The stupidest flaw

[adam_grif]

Thing is, how do you get away with something like that if everyone is telepathic? Among themselves, they could be perfectly, utterly law abiding because it's literally impossible to get away with anything.

Based on the tenuous assumption that anybody can read any thoughts of anybody else and that there's no way to hide them? Telepathy is just psychic communication. There's no reason to believe that a telepathic species can't hide information from each other, any more than any other random species. Them being some sort of phychic hivemind with no sense of individuality is NOT supported by any evidence.

Granting your assumption, have there never been any conflicts on their worlds? Does everybody-can-read-everybody's thoughts mean that individual nation states can't form and fight for resources? Does it mean that they have never and can never encounter any other technologically comparable foes that might try such an attack, or they try such an attack on them? Indeed, they obviously can and do think of ways to blow shit up and defeat enemies, so them not ever considering electronic warfare is STILL stupid.

[Vanas]

Is there any source material that implies that these ships have any AA abilities beyond a fighter screen?

IIRC we do see one using a weapon like those on the fighters to destroy helicopter that's attemtping to communicate with them Close Encounters style. So they perhaps do have some anti-air, even if they're mostly reliant on their sheilds and fighters.

Admittedly, I wouldn't put it past them to only have the one gun and use it soley for shooting things that are too close to the bridge windows.

[Coalition]

I'm not so convinced about that. I mean maybe they just never anticipated a planet they're invading trying it on them, but I find it difficult to believe that they would never have thought about malicious software before. Regardless, having every system accessible via remote access from any random fighter is a bit silly, and their inability to to restore their computers from some sort of archived copy indicates that they are massively stupid anyway. Not the first mothership, I mean all the other ones that it's heavily implied just stood there and took it as the humans struck back over the next few days.

I thought they were hitting all the motherships simultaneously, or as close as possible. That was why they were sending the message to all the fighter groups, announcing the attack time.

As to the fighter Apple virus upload, it could be the computer was easy to power up, while the weapons, shields, and propulsion required the broadcast power from a mothership. So they could have been studying the computer for decades (with translation programs) but nothing else. With a translation language, they take the nastiest virii from wherever they can, translate them to alienOS, and copy them to the laptop.

For the infection, the fighter could have been behind the firewalls, so it has easier access. Similar to why corporations don't want people bringing in home disks to run on company machines. They may have firewalls, but most of those are watching the exterior connections. Inside, the programs have an easier time getting past. So the fighter connects to the main ship, connects to the internal network, and they upload supervirii to the alien network, with instructions to replicate past X level, then activate.

Still other targets for the virii (after the shields were down) could have been life support, targeting systems, IFF, main power, communications, etc. I'm sure that would have given the aliens lots of fun if those networks were connected.

[wautd]

Is there any source material that implies that these ships have any AA abilities beyond a fighter screen?

IIRC we do see one using a weapon like those on the fighters to destroy helicopter that's attemtping to communicate with them Close Encounters style. So they perhaps do have some anti-air,

IIRC, that looked more like a fighter bolt being fired out of a fighter hangar rahter than a true AA

Not the first mothership, I mean all the other ones that it's heavily implied just stood there and took it as the humans struck back over the next few days.

I just loved how 1000 shielded alien fighters with limitless ammo can beat 100 human jets, but when unshielded, 1000 alien fighters with limitless ammo get beaten by 100 human jets. Nevermind that those alien fighters had at least the same manoeuvrability and were much more armored (one flew trough a rock formation with no visuable outside damage after all).

I guess all the nations of the world switched to using drunken crop dusters for the final battles, so that must have made all the difference.

[NecronLord]

I just loved how 1000 shielded alien fighters with limitless ammo can beat 100 human jets, but when unshielded, 1000 alien fighters with limitless ammo get beaten by 100 human jets. Nevermind that those alien fighters had at least the same manoeuvrability and were much more armored (one flew trough a rock formation with no visuable outside damage after all).

I guess all the nations of the world switched to using drunken crop dusters for the final battles, so that must have made all the difference.

What gives you that impression? Much like the end of RotJ, it looks like the bad guys fall instantly, but it seems likely that this is mistaken. We see some city destroyers fallen and their mothership taken out. It's quite possible that other ships both city destroyer and invasion barge types, not to mention fighters survived.

Such expansion as the Independance Day franchise has includes ground combat against alien survivors. There could be entire regiments of alien ground troops, their landers, surviving city destroyers, and an entire air corps of fighters and more besides out there, it wouldn't stop the humans proclaiming victory. The aliens could even still win, endor-style catacylsm aside.

[wautd]

I just loved how 1000 shielded alien fighters with limitless ammo can beat 100 human jets, but when unshielded, 1000 alien fighters with limitless ammo get beaten by 100 human jets. Nevermind that those alien fighters had at least the same manoeuvrability and were much more armored (one flew trough a rock formation with no visuable outside damage after all).

I guess all the nations of the world switched to using drunken crop dusters for the final battles, so that must have made all the difference.

What gives you that impression? Much like the end of RotJ, it looks like the bad guys fall instantly, but it seems likely that this is mistaken. We see some city destroyers fallen and their mothership taken out. It's quite possible that other ships both city destroyer and invasion barge types, not to mention fighters survived.

Such expansion as the Independance Day franchise has includes ground combat against alien survivors. There could be entire regiments of alien ground troops, their landers, surviving city destroyers, and an entire air corps of fighters and more besides out there, it wouldn't stop the humans proclaiming victory. The aliens could even still win, endor-style catacylsm aside.

Hmm, good point. The ending of the movie implied a total victory for the humans but I actually never tought there's still the treath of the alien remnants.

edit: Didn't knew there were ID books. Good reviews as well so I think I'm going to check thise one out

[adam_grif]

Holy shit, there's an independence day FRANCHISE?!

[dworkin]

No love for the Borg here? I feel their weakness to things like bullets and knives exists just to show off how tough the heroes are. I feel their daftest weakness is letting beings board and poke round their ship for a good while before bothering to do anything about it.

[Srelex]

Holy shit, there's an independence day FRANCHISE?!

Rumor has it that they're even planning new films.

[Alyx]

Star Trek: Bridge usually being on the most exposed location (top of the ship)

[Srelex]

That's not a flaw exclusive to Star Trek, y'know--to say the least.

[Samuel]

It also isn't really a major flaw if weapons are powerful enough that one or two hits can disable a ship. Or if your enemies aren't accurate enough to target specific sections of your ship. Not a bright idea though.

[Skylon]

That's not a flaw exclusive to Star Trek, y'know--to say the least.

Indeed. The best case against it comes from "Return of the Jedi".

[Sarevok]

Its stupid in Star Trek because their bridges are sensible. There are no windows or similar fragile shit in their bridges. What difference would it make to the audience if the bridge was buried inside the ship ? That was what I always I assumed untill I searched for behind the scenes information regarding trek ships on the web.

[Samuel]

Its stupid in Star Trek because their bridges are sensible. There are no windows or similar fragile shit in their bridges. What difference would it make to the audience if the bridge was buried inside the ship ? That was what I always I assumed untill I searched for behind the scenes information regarding trek ships on the web.

If you watched Nemisis you find out the view screen is all that seperates the bridge from space (try not to think about it). However, even Trek is not usually that bad, so I prefer to ignore the amazing stupidity of that scene.

[Zaune]

At least one Trek novel actually handwaves this with, "Go argue with tradition". Though it's not siting the bridge where it is that's illogical if we assume the viewscreen is transparent when not in use, which it certainly seemed like it was in the series; even if all navigational aids are functioning nominally, there's no substitute for being able to see where you're going with the Mark 1 Eyeball.

Stationing everyone qualified to conn the ship and their equivalent of Principal Warfare Officer all in a location optimised for seeing where you're going, and thus unavoidably exposed to incoming fire, is another matter.

[Batman]

I'd like some evidence for the viewscreen being transparent when not in use, especially as all that would enable you to see would be the circuitry BEHIND it, or possibly the compartments beyond it, because the viewscreen is most certainly NOT set against the outer hull of the ship.
Not that I see why that would be an advantage, given the Mk1 Eyeball is moderately useless in space combat.

[Isolder74]

In Star Trek The Motion Picture, the Screen was seen off and it wasn't transparent. It looked like nothing more then a blank wall with the image projected or displayed onto it.

[LionElJonson]

Is there any source material that implies that these ships have any AA abilities beyond a fighter screen?

Doubtful. It's not like it's a long running franchise, so the movie is the only thing to work with.

There was a series of novels, IIRC; I remember reading one as a child wherein the aliens, after being shot down, proceeded to make a ground invasion, captured an Iraqi bioweapon (which was, IIRC, an unholy hybrid of anthrax and ebola than made the infected person spew infected blood from every orifice), and planned to inject it into the ground water through a giant root-thing they grew from the remains of their crashed ship.

Also, their infantry guns fire based off of telepathic signals, and you need at least two people thinking "fire" in order for it to fire. For the aliens, this isn't so difficult, either due to their telepathic abilities or their suits of living power armor (it was never expanded upon, IIRC). For the humans, you needed two people running around and holding it.

Can't remember what the air combat was like, though I think there was a scene where the human pilots used the fact that the Dead Sea is below sea level to their advantage. It's been over a decade since I read it, though.

[Uraniun235]

At least one Trek novel actually handwaves this with, "Go argue with tradition". Though it's not siting the bridge where it is that's illogical if we assume the viewscreen is transparent when not in use, which it certainly seemed like it was in the series

Which series? Pretty sure TOS has shown the viewscreen as blank when it's off. TNG doesn't have a screen per se, it's a big holographic tank.

[Imperial528]

I like Doctor Who, but the idea of the Daleks being able to conquer anything through the methods seen in the show (Space ships arrive, space ships deploy Daleks, Daleks perform ground invasion) really seems just plain stupid to me.

Here's the only advantages of the Dalek design that I can see:
Laser weapon
Bullet-melting shield
Ability to traverse most terrain
Limited armor (small-arms stuff)

And the weaknesses I have observed:
Man-portable energy weapons penetrate shield and armor
Projectiles of low enough velocity are unaffected by shield. (Notably large rocks, which have actually dented the armor, and things as fast as paint ball gun shots.)

I would like to know what would happen if an RPG, grenade, or anti-armor explosive were fired at one, since I have not seen any episodes where that has occurred.

In summary, to me Daleks appear to be glass cannons crewed by an illogical mutant. And hence, it seems like a large flaw to me that they could threaten anyone armed with energy weapons or explosive weapons, or any interstellar civilization for that matter.

As for other sci-fi, in Star Trek I find the Federation's complete lack of body armor to be a major problem for them, especially when I'm watching the show and a character says "damage on decks --" I always wonder if they lose more people to EPS conduits exploding or the vacuum itself, both of which could be prevented by just a simple suit that can let the user live for a bit in a vacuum, since they use force fields so much I don't think it would be hard to project a force field as a type of space helmet. Then again, EPS conduits themselves are pretty stupid, although discussing that flaw is like beating a dead horse I guess. Of course, damage on certain decks could surely be prevented by actually putting armor on their ships.

Come to think of it, the UFP would lose terribly to the Daleks, since once one gets on the ground they're fucked, as I doubt that hand phasers could do shit to Dalek armor seeing how it can't do shit to sheet metal wall plating.

[LionElJonson]

Odds are, EPS conduits are used because solid metal wiring would overheat and melt from the waste heat of the energies passing through it. No reason not to convert it to lower-power transmission media for things like computers and consoles, though.

Also, conventional armor is probably useless against phasers, since they just up and disintegrate things with some sort of nuclear treknobabble chain reaction, so if you get hit, you're taking that damage no matter how much armor you have. Well, barring some sort of supertech like the Planet Destroyer's impenetrable skin.

[CaptJodan]

Also, conventional armor is probably useless against phasers, since they just up and disintegrate things with some sort of nuclear treknobabble chain reaction, so if you get hit, you're taking that damage no matter how much armor you have. Well, barring some sort of supertech like the Planet Destroyer's impenetrable skin.

Or if you had some packing crate plating handy.

Really, no. At minimum, armor would allow you to force your enemy to ramp up the power on their phaser and severely limit their shots. At most, if you line it with materials that the NDF chain reaction has trouble working on, you save the wearer's life even on level 16.

[Sea Skimmer]

Or if you had some packing crate plating handy.

Really, no. At minimum, armor would allow you to force your enemy to ramp up the power on their phaser and severely limit their shots. At most, if you line it with materials that the NDF chain reaction has trouble working on, you save the wearer's life even on level 16.

Didn't Federation Redshirts have some body armor like vests in one of the movies? Star Trek III I think.

[Batman]

IIRC they had something resembling body armour in SEVERAL of the TOS movies. But then the TOS movies ALSO had protective clothing for the guys in engineering and field jackets actually worthy of the name.