sorts, and while everyone else may have been through that story, at least you have been, too.

And he compares this unfavourably to sitting around in an inn in WoW shooting the shit.

Yes, yes I do.

And that's just one of his complaints.

It is! Because it is not fun for me. I'm not telling you how to have fun, so kindly refrain from telling me I don't know how to have fun "right".

I mean, how is it any less roleplaying when your gang has a target scrammed, orbitting it with weapons locked, shouting piratey-quips into local and demand they jettison their cargo? (then of course, being the bloody-minded psychopaths, you kill them anyway). How is that any less 'roleplaying' than killing the same dude over and over and robbing his pants? Are you going to swagger into a tavern, demandeth a flagon of ale, then recount how you saved all the land by slaying Arthas for the 15th time?

To start with, I would never be there because ruining some poor bastard's night, in the name of roleplaying or otherwise, isn't my idea of a good time. I don't have a very fun time roleplaying a psychopath. Secondly, you ever heard of suspension of disbelief? You don't have to try to roleplay out the raid (since trying to RP in the middle of a boss fight will get you killed anyway,) you save that for afterwards. As opposed to what, exactly - a bunch of space captains, ostensibly the best and brightest of their respective races, talking trash like modern-day hoodlums whilst brandishing weapons at you?

That's called a mugging, followed by a murder. It's not very roleplay-tastic, you know; hardly engaging or driving as a form of cooperative storytelling, and not the kind of thing I enjoy.

I don't play anymore, but I have to clarify a few things about EvE that you've stated that are most certainly not true. You also certainly CAN catch up with older players. The vast majority of level V skills beyond a few core ones are entirely optional, and are about breadth of ability, not depth. With 20M SP, you can fly a Tech2-fit Battleship quite competently, and virtually all the ships below that. Great. But having 60M SP only means that they can do the same, but fly those of other races. Which just gives a choice, but not a capability difference.

So you "only" have to have played a third the time as them?

Likewise with finances, if you're crafty. I played on-off-on-off for about 1.5 years, stopping about early 2009. And in that time, I caught up with the fortunes of many players who were playing since release, despite not really playing that much because of a few tricks involving acquiring a T2 BPO. You need to identify a way to get money besides 'shoot NPC, get loot', and exploit it for the billions and billions needed for capital ships, endless Tech2 hulls, and whatnot. It's not that hard, and people do it.

So you either won CCP's Space Lottery, or you mugged someone who did - that's hardly a realistic means to financial security. You might as well suggest playing the Powerball or ganking the winner of his ticket as a realistic soloution to real-life money woes.

[Nephtys]

So you "only" have to have played a third the time as them?

So? If you played 'only' a mere tenth as much as them, you'd be able to fly an Interceptor or Interdictor just as capably, and have important squad roles. What DO you want? Instant gratification? Or an unending system of gear grinding?

So you either won CCP's Space Lottery, or you mugged someone who did - that's hardly a realistic means to financial security. You might as well suggest playing the Powerball or ganking the winner of his ticket as a realistic soloution to real-life money woes.

Hardly. I invested in something that proved fruitful, by identifying a research field that nobody put any points in, dumped it, grabbed my BPO, and traded up until I had something that printed money. If that isn't your thing, there's many, many other ways to make gobs of money in that game. Or is this all too difficult for your tastes? I mean, grinding mobs for dough isn't exactly the most mentally challenging experience in any game. And even if I seized the BPO, what would that change? It'd be seeing an opportunity, and taking it due to someone else's carelessness. It's not against the law or rules.

[Losonti Tokash]

It's not against the law or rules.

This is the problem. He wants the game itself to protect him from his own stupidity, of which he clearly has in abundance. Seriously, you couldn't afford an EVEmail because you put your entire net worth into one ship which you were too dumb to fly effectively? It's fucking amazing to me that you remember to breathe.

[Stark]

Come on, he's just a coward; he totally ignores the utter nonsense of their being no scope for RP and simply says he's afraid of PVP, and would rather use max-level characters to solo runs in WoW because easy = fun.

But... only high level guys can do that... so ... that's no RP basis... or ... something? I guess he'll just ignore that there is, in fact, massive scope for you to do hilariously underpowered missions and do nothing but read the fluff and RP with your mates while the NPCs are unable to break your tank.

That is, if he even knows how to fit jack shit. Remember 'RP support' = 'dress up like a woman' and 'walk around' even though those things are in fact not roleplaying at all, and the EVE community supports all kinds of fluff and event generation. But wait, it's 'psycopaths' and 'mugging', rather than 'piracy' or 'politics' or 'capitalism'. Turns out he actually can't roleplay for shit?

He's just an idiot and a liar and a coward. He's HILARIOUS. He seriously doesn't know how to make money and thinks mining the way to go? He complains that missions are repetitive, where in WoW they are LITERALLY one million fedex quests, just like EVE? That he's now become mega-defensive is just the icing on the cake.

[Serafina]

No, Stark, all roleplaying must be about epic events, because there is totally no way that playing a small guy who makes an important job (say, running important, small freight trough hostile territory) but gets his ass handed to him by stronger players is fun or an RP-possibility. Spoiler

Do i HAVE to say Han Solo?

Or an peaceful explorer who is only lightly armed and has to rely on friends to do his job? Spoiler

Hmm...Star Trek anyone?

Or a small fighter who guards the bigger ships? Spoiler

Any fighter pilot in Star Wars?

Nope, these are all too lame - you have to be the big hero for RP

[Stark]

But that's it, EVE -has- those giant epic evens all over the mainpage news channels, that you can actually participate in. By 'RP' he just means 'do really underlevelled raids solo' and 'dress up like a woman', instead of 'do dangerous things that may lead to a major loss to shape the universe'. There's a whole channel in the game for gamemastered events!

There is certainly no scope for anything out in lowsec or 0.0 that isn't constant 'murder' and 'pillage', even if we don't romantically describe that s commerce warfare or privateering because we're cowards.

[Losonti Tokash]

But that's it, EVE -has- those giant epic evens all over the mainpage news channels, that you can actually participate in. By 'RP' he just means 'do really underlevelled raids solo' and 'dress up like a woman', instead of 'do dangerous things that may lead to a major loss to shape the universe'. There's a whole channel in the game for gamemastered events!

There is certainly no scope for anything out in lowsec or 0.0 that isn't constant 'murder' and 'pillage', even if we don't romantically describe that s commerce warfare or privateering because we're cowards.

Man, I originally made a living just as a courier and blowing my way across lowsec. If it goes well you wouldn't even see anyone but it was always one of the most exciting moments in the game when you're aligning to the next gate while 10 people are trying to lock on you.

[ShadowDragon8685]

So? If you played 'only' a mere tenth as much as them, you'd be able to fly an Interceptor or Interdictor just as capably, and have important squad roles. What DO you want? Instant gratification? Or an unending system of gear grinding?

What do I want? I want to be able to solo. There's a reason I love the hell out of Retribution Paladins in World of Warcraft; it's the most soloable class and spec in the game. I don't want to be shackled to the whims and designs and baroque self-styled lording of corporate/guild higher-ups.

So you either won CCP's Space Lottery, or you mugged someone who did - that's hardly a realistic means to financial security. You might as well suggest playing the Powerball or ganking the winner of his ticket as a realistic soloution to real-life money woes.

Hardly. I invested in something that proved fruitful, by identifying a research field that nobody put any points in, dumped it, grabbed my BPO, and traded up until I had something that printed money. If that isn't your thing, there's many, many other ways to make gobs of money in that game. Or is this all too difficult for your tastes? I mean, grinding mobs for dough isn't exactly the most mentally challenging experience in any game.

I want a game to have fun with, not to stress me out more. I get enough of that knocking on doors on behalf of the government and having pistol-wearing irate assholes tell me "I don't care why you're here, you need to leave" and worrying about the fact that my employment by nature is transient and trying to figure out how I can sink my claws in deep enough to wrangle full-time work out of it.

So after all of that, coming home and angsting and wringing my hands over whether this-or-that ISK-scheme will bear fruit or blow up in my face doesn't seem like a whole hell of a lot of fun.

And even if I seized the BPO, what would that change? It'd be seeing an opportunity, and taking it due to someone else's carelessness. It's not against the law or rules.

And this is another reason I hate EvE: in any other MMORPG on the planet, if another player defrauds you of everything that's yours, it will be considered an exploit at best, they will be punished and possibly permanently banned, and your things returned to you. CCP shrugs their shoulders and says "sucks to be you."

Why do you think WoW guilds aren't so paranoid about "infiltrators." Even if someone manages to gank the vault, Blizzard will fix things because that's against the TOS; whereas for EvE, the big corps go through ridiculous background checks to make sure you're not someone who's trying to rip them off or get intel into their stuff for a rival corp.

When gameplay starts to resemble real-life cloak and dagger shit to the point where they try to pry into your real life, things have gotten too serious. Yeesh!

This is the problem. He wants the game itself to protect him from his own stupidity,

Quite frankly, yes, I do. A game is supposed to be fun, and to have fun you experiment with something. And anyone who knows a damn thing about experimentation knows that trial and error is inevitable, with most of it likely to be Error. In World of Warcraft, you can fuck-up royal and be back on your feet in twenty minutes at the most and down a slug of change, and that's only if you really retardedly get your corpse lost somewhere you can't recover it, like down the magma of Blackrock mountain's hub, or in the middle of the ocean beyond your ghost-self's range to run out and get you and swim back from the deeps.

of which he clearly has in abundance. Seriously, you couldn't afford an EVEmail because you put your entire net worth into one ship which you were too dumb to fly effectively? It's fucking amazing to me that you remember to breathe.

Feel free to fuck yourself with a rusty wire brush. At the time I left the first time, I was infuriated with my corpmates hammering me to learn nothing but learning skills and not getting to DO ANYTHING. So yes, I got frustrated, trained up to cruisers, blew it all on a cruiser and took it out to do some low-level runs and let off some steam.

No, nobody told me that was a very bad idea. I didn't realize that until I was hip-deep in the shit and floating around in a pod, and broke. I was fucking sick and tired of mining for endless stretches of hours, watching another endless learning 5 grind up towards what seemed like it was never gonna get to, and being told to keep at it.

Come on, he's just a coward; he totally ignores the utter nonsense of their being no scope for RP and simply says he's afraid of PVP, and would rather use max-level characters to solo runs in WoW because easy = fun.

Why yes, I do find it fun, in WoW, to go back to those places that gave me such a bitch of a time at level 40 with a maxxed and tiered 80 and solo them all. Great way to let off steam.

But... only high level guys can do that... so ... that's no RP basis... or ... something? I guess he'll just ignore that there is, in fact, massive scope for you to do hilariously underpowered missions and do nothing but read the fluff and RP with your mates while the NPCs are unable to break your tank.

My point is there's no fucking equavilent in EvE. There's no storyline to run, only endless proceedurally-generated identical missions and PvP paranoia.

That is, if he even knows how to fit jack shit. Remember 'RP support' = 'dress up like a woman' and 'walk around' even though those things are in fact not roleplaying at all, and the EVE community supports all kinds of fluff and event generation. But wait, it's 'psycopaths' and 'mugging', rather than 'piracy' or 'politics' or 'capitalism'. Turns out he actually can't roleplay for shit?

Turns out I don't consider PvP to be RPing, because it's almost always a psychopathic mugging by a paranoid band of lunatics who take umbridge to you have the gall to try and fly through "their" space. That's not RP support.

There IS no RP support in EvE, as I've already demonstrated. No, being the first player to do something and get your name in a newspost doesn't count. RP support is things like WoW's many (many) holidays, selection of RP clothes and stuff. (WoW's selection isn't so good, to be honest, SWG is much better at this, but EvE is completely devoid of this kind of thing.)

There's no roleplaying involved in EvE. The huge corps are all metagaming assholes who refer to their characters as 'toons', wouldn't know what the fuck 'in character' is, let alone how to differentiate it from 'out of character,' and type in annoying fucking AIM-speek. That is not roleplaying, unless you presume that everyone is roleplaying a brain-damaged violent lunatic!

He's just an idiot and a liar and a coward. He's HILARIOUS. He seriously doesn't know how to make money and thinks mining the way to go? He complains that missions are repetitive, where in WoW they are LITERALLY one million fedex quests, just like EVE? That he's now become mega-defensive is just the icing on the cake.

I never claimed WoW's FedEx quests were very interesting. At least they do constitue a build-up to a story, though, and usually culminate in some kind of encounter that feels pretty damn epic when you get to it - in EvE, all you get is another iteration of a proceedurally-generated "go here, blow up generated enemies, come back and get your generated random reward."

No, Stark, all roleplaying must be about epic events, because there is totally no way that playing a small guy who makes an important job (say, running important, small freight trough hostile territory) but gets his ass handed to him by stronger players is fun or an RP-possibility.

Getting your ass handed to you generally isn't very fun.

Spoiler

Do i HAVE to say Han Solo?

And when, exactly, did Captain Solo get his ass handed to him, get the Falcon blown up and barely escape with his life and his first mate in the escape pod - oh right, that never happened. He also got embedded straight into the middle of a ridiculously over-the-top war and it can safely be said that after Luke Skywalker, Captain Solo has the most right to paint a Death Star on his canopy since he's the one who blew Darth Frigging Vader off Skywalker's six at the last possible second.

Or an peaceful explorer who is only lightly armed and has to rely on friends to do his job? Spoiler

Hmm...Star Trek anyone?

What are you talking about? The Enterprise has always been one of Starfleet's biggest, most heavily-armed and most capable ships, in all of her iterations.

Or a small fighter who guards the bigger ships? Spoiler

Any fighter pilot in Star Wars?

I dunno about you, but I don't particularly relish the idea of taking on the role of one of those anonymous TIE fighter pilots who swarm everywhere and die as soon as some Rebel's gunsights so much as looks at them funny.

Nope, these are all too lame - you have to be the big hero for RP

Captain Solo and the crews of the Enterprises are the Big Damn Heroes, in case you've taken leave of your senses and need to be reminded.

But that's it, EVE -has- those giant epic evens all over the mainpage news channels, that you can actually participate in.

Sure. If you're an elder member of some corp with the money and skill to force your way onto EvE's frontpage or get really, really fucking lucky in their Space Lottery du Jour. They also only happen once, so if you miss your chance, tough shit, you're a nobody.

By 'RP' he just means 'do really underlevelled raids solo' and 'dress up like a woman', instead of 'do dangerous things that may lead to a major loss to shape the universe'. There's a whole channel in the game for gamemastered events!

-Doing underlevelled raids solo certainly can be RPing, but it's kind of dull unless you take a like-minded friend along. Whereas some of the most fun I've had in WoW was being one of two level 80, geared Paladins going through the Blackrock Mountain instances and beating down on bosses which were meant to be 5-man hellish affairs with a combination of teamwork and overwhelming firepower.

-Oi, you want to knock it off? I happen to take a great deal of pride in customizing my characters' looks and coming up with outfit schemes and what-not. If you don't like it, that's up to you, so why the fuck don't you lay off those who do?! I happen to think that was without a doubt SWG's best point, the crazy amount of customization possible, down to being able to reshape character's faces and bodies in-game. If it's not your thing it's not, but shut up with the fucking coming down on it.

-A channel. Big fucking deal.

There is certainly no scope for anything out in lowsec or 0.0 that isn't constant 'murder' and 'pillage', even if we don't romantically describe that s commerce warfare or privateering because we're cowards.

I've already made it clear I have no interest in PvP. You want to kindly take the "lol coward" shit and CRAM IT?

Man, I originally made a living just as a courier and blowing my way across lowsec. If it goes well you wouldn't even see anyone but it was always one of the most exciting moments in the game when you're aligning to the next gate while 10 people are trying to lock on you.

Exciting is hardly the word I would use.

This is really ridiculous. I get told I don't know how to roleplay (been at this over a decade,) and don't know how to have fun right. What, is this the EvE Appreciation Society or something? Fine. You want me to like EvE so damn bad?

I'll do the reactivation thing, claim the new ship. I'll give someone or multiple someones who've appointed themselves the Defenders of EvE the five days to show me "how to have fun right." If at the end of those five days I liked it enough to re-subscribe, I'll concede that you know better than me and buy you a time-card. If not, you concede that EvE isn't very fun for everybody, and does not have any support for the kind of roleplay I find fun.

Anybody want to take me up on it? I've got a long-ish weekend coming.

[Stark]

Dude, is he just saying 'there IS no RP support in EVE'?

Hilariously he hates EVE because it's hard to get on the mainpage (ps hundreds of thousands of guys and he thinks it should eb easy to be famous) but in WoW there is literally no way you can ever do anything ever to change anything. That's good, because to him RP is 'dress up like a woman' and 'talk shit about running an underlevelled instance'.

Remember, there's only a channel... for organising and participating in sweeping RP events. But ... I though EVE had no RP support? How does he think you're supposed ot find out about the GM'd events without joining the channel where they talk about it?

Highlight of this post - people who use the word 'toons' can't roleplay.

EDIT - actually, how does 'RP' even work with replaying a part of a story? 'remember ye olde second time I killed the lich king, he said unto me 'fucking christ you're level 60 i'm domed' and i was heard to reply 'yea verily you are my bitch''?

[Losonti Tokash]

Highlight of this post - people who use the word 'toons' can't roleplay.

Or that it's exclusive to Eve.

Shadow, I don't think anyone will take you up on your offer, especially since you have a personal (and financial) interest in being a total bitch about the whole thing.

That, and no one actually cares if you like Eve or not. But if you say stuff that's blatantly wrong or mind bogglingly stupid, you'll get called out on it.

[Serafina]

What do I want? I want to be able to solo. There's a reason I love the hell out of Retribution Paladins in World of Warcraft; it's the most soloable class and spec in the game. I don't want to be shackled to the whims and designs and baroque self-styled lording of corporate/guild higher-ups.

Then why do you play a fucking MMO?
Sure, sometimes solo-stuff is nice - but if you are only into solo-stuff, why play an MMO?
Unless it's a soloactivity against other players, such as blockade running

Quite frankly, yes, I do. A game is supposed to be fun, and to have fun you experiment with something. And anyone who knows a damn thing about experimentation knows that trial and error is inevitable, with most of it likely to be Error. In World of Warcraft, you can fuck-up royal and be back on your feet in twenty minutes at the most and down a slug of change, and that's only if you really retardedly get your corpse lost somewhere you can't recover it, like down the magma of Blackrock mountain's hub, or in the middle of the ocean beyond your ghost-self's range to run out and get you and swim back from the deeps.

You have never, ever been in a high-level raid in WoW. EVER.
Else you would fucking up has far more consequences than "oh noes, i lost a bit of money". And if you fly only affordable stuff in EVE, it's the same bloody thing anyway.

My point is there's no fucking equavilent in EvE. There's no storyline to run, only endless proceedurally-generated identical missions and PvP paranoia.

A storyline is rather boring if a million people have done it before you already. Where are the stories to tell?
Now in EVE, i could tell awesome stories even after i only played for two months - how i hunted down a pirate together with a friend, how i blew up that really dangerous NPC and found something that gave me a shitload of money, how i held off attackers against our miners and freighters and saved millions of ISK and so on.
Only one of those was solo, but who the fuck cares? All those stories are unique and far more memorable than some random storyline.

Turns out I don't consider PvP to be RPing, because it's almost always a psychopathic mugging by a paranoid band of lunatics who take umbridge to you have the gall to try and fly through "their" space. That's not RP support.

There IS no RP support in EvE, as I've already demonstrated. No, being the first player to do something and get your name in a newspost doesn't count. RP support is things like WoW's many (many) holidays, selection of RP clothes and stuff. (WoW's selection isn't so good, to be honest, SWG is much better at this, but EvE is completely devoid of this kind of thing.)

There is. You said yourself that YOU don'T consider PvP an RP-activity for some reason, but others do. Epic battles are the best way to have epic stories, and NPC-battles get kinda repetetive (the reason i quit WoW, the bosses got boring).

Getting your ass handed to you generally isn't very fun.

Is it...really?

And when, exactly, did Captain Solo get his ass handed to him, get the Falcon blown up and barely escape with his life and his first mate in the escape pod - oh right, that never happened. He also got embedded straight into the middle of a ridiculously over-the-top war and it can safely be said that after Luke Skywalker, Captain Solo has the most right to paint a Death Star on his canopy since he's the one who blew Darth Frigging Vader off Skywalker's six at the last possible second.

And you suppose smuggling is not an interesting activity? Well, guess what, you are wrong.

What are you talking about? The Enterprise has always been one of Starfleet's biggest, most heavily-armed and most capable ships, in all of her iterations.

You don't get analogies, do you?

I dunno about you, but I don't particularly relish the idea of taking on the role of one of those anonymous TIE fighter pilots who swarm everywhere and die as soon as some Rebel's gunsights so much as looks at them funny.

Why not? Oh, right, you are a carebear. Sorry, forgot that.

Look, VI without a P, you simply see no RP-activities in EVE because RP can not be risky for you. Others consider that boring, and RP is NOT about playing out a predetermined story. It's about telling your own.

[Stark]

Serafina, he's obviously the sort of person who doesn't want to make his own story; he wants to follow one created by smeone else. When he played paper RP I bet he used the setting as written too, and boxed adventures.

[Artemas]

That presupposes that he had friends to play with. I think the entire crux of his real arguement, is that he wants a game to play match-maker for him, and round up some friends to play internet spaceships with. If he actually had compatriots that didn't avoid him like a plague of mental deficiency, then he would just start up a private server for fucking freelancer or something.

But he can't, so he's here, and we have this.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Hilariously he hates EVE because it's hard to get on the mainpage (ps hundreds of thousands of guys and he thinks it should eb easy to be famous) but in WoW there is literally no way you can ever do anything ever to change anything. That's good, because to him RP is 'dress up like a woman' and 'talk shit about running an underlevelled instance'.

You know what?

Go fuck yourself. I happen to prefer RPing as female characters. That doesn't mean I'm incapable of RPing as men, but isn't that the point of roleplaying - casting yourself in the role of someone you are not?

Also, go fuck yourself as regards running underleveled instances. I whooped up on my fair share of the hard shit, but I like being able to go and solo lower-level instances just because it's fun.

Remember, there's only a channel... for organising and participating in sweeping RP events. But ... I though EVE had no RP support? How does he think you're supposed ot find out about the GM'd events without joining the channel where they talk about it?

Yeah, that's nice. Where's the paint kits to customize my starship? Huh? Where's the options to configure my character's wardrobe and get out of the damn pod and take a walk around?

Highlight of this post - people who use the word 'toons' can't roleplay.

No, they can't. People who genuinely refer to their characters as 'toons' are universally crap RPers in my experience.

EDIT - actually, how does 'RP' even work with replaying a part of a story? 'remember ye olde second time I killed the lich king, he said unto me 'fucking christ you're level 60 i'm domed' and i was heard to reply 'yea verily you are my bitch''?

You really are retarded, aren't you? For one thing, you can just condense all the times you've done a given instance into that one really crazy kick-ass time you did it - or, you know... The Lich King just ran to a spirit healer, rezzed, and ran back to his shitadel like a bitch? If it works for heroes, it can work for him.

Highlight of this post - people who use the word 'toons' can't roleplay.

Or that it's exclusive to Eve.

Oh, it's certainly not, but as far as I know, it originated on EvE, and that kind of attitude is most common on EvE.

Shadow, I don't think anyone will take you up on your offer, especially since you have a personal (and financial) interest in being a total bitch about the whole thing.

Oh yeah, like I'm really so hard-up I can't afford a fucking $16.00 slug if I get proven wrong?

I would love to be proven wrong. I would love an excuse to have some fun with the game for a change. I never found it fun, and the assertion that Stark, et al, are making is that I don't know how to have fun right.

That, and no one actually cares if you like Eve or not. But if you say stuff that's blatantly wrong or mind bogglingly stupid, you'll get called out on it.

Blatantly wrong? Fuck you. I've said nothing incorrect that was not a misunderstanding based on the fact that I haven't played EvE since 2007 and hence, based on old and outdated knowledge.

What do I want? I want to be able to solo. There's a reason I love the hell out of Retribution Paladins in World of Warcraft; it's the most soloable class and spec in the game. I don't want to be shackled to the whims and designs and baroque self-styled lording of corporate/guild higher-ups.

Then why do you play a fucking MMO?
Sure, sometimes solo-stuff is nice - but if you are only into solo-stuff, why play an MMO?
Unless it's a soloactivity against other players, such as blockade running

I said I want to be able to solo. I don't want to be forced to join a corporation or a guild to get ahead, which is bad in EvE since you're more or less obliged to join a player-run corp if you don't want to suck.

You have never, ever been in a high-level raid in WoW. EVER.
Else you would fucking up has far more consequences than "oh noes, i lost a bit of money". And if you fly only affordable stuff in EVE, it's the same bloody thing anyway.

I found 5 and 10-man heroics to be my butter zone in WoW, thank you very much. And it's not the same thing in EvE, since even if you can afford to replace everything lock, stock, and barrel, there's a vast difference between a 25, 50, even 75G repair slug, and about 20% of your net worth, especially since you then have to collect all that gear in the first place. You lose about two hours and you can pretty much forget about getting on with what you were doing.

A storyline is rather boring if a million people have done it before you already. Where are the stories to tell?

That's the beauty of it - it doesn't matter how many others have done something, you have, too. You're still the hero who saved the isles of Azuremyst and Bloodmyst, or the legendary warrior who struck down Arthas.

Now in EVE, i could tell awesome stories even after i only played for two months - how i hunted down a pirate together with a friend, how i blew up that really dangerous NPC and found something that gave me a shitload of money, how i held off attackers against our miners and freighters and saved millions of ISK and so on.

And who cares?! Your 'adventures' are little more than tavern tales - you shot up one of ten thousand EvE players with a friend. Big fucking deal. Two hours later he was back, refitted, and hunting for more newbs to pwn. That's not an epic tale, that's just one of a hundred thousand old war stories.

Only one of those was solo, but who the fuck cares? All those stories are unique and far more memorable than some random storyline.

Hello? Are we talking the same language?

YOUR stories are the random ones! Nobody outside of the group of "people who were there" and "his friends" knows who the pirate you popped is, whereas in our culture you have to have been living under a rock to be under the age of 25 and not know who Arthas, the Lich King, is.

There is. You said yourself that YOU don'T consider PvP an RP-activity for some reason, but others do. Epic battles are the best way to have epic stories, and NPC-battles get kinda repetetive (the reason i quit WoW, the bosses got boring).

And unless you're in one of the mega-mega corps where they're throwing around Titans like most people would see Battleships, the battles you get into amount to "border skirmishes." They may have been cool for the ones who were there, but they're not legendary - and again, I don't like PvP. It's not roleplaying, it's straight-up numbers.

Getting your ass handed to you generally isn't very fun.

Is it...really?

Okay, conceded, but only as far as Dwarf Fortress is concerned, and only because it's fun to watch a Dwarf go bonkers because her idiotic cat wandered into the elf-trap, get fried by the magma, bludgeon her husband to death with her infant, then go stark-raving mad with grief and start trying to kill everybody in the Fort - and she's a Legendary Wrestler wearing adamantine artifact full plate.

That's the kind of ass-handing you can laugh at, like Nero fiddling when Rome burnt; cackling, hands up in the air.

And you suppose smuggling is not an interesting activity? Well, guess what, you are wrong.

Funnily enough, outside of the job he took to smuggle the main heroes, we never saw Solo doing any smuggling. It's not exactly an epic feat. Interesting, yes, but ultimately it amounts to long-distance trucking and hoping nobody looks in the back.

You don't get analogies, do you?

No, I didn't, because your analogy didn't make sense to me.

Why not? Oh, right, you are a carebear. Sorry, forgot that.

You say that like that's a bad thing. Oh right, you're mocking me because you think your way of having fun is superior to my way of having fun. Sorry, forgot that.

Look, VI without a P, you simply see no RP-activities in EVE because RP can not be risky for you. Others consider that boring, and RP is NOT about playing out a predetermined story. It's about telling your own.

Sure, but that doesn't mean it has to be a PvP story, especially when the stakes aren't "you lose and the other guy gloats," they're "the other guy ruins you and you lose damn-near everything." And don't talk to me about flying fits you can't afford, I'm talking about what happens when one corp gets stomped by another.

Serafina, he's obviously the sort of person who doesn't want to make his own story; he wants to follow one created by smeone else. When he played paper RP I bet he used the setting as written too, and boxed adventures.

As it happens, I'm currently neck-deep in the middle of conjuring up the modern world as an alternate setting for Exalted second edition. No, not Scion - Exalted, Modern.

But when I'm paying $16.00 a month, I expect more support than "here's a box, start by imagining the sand."

That presupposes that he had friends to play with. I think the entire crux of his real arguement, is that he wants a game to play match-maker for him, and round up some friends to play internet spaceships with. If he actually had compatriots that didn't avoid him like a plague of mental deficiency, then he would just start up a private server for fucking freelancer or something.

Go fuck yourself. Seriously, just yank it back as hard as you can and shove it up your ass. You may need to cut off your testicles in order to acomplish that feat - go ahead. I'll wait.

I have plenty of friends to play PnP RPGs with. But I don't like being forced to find a huge corp/guild.

But he can't, so he's here, and we have this.

See also the comment about castrating yourself and shoving your cock up your ass. I started this thread asking about non-MMO space games. I cite the fact that I said upfront I didn't like EvE in the OP.

[Ghost Rider]

LMAO...keep the comedy running. And really, you're throwing yet more fuel to the fire. Honest advice? Leave and let people go off into other territory. This just leads to everyone laughing at you more or wonder of your intelligence more.

Onto the couple of bits I found funny. I'm sure someone will shred your weakass EVE reasons of why you don't like it(we get it, but you're making baseless accusations towards the game and keep going pounding your chest in mock anger)

For WoW : You ENJOY doing old shit? Must be because you never did it when it was new. Only reason to do it now is because you're so fucking bored, you've decided that soloing Molten Bore or whichever raid or you really absolutely want that extra special horse that half of Ironforge has. Other then that it is getting a laugh, go for Insane in the Membrane or...don't play WoW after fucking around. Really, the old shit isn't even good for money unless you're exploiting the AH because hitting the gold maximum on one character is just not enough.

And for RPing if you use the raid bosses resurrecting by running to a spirit healer as a reason, you're a fucking dumber role player then most here are getting at.

[Stark]

Here are some condensed versions for the tl;dr crowd.

You know what?

Go fuck yourself. I happen to prefer RPing as female characters. That doesn't mean I'm incapable of RPing as men, but isn't that the point of roleplaying - casting yourself in the role of someone you are not?

Also, go fuck yourself as regards running underleveled instances. I whooped up on my fair share of the hard shit, but I like being able to go and solo lower-level instances just because it's fun.

'I like it to be really easy'

'RPing is being something you're not, but never a pirate or trader or scout or miner. Only WIZARDS'

Yeah, that's nice. Where's the paint kits to customize my starship? Huh? Where's the options to configure my character's wardrobe and get out of the damn pod and take a walk around?

'There is no RP support at all in EVE. All that support that exists is irrelevant because you can't adjust your characters wardrobe'.

No, they can't. People who genuinely refer to their characters as 'toons' are universally crap RPers in my experience.

'I am a massive bigot who judges people by the first MMO they played'.

You really are retarded, aren't you? For one thing, you can just condense all the times you've done a given instance into that one really crazy kick-ass time you did it - or, you know... The Lich King just ran to a spirit healer, rezzed, and ran back to his shitadel like a bitch? If it works for heroes, it can work for him.

'RPing repetitive things in WoW is awesome, but RPing repetitive things in EVE is impossible because you can't dress like a woman'.

Blatantly wrong? Fuck you. I've said nothing incorrect that was not a misunderstanding based on the fact that I haven't played EvE since 2007 and hence, based on old and outdated knowledge.

'Being ignorant isn't being wrong; ignoring giant screenshots proving me wrong is totally fine'.

I said I want to be able to solo. I don't want to be forced to join a corporation or a guild to get ahead, which is bad in EvE since you're more or less obliged to join a player-run corp if you don't want to suck.

'You can't do anything solo in EVE because I say so. All those soloers out there are lying'.

I found 5 and 10-man heroics to be my butter zone in WoW, thank you very much. And it's not the same thing in EvE, since even if you can afford to replace everything lock, stock, and barrel, there's a vast difference between a 25, 50, even 75G repair slug, and about 20% of your net worth, especially since you then have to collect all that gear in the first place. You lose about two hours and you can pretty much forget about getting on with what you were doing.

'All PVP in EVE involves a large proportion of your net worth because ... something'.

That's the beauty of it - it doesn't matter how many others have done something, you have, too. You're still the hero who saved the isles of Azuremyst and Bloodmyst, or the legendary warrior who struck down Arthas.

'Repetitive and bland samey experience is excellent fodder for RP in WOW, but horrible cuntery in EVE'.
'It's awesome to do epic events that everyone else does, but terrible to be able to work to actual achievements to set yourself apart from others'.

And who cares?! Your 'adventures' are little more than tavern tales - you shot up one of ten thousand EvE players with a friend. Big fucking deal. Two hours later he was back, refitted, and hunting for more newbs to pwn. That's not an epic tale, that's just one of a hundred thousand old war stories.

'Tavern tales and talking to your friends is shit in EVE, but is the 'butter zone' in WOW'.
'The Lich King can obviously respawn and that's fine but respawning in EVE means PVP is without consequnce - except those consequences I whinge about'.

Hello? Are we talking the same language?

YOUR stories are the random ones! Nobody outside of the group of "people who were there" and "his friends" knows who the pirate you popped is, whereas in our culture you have to have been living under a rock to be under the age of 25 and not know who Arthas, the Lich King, is.

'If you don't tell tell the same story as everyone else, it's worthless'

And unless you're in one of the mega-mega corps where they're throwing around Titans like most people would see Battleships, the battles you get into amount to "border skirmishes." They may have been cool for the ones who were there, but they're not legendary - and again, I don't like PvP. It's not roleplaying, it's straight-up numbers.

'I have no idea how PVP works in EVE'.

As it happens, I'm currently neck-deep in the middle of conjuring up the modern world as an alternate setting for Exalted second edition. No, not Scion - Exalted, Modern.

But when I'm paying $16.00 a month, I expect more support than "here's a box, start by imagining the sand."

'I will continue to ignore all evidence that I'm dead wrong'.

'RP support = dress like a woman'

[SilverWingedSeraph]

As it happens, I'm currently neck-deep in the middle of conjuring up the modern world as an alternate setting for Exalted second edition. No, not Scion - Exalted, Modern.

As someone who's an avid roleplayer and is especially fond of Exalted, I can't begin to state how horrible this idea is. Exalted with a modern setting makes no kinds of sense. At least in standard Exalted there are occasional threats, like... Warstriders, and giant ass-stomping Primordials, Fair Folk, etc. What the hell are you going to do for a Modern (I presume you mean late 20th, early 21st century Earth when you say "Modern") Exalted setting?

Now, if you were talking Creation fast-forwarded a few hundred years to having modern-era technology... that still doesn't make much sense, because much of their technology is actually already more advanced than ours, but okay, that'd be less silly. But dumping Exalts on Earth, circa 2010, is basically just silly wankery. It wouldn't be like VtM, where they have to hide their existence from humans and lurk in the shadows. There would literally be nothing that could threaten them short of tanks, fighter jets, missiles, etc... and even that's a stretch if they have a Perfect Defense (as any good combat-focused Exalt does).

But I digress, I'm getting off topic. I'll let people get back to mocking you for your complaints about EVE, now.

[Temjin]

I said there was not enough RP support, not that there wasn't enough RPing. You can RP perfectly well with no more a chat client that can handle dice. The point is that in an MMO, I want more support from something I'm paying $15 a month for than I could get from a free chat program like OpenRPG or MapTools. I want things like customization - and "you can buy all the pieces of ++ stat gear you want" is not customization. Customization is things like being able to paint your ship's hull or alter your character's wardrobe. Fluff stuff, like the ability to go for a walk inside a space station - hell, even EnB had that! EnB let you freaking design your ship - sure, it wasn't a whole lot of variety, but it was a damn sight more than EvE, with it's disposable ships.

Are you fucking kidding me? That's you're idea of RP support? Playing dressup and painting your ship?

EVE has more RP support than I've ever seen in a MMO before. You can do whatever the fuck you want in it. You can create whatever the fuck kind of character that you want. Minmatar freedomfighter. Space Pirate. An Amar that's become so corrupted by the Gallente idea of Freedom that he's willing to kill his own kind to protect it.

There's literally so many options. I'm just scratching the surface of the RP possibilities. You create you're own damn storylines.

This is in contrast to WoW, where you're basically stuck playing their storyline. You call this RP'ing, but really it's more akin to playing a standard RPG with other players. You're limited in the characters you make and what you can do with them because of that same storyline.

Compared to EvE, where you do... What, exactly? Go mining and chat with friends to allieviate the mind-numbing realization that you're doing the exact same sort of mind-numbingly repetitive bullshit that in any other situation you would make someone else pay you in order to get you to do it?

Sure, missions can be sort-of fun if you have friends with you, but that's the same thing you just complained about WoW being like; "and the squadron of frigates undocked for the fifteenth time to go frag rogue drone queens and all the while hoping she'll drop precious metals they can salvage from her corpse?"

At least WoW has a somewhat decent selection of RP clothes you can collect if you feel like it. It also has a story of sorts, and while everyone else may have been through that story, at least you have been, too.

Let's try that Amar turncoat example I just came up with...

"Quisling the Amar heads over to Gallente space to start doing missions for various Gallente corporations hoping to worm his way into their trust so he can start reporting classified info back to his Amar spy masters. But as he stays in Gallente space longer he begins to sympathize them, before finally joining a Gallente Militia to protect his new nation."

There, this hypothetical player just created a new char, headed over to gallente space to do some missions to make some isk and gain enough faction standing to sign up for Faction Warfare. All while staying in Character! And I, someone who's never RP'd before in his life, managed to come up with this in just a few minutes.

Show me something in WoW that's comparable. And no, that storyline bullshit they force feed you doesn't count.

It is! Because it is not fun for me. I'm not telling you how to have fun, so kindly refrain from telling me I don't know how to have fun "right".

I'm not telling you how to have fun. I'm telling you that the reasons you gave for disliking the game are absurd. As I said, I wouldn't give a shit if you had just come out and said "Yeah, tried EVE. Didn't like it. It's too filled with douchebags." In fact, I would be surprised if anyone bothered arguing the point. But your reasons basically boiled down "Wah! I want to play dressup! And I want to be protected from my own stupid mistakes because I didn't bother to do any research on the game before I started playing!"

[RedImperator]

I can't believe we found somebody who makes Blayne look pro.

I found 5 and 10-man heroics to be my butter zone in WoW, thank you very much. And it's not the same thing in EvE, since even if you can afford to replace everything lock, stock, and barrel, there's a vast difference between a 25, 50, even 75G repair slug, and about 20% of your net worth, especially since you then have to collect all that gear in the first place. You lose about two hours and you can pretty much forget about getting on with what you were doing.

ROFFLE. I hear nobody keeps spare ships or mods around. Even when I was total fucking noobsauce I could afford to keep a second fitted Kestrel in my hangar.

And 20% of your net worth...who gives a shit? I routinely fly ships that cost more than the contents of my wallet to replace, and I actually PVP in nullsec with them--the difference is, 1) I keep a spare or two, and 2) I don't fly something I couldn't pay for after two or three days of carebearing. And by days, I mean, "Log on, grind missions/null rats while bullshitting on Vent for a few hours, go do something else." Any day-old noob could do the exact same thing. It's just a matter of proportion; stick to frigs and dessies until you can do level IIs, cruisers until level IIIs, etc. As long as he had enough sense not to sink every penny he had into a carebear boat he planned to take to lowsec, he'd do all right--and fucksticks, even under those circumstances, you can grind enough ISK in a fucking Ibis to be at least in a proper frigate again in a few hours.

Look, you don't like the game because you think it's boring, or the UI sucks, or you don't like PVP, or everyone who plays it is an asshole, or you can't paint your ship green or sit in a tavern in a pretty dress, fine. But don't start blaming the game because you were terrible at it.