What are the good space games to be had?

[Serafina]

Oh, about soloing: I soloed my way up to bloody battleships, just by hunting the right NPCs in 0.0 and a few missions.
And i had the money for them way before i had the skills, and i did not play that much.

And character customization?
Who the hell gives a shit? It's not like WoW has gear customisation, and the choices for your character are hardly excessive.

You are a style-over-substance roleplayer.
I prefer the ability to forge and play my own character and story, and all i need are possibilities to do that.
You prefer...well, playing dress-up and playing trough storylines others have written.

[charlemagne]

"Painting your ship" would hardly matter anyways, because the only time you'd see it would be while being docked. In combat you'd be zoomed out anyways. All it would do would be adding more lag

Oh, and btw, there ARE unique and challenging storyline missions to be played, they're called "Epic Arcs". There's a couple of them in game and there's even epic arcs for npc pirate factions if helping empire factions isn't your thing.

But it still amazes me that "endless opportunities to actually shape the game world" is not roleplaying support, but "playing dress up" is. How the fuck can roleplaying be fun if literally nothing your character does will ever be of any consequence?

[ShadowDragon8685]

LMAO...keep the comedy running. And really, you're throwing yet more fuel to the fire. Honest advice? Leave and let people go off into other territory. This just leads to everyone laughing at you more or wonder of your intelligence more.

My capacity to keep this up is nigh-endless, really. I won't let fucktards tell me I don't know how to have fun right, especially if they're not willing to put up or shut up.

Onto the couple of bits I found funny. I'm sure someone will shred your weakass EVE reasons of why you don't like it(we get it, but you're makingbaseless accusations towards the game and keep going pounding your chest in mock anger)

All of my accusations, save those which were based on years-old outdated knowledge that I had no reason to know were out-of-date, are entirely founded.

For WoW : You ENJOY doing old shit? Must be because you never did it when it was new. Only reason to do it now is because you're so fucking bored, you've decided that soloing Molten Bore or whichever raid or you really absolutely want that extra special horse that half of Ironforge has. Other then that it is getting a laugh, go for Insane in the Membrane or...don't play WoW after fucking around. Really, the old shit isn't even good for money unless you're exploiting the AH because hitting the gold maximum on one character is just not enough.

You're forgetting the reasons of:
1: Seeing things you've never seen before, which is entirely possible when you've done overworld quest-running from 1 to 80 with only the most inevitable of dungeons thrown in. (Getting to see Ragefire Chasm with my 80 Paladin was... Interesting. I play Alliance, and I reached 80 before they instituted the port-a-dungeon system.)
2: Going through for schlock that practically you don't need but you want because it's cool. The boss's horse from Strathholm is an obvious example, but I got the coolest hand-lantern I've yet seen from the keep in the Silverpine forest that I'd never even known was there until level 80 or so.
3: It beats walrus husbandry.

And for RPing if you use the raid bosses resurrecting by running to a spirit healer as a reason, you're a fucking dumber role player then most here are getting at.

He asked for an explaination for how you could do the same adventure twice. But then, he's Arthas, lord of the Scourge; he could just have them build an Altar of the Damned.

Here are some condensed versions for the tl;dr crowd.

'I like it to be really easy'

So what?

'RPing is being something you're not, but never a pirate or trader or scout or miner. Only WIZARDS'

And you could RP as an accountant or a picker-packer or a census-taker or a programmer... But why would you? I think, given the choice, most people here would rather RP someone more interesting than one of the above. Anyway, that's not roleplaying if you're just doing the mechanical motions, it's just playing, without the role. Unless yu really keep character the whole time, which I doubt.

'There is no RP support at all in EVE. All that support that exists is irrelevant because you can't adjust your characters wardrobe'.

Yes, it is irrelevant, because it's not RP support, it's just front-page wanking the first guys to do stuff, and CCP certainly aren't actually taking any steps to promote people to stay in-character during their 'events'. It's a gigantic metagame. That is not Roleplaying.

'I am a massive bigot who judges people by the first MMO they played'.

Yep. If your first wasn't UO, then there's no helping you.

'RPing repetitive things in WoW is awesome, but RPing repetitive things in EVE is impossible because you can't dress like a woman'.

WoW's RP support is tremendously lacking, and I never said it wasn't. But it beats seven kinds of six out of EvE.

'Being ignorant isn't being wrong; ignoring giant screenshots proving me wrong is totally fine'.

Your giant screenshot proved NOTHING. CCP makes a front-page blurb about the first guy to do X; so fucking what? Blizzard makes a much bigger deal about the first people to do X in their games, but it doesn't excuse the dearth of things CCP doesn't do. The fact that it's been so damn long since the game came out and you still can't even customize your ship's fucking paint job says volumes about how little they care. They might as well drop the "RP" from "MMORPG."

'You can't do anything solo in EVE because I say so. All those soloers out there are lying'.

You couldn't effectively solo the last time I played it, unless you had an insatiable appetite for watching mining happen and occasionally clicking a new rock to go and orbit.

'All PVP in EVE involves a large proportion of your net worth because ... something'.

Funnily enough, ~20% of my wealth was usually what my ship would have cost. Again, maybe CCP has made the ISK flow so much that getting decent ships is almost something that makes you say "Another ship? How many more of these do I need?," but the last time I checked, ships were a BFD except to the guys who had licenses to print ISK.

'Repetitive and bland samey experience is excellent fodder for RP in WOW, but horrible cuntery in EVE'.
'It's awesome to do epic events that everyone else does, but terrible to be able to work to actual achievements to set yourself apart from others'.

Yes, frankly, it is, because Blizzard actually put work into making it feel epic, whereas in EvE the epicness lasts until you dock and then what? You're just another one of the crowd with another of the endless permutations on "We were THERE, dood, and there were ships blowing UP, man!"

'Tavern tales and talking to your friends is shit in EVE, but is the 'butter zone' in WOW'.

Tavern tales kind of lose their impact when they're being transmitted in a text format from the inside of a pod of goop. Hard to have a good tavern tale without a tavern or at least a cantina.

'The Lich King can obviously respawn and that's fine but respawning in EVE means PVP is without consequnce - except those consequences I whinge about'.

I said it was one way to do it, chucklefuck, not the only way. English, motherfucker; do you read it?

'If you don't tell tell the same story as everyone else, it's worthless'

Your capacity for strawmanning knows no bounds. Keep going, at this rate I should be able to mentally reclassify you as a typing fungus.

'I have no idea how PVP works in EVE'.

PvP in EvE, almost all of the time, is a fucking mugging wherein one hapless moron gets blown up for no good reason other than some assholes decided to inflate their killcount. The rest of the time it's ridiculous lag-fests that people without really stable and fast broadband connections will just get slaughtered in.

'I will continue to ignore all evidence that I'm dead wrong'.

Except I'm not wrong, you are.

'RP support = dress like a woman'

you, let it go already! RP support means things like Character customization. At the very least, for a space-based game, the ability to customize your fucking ship's PAINT JOB. They can't even do that much because they're too fucking lazy!

As someone who's an avid roleplayer and is especially fond of Exalted, I can't begin to state how horrible this idea is. Exalted with a modern setting makes no kinds of sense. At least in standard Exalted there are occasional threats, like... Warstriders, and giant ass-stomping Primordials, Fair Folk, etc. What the hell are you going to do for a Modern (I presume you mean late 20th, early 21st century Earth when you say "Modern") Exalted setting?

What makes you think that the only possible threats to find in the 21st century would be the strictly mortal ones? Why wouldn't Gods reawaken, Fair Folk start trying to fray their way out in places like the Bermuda Triangle or the New Jersey Pine Barrens or spooky-place-du-jour? And there's the other Exalted - always good for a nice, stiff fight.

Of course, there's also helicoptor gunships and shit, those make for a nice change of pace.

Are you fucking kidding me? That's you're idea of RP support? Playing dressup and painting your ship?

No, I'm not fucking kidding you. Yes, it fucking is. That's the kind of thing I expect from a game that expects to call itself an MMORPG, and EvE lacks it entirely!

EVE has more RP support than I've ever seen in a MMO before. You can do whatever the fuck you want in it. You can create whatever the fuck kind of character that you want.

And it only matters inasmuch as the people you're playing against give a damn to stop and listen to your character - oh right they won't, because they're too busy typing "lol noob, cash or pop," then popping you after you wire them a shitload of funds anyway."

Minmatar freedomfighter.

Griefer who randomly fights with Amarr.

Space Pirate.

Griefer who randomly fights everyone unfortunate enough to come within sensor range.

An Amar that's become so corrupted by the Gallente idea of Freedom that he's willing to kill his own kind to protect it.

Griefer who likes Amarr ships but likes shooting Amarr ships.

There's literally so many options. I'm just scratching the surface of the RP possibilities. You create you're own damn storylines.

And they only matter so far as other players care to stop and listen. Nobody who's PvPing is going to stop and listen to your anti-faction spiel, they want to get on with the business of inflating their PvP killcount and bragging. And if you try to spiel to them, they'll just pop you anyway, then later on go on to lol it up with their asshole friends about how they popped this dumbass RP fuckwad.

This is in contrast to WoW, where you're basically stuck playing their storyline. You call this RP'ing, but really it's more akin to playing a standard RPG with other players. You're limited in the characters you make and what you can do with them because of that same storyline.

Perhaps you should compare it to Starwars Galaxies, then. I only brought up WoW the first time because I was comparing a mechanical aspect. Even so, WoW still has more RP potential than EvE, though admittedly it's not great, given that you can't talk to about half of the player population under any circumstances except with your sword. And yet, even in WoW, players manage to create amazingly detailed - or simply fun - roleplaying all by themselves - same as you guys claim is possible in EvE. Only it's better because it's not all done via text in a chat line.

Let's try that Amar turncoat example I just came up with...

"Quisling the Amar heads over to Gallente space to start doing missions for various Gallente corporations hoping to worm his way into their trust so he can start reporting classified info back to his Amar spy masters. But as he stays in Gallente space longer he begins to sympathize them, before finally joining a Gallente Militia to protect his new nation."

There, this hypothetical player just created a new char, headed over to gallente space to do some missions to make some isk and gain enough faction standing to sign up for Faction Warfare. All while staying in Character! And I, someone who's never RP'd before in his life, managed to come up with this in just a few minutes.

And it means... What, exactly, without anyone else to RP it with? Because without that, it's just you taking an Amarr character and fecking off to Gallente space to take a slightly-harder route to joining faction warfare. Oh right, it doesn't. And it's rather hard to RP with people you're trying to kill, since RPing takes mental concentration that will distract you from the PvPing - and get you killed.

Show me something in WoW that's comparable. And no, that storyline bullshit they force feed you doesn't count.

Ah, so... Joining EvE's bullshit PvP counts, but playing through the epic scenarios in WoW doesn't because.... It doesn't? All right, fine.

Deima had had enough; enough of the Northrend factions making her jump through hoops to earn the right to buy the things she needed to effectively fight the Scourge. Enough of the pig-headed leaders of the Alliance fighting with the Horde when the Scourge were literally right there, waiting for them to weaken each other. Enough of the seemingly endless battles with endless foes, only for another to rise in his place mere hours after the first was destroyed. And, most of all, enough of those Light-damned sea cattle that were too depressed to get together and mate on their own!

Weary after the third, or fifth, or seventh battle (she had lost track,) she hung her axe over her back and turned towards the sea. Getting a running start, her hooves biting deep and sure into the snow, she charged and leapt off the cliff, diving elegantly into the freezing bay below; plunging in, she dove to the bottom and touched down, then forced her way back to the surface; enjoying the chill sting of water on her skin, the mighty hero unburdened by the weight of the full plate clad all around her.

She burst through the surface in a spray of water, gasping as she hopped up to an ice floe; taking a stone from her pocket, she clenched it and started to channel the power hidden within, relishing the feeling the gaian energy of the hearthstone induced as she completed the travel spell, whisking her far, far away from Northrend in an instant.

Five minutes later, she was dry; she'd sent a telepathic message to a friend, who had confirmed she was where the Draenei had expected her to be, and the Paladiness was examining her vault in the bank of Stormwind. Ultimately deciding she wasn't in a mood to show off tonight, she took out the festive pantsuit that remained as a memento of better times, and wore her Tabard of the Hand of Argos with it; except when pointlessly championing the moronic self-righteous factions of Northrend, she was never without it. Five minutes later, she arrived at the quiet tavern in the quiet part of town, hooves clopping heavily on the wooden floor. The tavern was lightly occupied at this hour; only three, adventurers and heroes like herself all. That suited her; she was in no mood to tolerate the company of any of Stormwind's seemingly-mindless citizenry.

"You would not believe the day I've had," she wearily croaked, walking to her seat and holding a hand with five fingers up, a gesture that the grizzled ex-adventurer who was manning the bar knew well to mean 'the strongest you've got and keep it coming.' She was definitely in the mood to drink her weight in booze.

And that's only with WoW, a game where the RP support is limited at best. EvE can't hold a candle.

I'm not telling you how to have fun. I'm telling you that the reasons you gave for disliking the game are absurd. As I said, I wouldn't give a shit if you had just come out and said "Yeah, tried EVE. Didn't like it. It's too filled with douchebags." In fact, I would be surprised if anyone bothered arguing the point. But your reasons basically boiled down "Wah! I want to play dressup! And I want to be protected from my own stupid mistakes because I didn't bother to do any research on the game before I started playing!"

1: How many fucking times do I have to make it clear that the ability to customize my character is a high priority to me? I don't care if it's not a priority to you, but FUCK YOU if you're just going to mock me because it is a priority to me!
2: Yes, I damn well do want to be protected from my stupid mistakes, because everyone makes mistakes and they shouldn't fucking ruin you. If I wanted a game that cheerfully soddomized you for every little slip of the hand (not to mention lag spikes and acts of god,) I'd play a fucking Roguelike, not a game I pay $16.00 a month for.

ROFFLE. I hear nobody keeps spare ships or mods around. Even when I was total fucking noobsauce I could afford to keep a second fitted Kestrel in my hangar.

I didn't, okay? I was so fucking pissed off with the endless grind of learning skills that I saw I had enough to get a cruiser and went for it.

And 20% of your net worth...who gives a shit? I routinely fly ships that cost more than the contents of my wallet to replace, and I actually PVP in nullsec with them--the difference is, 1) I keep a spare or two, and 2) I don't fly something I couldn't pay for after two or three days of carebearing. And by days, I mean, "Log on, grind missions/null rats while bullshitting on Vent for a few hours, go do something else." Any day-old noob could do the exact same thing. It's just a matter of proportion; stick to frigs and dessies until you can do level IIs, cruisers until level IIIs, etc. As long as he had enough sense not to sink every penny he had into a carebear boat he planned to take to lowsec, he'd do all right--and fucksticks, even under those circumstances, you can grind enough ISK in a fucking Ibis to be at least in a proper frigate again in a few hours.

Look, you don't like the game because you think it's boring, or the UI sucks, or you don't like PVP, or everyone who plays it is an asshole, or you can't paint your ship green or sit in a tavern in a pretty dress, fine. But don't start blaming the game because you were terrible at it.

A game is supposed to be fun. If it ever puts you in a situation where the fun stops and the suck begins, the game is failing at being fun. And that includes allowing you to ruin yourself. Yes, I do bloody well blame EvE for that.

Oh, about soloing: I soloed my way up to bloody battleships, just by hunting the right NPCs in 0.0 and a few missions.
And i had the money for them way before i had the skills, and i did not play that much.

Okay, maybe it's possible these days. I won't say it isn't, since you've played more recently than I have; point is, it wasn't last time I played, and going into 0.0 is still an invitation to get podded by a paranoid lunatic.

And character customization?
Who the hell gives a shit? It's not like WoW has gear customisation, and the choices for your character are hardly excessive.

I give a shit! I thought I'd made that clear by now; and WoW, if not having gear customization, at least has some degree of character customization, and you can always collect a set of clothes that aren't statistically any good but you like having anyway.

It's not like I'm holding WoW up as a paragon of RP support, because the RP support in WoW is bad. But it's far, far more existant than in EvE Online.

You are a style-over-substance roleplayer.
I prefer the ability to forge and play my own character and story, and all i need are possibilities to do that.
You prefer...well, playing dress-up and playing trough storylines others have written.

Endless reptitions of the same tales of PvP ambushes and ignimonious escapes from others' ambushes that you spin up as tales of incredible evasion in the face of adversity? No thank you.

I will admit, WoW is pretty bad for RP. Not entirely impossible, mind; but bad. The best was in SWG, where my character seemed to be a harmless ditz of a Twi'lek dancer... Unless you knew she was such a good liar and sneak that she managed to infiltrate the Imperial forces and abscond with Darth Vader's own Eta-2 Actis starfighter, and went laughing with it all the way back to Tatooine, having tricked the Dark Lord of Sith into thinking she was a loyal daughter of the Empire. Or that she'd destroyed an Imperial Star Destroyer by her lonesome in it, and could terrorize Imperial starfighter forces with the best of them, all the while hiding in plain sight whilst on the ground, watching Imps coming into and out of cantinas and making note of the kinds of things they said they were about to get up to, because nobody watches what they say in front of the dancing girl.

Want to tell me I'm a style-over-substance RPer now? I happen to enjoy style, yes. That doesn't mean I'm not good at what you'd call "substance," either. But really, you can live off of endless cups of ramen... I don't think you'd want to, though.

"Painting your ship" would hardly matter anyways, because the only time you'd see it would be while being docked. In combat you'd be zoomed out anyways. All it would do would be adding more lag

It's not exactly lagarriffic to attach a few extra tags containing a few RGB hexcodes to every ship, detailing the color of the primary hull, trim and a few extra zones. It's not exactly like I suggested that everyone be allowed to upload a 256x256 personal hull insignia. And you could always turn off viewing others' color schemes, or viewing them in combat.

Oh, and btw, there ARE unique and challenging storyline missions to be played, they're called "Epic Arcs". There's a couple of them in game and there's even epic arcs for npc pirate factions if helping empire factions isn't your thing.

All right, I'll concede it. That wasn't the case when I last played, though.

But it still amazes me that "endless opportunities to actually shape the game world" is not roleplaying support, but "playing dress up" is. How the fuck can roleplaying be fun if literally nothing your character does will ever be of any consequence?

At least you can focus on the actual roleplaying, instead of worrying so much about the consequences that you drop all pretenses of roleplaying in order to focus on the numbers game. How the hell can roleplaying be fun if losing a fight actually costs you dearly? For that matter, I can't have fun if even winning the fight means that I've cost someone else dearly.

[Stark]

You poor deluded fool. What you are apparently too stupid to realise is I posted a grab from the EVE mainsite, with an entire area dedicated to NOTHING BUT IN-WORLD RP EVENTS DRIVEN BY PLAYERS. This directly contradicts your ridiculous and repeated claims of 'no RP support', except you persist in using your personal definition which limits forms of expression, location of expression, types of expression, and what you express.

In sort, you're a fabulously blinkered coward, which sounds like a personal problem.

[ShadowDragon8685]

You poor deluded fool. What you are apparently too stupid to realise is I posted a grab from the EVE mainsite, with an entire area dedicated to NOTHING BUT IN-WORLD RP EVENTS DRIVEN BY PLAYERS. This directly contradicts your ridiculous and repeated claims of 'no RP support', except you persist in using your personal definition which limits forms of expression, location of expression, types of expression, and what you express.

A guy who writes some blogposts about stuff people are doing does not excuse the dearth of RP support. It contradicts nothing; Blizzard quite happily writes about the first guys to reach certain milestones in WoW, too, but that's not RP support, that's just writing some blogposts.

Tell me, has the description of the planet Amarr, when examined, changed from a barebones description of the planet's mass and gravitational pull? I doubt it.

In sort, you're a fabulously blinkered coward, which sounds like a personal problem.

This is growing quite tiresome. We've already established that I have no taste for PvP and do not find the very real losses incurred by losing a ship to be things I enjoy. Why don't you kindly go fuck yourself if all you're going to do is screech "lol coward noob" all the time, hmm?

[Serafina]

So, what's RP-support then, you fucktard?

WoW certainly hasn't any, yet you claim that it is better for RP than EVE!
Sure, you can play dress-up - but that's not RP! RP is about playing a role in a game, and EVE has both more roles you can play an opportunities to play them. I can play a totally perfect, valid character completely in-character in EVE if i choose to do so, while a WOW-character does the same fucking boring quests as everyone else in WoW.4

Oh, and you think Blizzards stories are epic?
They have some nice ones, but few of them are epic and most of them are cardboard villains. Besides, if everyone does the same fucking thing there's hardly room for roleplay.
But then again, you admitted that you have to play an epic character to have fun

Oh, and about never breaking character - no one does that. Every form of RP in real life involves breaking character, because it's more fun that way. But you probably wouldn't know shit about that anyway.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Your wall of "roleplay" text and then the statement that WoW is thus better for RP than EVE is just... wow.

Deima had had enough; enough of the Northrend factions making her jump through hoops to earn the right to buy the things she needed to effectively fight the Scourge. Enough of the pig-headed leaders of the Alliance fighting with the Horde when the Scourge were literally right there, waiting for them to weaken each other. Enough of the seemingly endless battles with endless foes, only for another to rise in his place mere hours after the first was destroyed. And, most of all, enough of those Light-damned sea cattle that were too depressed to get together and mate on their own!

Weary after the third, or fifth, or seventh battle (she had lost track,) she hung her axe over her back and turned towards the sea. Getting a running start, her hooves biting deep and sure into the snow, she charged and leapt off the cliff, diving elegantly into the freezing bay below; plunging in, she dove to the bottom and touched down, then forced her way back to the surface; enjoying the chill sting of water on her skin, the mighty hero unburdened by the weight of the full plate clad all around her.

She burst through the surface in a spray of water, gasping as she hopped up to an ice floe; taking a stone from her pocket, she clenched it and started to channel the power hidden within, relishing the feeling the gaian energy of the hearthstone induced as she completed the travel spell, whisking her far, far away from Northrend in an instant.

Five minutes later, she was dry; she'd sent a telepathic message to a friend, who had confirmed she was where the Draenei had expected her to be, and the Paladiness was examining her vault in the bank of Stormwind. Ultimately deciding she wasn't in a mood to show off tonight, she took out the festive pantsuit that remained as a memento of better times, and wore her Tabard of the Hand of Argos with it; except when pointlessly championing the moronic self-righteous factions of Northrend, she was never without it. Five minutes later, she arrived at the quiet tavern in the quiet part of town, hooves clopping heavily on the wooden floor. The tavern was lightly occupied at this hour; only three, adventurers and heroes like herself all. That suited her; she was in no mood to tolerate the company of any of Stormwind's seemingly-mindless citizenry.

"You would not believe the day I've had," she wearily croaked, walking to her seat and holding a hand with five fingers up, a gesture that the grizzled ex-adventurer who was manning the bar knew well to mean 'the strongest you've got and keep it coming.' She was definitely in the mood to drink her weight in booze.

What the fuck is that? Writing about your character's day? The ability to write about your character's day in some of the least interesting prose I've ever read is what makes WoW so special? Really? Get real. What the fuck is to stop someone playing EVE from doing exactly the same thing, exactly? I've met many people who play EVE who have no trouble roleplaying their characters, despite the lack of custom paintjobs, customisable player avatars and dress ups!

What makes you think that the only possible threats to find in the 21st century would be the strictly mortal ones? Why wouldn't Gods reawaken, Fair Folk start trying to fray their way out in places like the Bermuda Triangle or the New Jersey Pine Barrens or spooky-place-du-jour? And there's the other Exalted - always good for a nice, stiff fight.

Of course, there's also helicoptor gunships and shit, those make for a nice change of pace.

Why wouldn't Gods reawaken, Fair Folk show up, and all that other nonsense? Because Creation Is Not Earth. Creation is where those beings come from, and Creation is flat and stretches on forever until you hit the Wyld, which then also stretches on forever. In Creation, the sky is literally something you can touch. (But you shouldn't try, because there's a God who smacks down anyone that does. That's his whole job.)

If Earth does exist in the same Universe as Exalted's Creation, things have changed drastically. I mean... there's no more Wyld. The Underworld clearly can't be connected to Earth, because I ain't seen no Shadowlands around. It's a bad idea, because there are almost zero thematic links between Exalted and Earth that actually work if you think about them for more than five seconds.

So basically, you'd be limited to dealing with other Exalted and humans with military hardware. Sounds like DBZ: The Saiyaning, but less entertaining.

And what you fail to note is that Creation in Exalted, during the First Age, was a super-advanced technological wonderland. It got reduced to the Age of Sorrows in a few hundred years. 21st Century Earth stands no chance. With Exalts, Gods, Fair Folk, the Wyld, the Neverborn and Yozi suddenly appearing on 21st Century Earth, I am picturing... death and destruction on a world-wide scale, and then technological regression back to the Dark Ages. Fun.

But again, discussion of Exalted has little place in this thread, so if you wish to continue this conversation, we can do so over PM.

[Temjin]

And it only matters inasmuch as the people you're playing against give a damn to stop and listen to your character - oh right they won't, because they're too busy typing "lol noob, cash or pop," then popping you after you wire them a shitload of funds anyway."

Wow! You mean random people I meet online aren't going to want to immediately RP with me? I had no idea that this sort of thing happens! And I'm sure it only happens EVE and not every fucking MMORPG ever made.

Griefer who randomly fights with Amarr.

Griefer who randomly fights everyone unfortunate enough to come within sensor range.

Griefer who likes Amarr ships but likes shooting Amarr ships.

Wow! Awesome points! Too bad it has nothing to do with the arguement at hand! You said that EVE has no RP support. When shown multiple roles that people actually RP, you attack the players behind them as if it actually has some relevence.

Here's a hint: Just because you might not like the characters they're roleplaying, doesn't mean they're not actually roleplaying.

And they only matter so far as other players care to stop and listen. Nobody who's PvPing is going to stop and listen to your anti-faction spiel, they want to get on with the business of inflating their PvP killcount and bragging. And if you try to spiel to them, they'll just pop you anyway, then later on go on to lol it up with their asshole friends about how they popped this dumbass RP fuckwad.

And again, you will get this shit no matter what game you're playing. EVE isn't anything special in this regard, so stop pretending it is.

Perhaps you should compare it to Starwars Galaxies, then. I only brought up WoW the first time because I was comparing a mechanical aspect. Even so, WoW still has more RP potential than EvE, though admittedly it's not great, given that you can't talk to about half of the player population under any circumstances except with your sword. And yet, even in WoW, players manage to create amazingly detailed - or simply fun - roleplaying all by themselves - same as you guys claim is possible in EvE. Only it's better because it's not all done via text in a chat line.

How the fuck is it better? You keep harping on the point that in EVE you do most of your RP'ing through the chat. How the fuck is WoW different? You're still using the fucking chat.

I can't comment on SWG, having never played it, but I can't imagine it being much different.

And it means... What, exactly, without anyone else to RP it with? Because without that, it's just you taking an Amarr character and fecking off to Gallente space to take a slightly-harder route to joining faction warfare. Oh right, it doesn't. And it's rather hard to RP with people you're trying to kill, since RPing takes mental concentration that will distract you from the PvPing - and get you killed.

Maybe you could do what they do in all the other fucking MMO's: RP with your friends and guild/corp.

Awesome point about it being hard to RP while PVPing though. Because I'm sure that people RP in raids all the damn time. Again, awesome point that's only specific to EVE.

Ah, so... Joining EvE's bullshit PvP counts, but playing through the epic scenarios in WoW doesn't because.... It doesn't? All right, fine.

Wow, that point flew right over you're head, huh? The official Blizzard storyline doesn't count because it's force fed down your throat. I don't give a shit if you're champion of Whateverthefuck Isle, so are 6 million+ other people, so that's not really something that makes your char special, is it?

You might as well be playing Oblivion or Final Fantasy then.

EDIT: Out of cuiousity, what do you do if you encounter another RP'er who apparently also killed Lord Whogivesashit and saved the people of Whateverthefuck Isle? Do you just say the Lord went to a spirit healer and rezed and then Oppressed the people of the Isle again? Wow, you're actions in WoW are really important, huh?

SNIP story

And that's only with WoW, a game where the RP support is limited at best. EvE can't hold a candle.

Oh of course it's completely im-fucking-possible to create fan-fiction about your character in EVE. Yessiree. Glad you cleared that up.

EDIT; Oh, wait, I can play this game too. On one of the very few times I actually particapated in PVP in EVE (Played for a good eight months, and you can count the number of times I PVP'ed on one hand), a corp mate of mine wrote up an in-character story about it and posted it in the alliance forums. Maybe I should re-post it here when I get home from work just to really drive this point home, since it was apparently impossible for him to do so outside of WoW.

1: How many fucking times do I have to make it clear that the ability to customize my character is a high priority to me? I don't care if it's not a priority to you, but FUCK YOU if you're just going to mock me because it is a priority to me!

Good. Awesome. It's a priority to you. That doesn't mean it's a priority to other players, who apparently RP just fine without it. All things considered, it's such a small thing to stop people from RP'ing... besides you, of course.

2: Yes, I damn well do want to be protected from my stupid mistakes, because everyone makes mistakes and they shouldn't fucking ruin you. If I wanted a game that cheerfully soddomized you for every little slip of the hand (not to mention lag spikes and acts of god,) I'd play a fucking Roguelike, not a game I pay $16.00 a month for.

Holy shit. A valid criticism. I knew you had one in you. I'm proud of you.

Of course, I've made plenty of small mistakes even as a newb due to playing smart, but let's just ignore that.

[ShadowDragon8685]

So, what's RP-support then, you fucktard?

WoW certainly hasn't any, yet you claim that it is better for RP than EVE!
Sure, you can play dress-up - but that's not RP! RP is about playing a role in a game, and EVE has both more roles you can play an opportunities to play them. I can play a totally perfect, valid character completely in-character in EVE if i choose to do so, while a WOW-character does the same fucking boring quests as everyone else in WoW.4

The ability to customize a character is not RP, but it is RP support. Building a game world which at least looks as if it's rich and dynamic, with major fuckloads of backstory, is RP support. Blizzard's got teams of guys dedicated to nothing but expanding and expounding upon the lore; whereas, as I have mentioned, the last I checked the single most populated planet in EvE had no more description than the most uninhabited rock. That kind of thing is not RP support, it's fucking lazy.

RP support means expanding upon a world, not simply hammering away at the main focus, which for EvE means PvP. Blizzard does it all; PvP, PvE, Pv nothing whatsoever. Blizzard created a world to play in; CCP created a universe to crunch numbers in.

Oh, and you think Blizzards stories are epic? :lol
They have some nice ones, but few of them are epic and most of them are cardboard villains. Besides, if everyone does the same fucking thing there's hardly room for roleplay.

Many of Blizzard's stories are epic, yes. Some of them are not (I swear to god, if I have to slaughter one more boar hoping to find one with an existant liver I'll go mad,) but most of them are leading up to some huge, epic struggle. The story of Arthas is the ur-story, and it's about as fucking epic (if considerably briefer) as any of the classics.

But then again, you admitted that you have to play an epic character to have fun.

Well, yeah. I get my fill of not-epic IRL, thank you very much. And really, what's supposed to be all that engaging spending an hour and forty minutes retrieving something you cannot get near your home base? I did that last night, getting pizza and breadsticks from the nearest Domino's to my house 'cause I wanted to try something new, but it's just as easily the sort of thing you can wind up doing in EvE because the part you need can't be found anywhere near the space you're in. At least in EvE you can set the autopilot and go watch TV.

Oh, and about never breaking character - no one does that. Every form of RP in real life involves breaking character, because it's more fun that way. But you probably wouldn't know shit about that anyway.

Nobody can maintain character all the time, true. But the overwhelmingly vast majority of people in EvE don't have a concept of what it means to be 'in' character! Granted that this is true in WoW, too, but you don't have to tolerate them aggrevating you when you're trying to RP, whereas in EvE if they're not having an easy enough time aggrevating you by spamming you with text, they can just spam you with orndance instead. And since they're the kind of person who gets off on making others' lives hell, they're probably a hell of a lot better at it than you are.

Your wall of "roleplay" text and then the statement that WoW is thus better for RP than EVE is just... wow.
What the fuck is that? Writing about your character's day? The ability to write about your character's day in some of the least interesting prose I've ever read is what makes WoW so special? Really? Get real. What the fuck is to stop someone playing EVE from doing exactly the same thing, exactly? I've met many people who play EVE who have no trouble roleplaying their characters, despite the lack of custom paintjobs, customisable player avatars and dress ups!

It was a demonstration that WoW was a setting for just as interesting and dynamic RP as EvE was. Also, your attempt to mock my writing falls flat, because I know damn well my writing is very good.

My point was to demonstrate all the things you can do in WoW that you can't do in EvE. Your interaction with other players in EvE is limited to "talk to," "trade with" and "blow up," and your interaction with the environment is limited to "fly around," "dock with," "blow up" and "strip-mine." There may be a vast array of permutations available on those themes, but that's the long and the short of it.

Why wouldn't Gods reawaken, Fair Folk show up, and all that other nonsense? Because Creation Is Not Earth. Creation is where those beings come from, and Creation is flat and stretches on forever until you hit the Wyld, which then also stretches on forever. In Creation, the sky is literally something you can touch. (But you shouldn't try, because there's a God who smacks down anyone that does. That's his whole job.)

If the magic is coming back sufficiently to harbor Celestial Exaltations, it can be safely assumed that the Essence levels of the world have risen to such a point that it can give rise to awakened Gods and no longer be completely anathema to Fair Folk, if they can only find a way in to that frustratingly consistant world of hard laws.

And the God of Smacking Down People Who Touch The Sky is a pansy.

If Earth does exist in the same Universe as Exalted's Creation, things have changed drastically. I mean... there's no more Wyld. The Underworld clearly can't be connected to Earth, because I ain't seen no Shadowlands around. It's a bad idea, because there are almost zero thematic links between Exalted and Earth that actually work if you think about them for more than five seconds.

It's true that there's no more Wyld in the sense of "this is what is beyond Creation's borders," since our Universe is a vast infinite void sprinkled with dots of life. But, however, the Wyld still exists; it is still an infinite place of infinite possibility, meaning that some of that possibility will connect to our universe in some way, and some of those connections will be on Earth. This will be especially magnified in places which are spooky and have a lot of story around them; the Bermuda triangle, that forest in Japan which is rife with suicides by hanging and people looting the dead where you can be in pitch blackness at high noon, the New Jersey Pine Barrens where the locals speak in hushed whispers about the Jersey Devil and sleep with loaded shotguns in every room of the house. Places like Eastern State Penitentiary, which are widely believed to be haunted... Those are places where the valor of mortals flags, where the spirit of mortals fears to tread; and the places where the Fair Folk can try to find some purchase in our realm.

So basically, you'd be limited to dealing with other Exalted and humans with military hardware. Sounds like DBZ: The Saiyaning, but less entertaining.

Except not? Definitionally so, in fact? Who knows what you might find during the next adventure - it might be some Exalt consolidating the Russian mobs as part of a plan to sieze control of Russia - and by extension it's nuclear arsenal, as part of a gambit to achieve superpower status, or it might be a glowing portal in the middle of some forsaken wilderness through which Demons from Malfeas have started an incursion upon Earth. It's a setting wherein Uncle Sam is the God of the United States, frequently chats with the President, and packs two uzis. A setting wherein an aggrieved Native American can, with the help of the ancient God of his people, Awaken his Essence and set out to wreak vengeance upon the white man for centuries of genocide and theft. A setting wherein a single dischordant Infernal at the wrong place and the wrong time can cause a city to fall into havok.

And what you fail to note is that Creation in Exalted, during the First Age, was a super-advanced technological wonderland. It got reduced to the Age of Sorrows in a few hundred years. 21st Century Earth stands no chance. With Exalts, Gods, Fair Folk, the Wyld, the Neverborn and Yozi suddenly appearing on 21st Century Earth, I am picturing... death and destruction on a world-wide scale, and then technological regression back to the Dark Ages. Fun.

The First Age fell to ruin because all of it's technology ultimately required the labors of the Solar Exalted to produce the things that maintained it. Definitionally, without Wyld-Shaping Technique maintenance, the primary power source that the civilizations of Creation required turned into nuclear bombs, and last I checked neither Terrestrials, Sidereals nor even Lunars had Wyld-Shaping Technique, and that's not even getting into all the impossible exotic ingredients required to maintain the magical technology of the first age. By way of comparison, the technology of the 21st century is not magical in nature, and works just fine without Essence or Solars WST-ing up a protoshinmaic vortex to power it all.

Either way, it'll be a hell of a ride.

But again, discussion of Exalted has little place in this thread, so if you wish to continue this conversation, we can do so over PM.

Hey, I was accused of having neither the imagination to create my own worlds nor the friends to bring them to life with. I feld the need to correct those misconceptions.

Wow! You mean random people I meet online aren't going to want to immediately RP with me? I had no idea that this sort of thing happens! And I'm sure it only happens EVE and not every fucking MMORPG ever made.

Funnily enough, I've stricken up immediate, off-the-cuff roleplay with lots of people I've met in both World of Warcrack and Star Wars Galaxies. But then, they weren't too busy locking weapons on me and demanding I pay or pod to reply.

Wow! Awesome points! Too bad it has nothing to do with the arguement at hand! You said that EVE has no RP support. When shown multiple roles that people actually RP, you attack the players behind them as if it actually has some relevence.

It's not roleplaying, it's just being a PvPer, if you don't back up your actions with the persona of the character who does so.

Here's a hint: Just because you might not like the characters they're roleplaying, doesn't mean they're not actually roleplaying.

Griefers are definitionally not roleplayers. They only exist to make hell for others. Here's a hint: that kind of person isn't roleplaying. He has no idea of the concept of "in character" and why it's important.

And again, you will get this shit no matter what game you're playing. EVE isn't anything special in this regard, so stop pretending it is.

No, but in WoW and SWG, you can ignore the asshole who's being a shit. In EvE, if you ignore him he just stops spamming you with text and starts spamming you with missiles.

How the fuck is it better? You keep harping on the point that in EVE you do most of your RP'ing through the chat. How the fuck is WoW different? You're still using the fucking chat.

I can't comment on SWG, having never played it, but I can't imagine it being much different.

In EvE, the closest you can get to another player is getting close to their ship. The closest you can get to interacting with them is trading stuff across cargo holds.

In WoW or SWG, you have a literal world (or universe) to explore together; places to go, whether for adventure, to goof off, to fight, or just have a sit-down. Space is a big box of bugger-all with a flash background and some objects that nobody sees because they're too busy watching the distance numbers, whereas Azeroth is a fucking giganto-huge world, and the planets in SWG are pretty damn big, not to mention that it, too, has space you can go and fly around in.

When was the last time you and your pals in EvE decided you'd had enough of the fighting for now, all got on a space yacht which had been lovingly decorated by someone with a talent for aesthetics and just sailed around touring through space? Oh right, you never have. When was the last time you docked on a station somewhere and got out of the ship, took a walk down to the cantina to see if there was anyone interesting there? Oh right - never.

Maybe you could do what they do in all the other fucking MMO's: RP with your friends and guild/corp.

Sure, but in WoW and SWG nobody else can fuck your RP up just because they feel like being a douche and tossing some torpedoes your way. In EvE, that's known to happen. And again, the limit of RP interaction in EvE is chatting whilst docked or orbiting a rock. You can't even go and meet your corpmates in the space-dock cantina to trade those war-stories. Hope you really like staring at your generic, un-personalized ship.

Awesome point about it being hard to RP while PVPing though. Because I'm sure that people RP in raids all the damn time. Again, awesome point that's only specific to EVE.

Granted, but I've seen (and done) RP during 5-man Heroic boss fights.

Wow, that point flew right over you're head, huh? The official Blizzard storyline doesn't count because it's force fed down your throat. I don't give a shit if you're champion of Whateverthefuck Isle, so are 6 million+ other people, so that's not really something that makes your char special, is it?

I've wanted to beat the teeth out of Arthas's face ever since the end of the WC3:RoC human campaign. You assume the official storyline isn't a story that I like. And I don't give a shit if you don't give a shit. You can be constipated if you want, I don't care. Most people don't even bother to finish out that storyline anyway, since it's not the most efficient path to leveling, so it's not 6 million+.

Oh of course it's completely im-fucking-possible to create fan-fiction about your character in EVE. Yessiree. Glad you cleared that up.

That wasn't fanfiction, that was a recap of the start of what was a very good night of roleplaying in World of Warcraft.

EDIT; Oh, wait, I can play this game too. On one of the very few times I actually particapated in PVP in EVE (Played for a good eight months, and you can count the number of times I PVP'ed on one hand), a corp mate of mine wrote up an in-character story about it and posted it in the alliance forums. Maybe I should re-post it here when I get home from work just to really drive this point home, since it was apparently impossible for him to do so outside of WoW.

And I could write a legion of the stories of the fights I've had in World of Warcrack, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not the same and not nearly as engaging as the RP in other games. When your game is less engaging to RP in than WoW, something is wrong.

Good. Awesome. It's a priority to you. That doesn't mean it's a priority to other players, who apparently RP just fine without it. All things considered, it's such a small thing to stop people from RP'ing... besides you, of course.

EvE has a player base that was 300,000, as of last year. World of Warcraft's is over 11.5 million as of two years ago. EvE's population is a drop in the bucket, whereas the number of World of Warcraft players in the world exceeds the population of New York City.

I have the feeling it's a wee bit more than just me.

Holy shit. A valid criticism. I knew you had one in you. I'm proud of you.

And so magnanimous and modest, too!

Of course, I've made plenty of small mistakes even as a newb due to playing smart, but let's just ignore that.

Yeah, and the point is that in World of Warcraft, in Star Wars Galaxies, in pretty much any other MMORPG except UO, you can't be ruined for having a learning experience. In EvE, you can be ruined at any time by anybody who wants to ruin you badly enough to sacrifice a ship to do it in highsec, and with impunity beyond your own ability to retalite in lowsec.

[Stark]

am-Torsad - the Imperial City of the Amarr Empire - marked me. It marked me even though I consciously tried to fight its corrupted presence. It is built on memories - nightmares, really - and you can’t stop them from perverting your mind in the end. For fifty long years I’ve struggled to rid myself of those haunted memories, memories of a human society turned sour and bitter. I may have escaped the oppressive walls of the city, but the vivid memories will always remain. Memories of a city more like a monument than a thriving metropolis; of people saturated with its sluggish nature, their minds weighed down with traditions and customs so strong, so dominant, that it was like their ancestors of a thousand years ago were living their lives through them.

I couldn’t fail to notice - almost immediately - the injustice entrenched in the society. The Holders tread on the Commoners, which in turn tread on the slaves. Talent means nothing; people are judged solely by their social position. The only merits nurtured are backstabbing and back-nagging. The twisted old Holders are deeply envious of zealous young upstarts and find sick pleasure in squashing them. And yet the Commoners look with awe up to the Holders, craving their position and power, but bound still by tradition more sturdy than any iron shackle.

Progress is a term alien to the Amarrians. It’s almost like this huge empire was built on pure coincidence and luck. But once you get to know their intricate system you get the feeling that they’re like this great big beast trudging heedlessly onwards, trampling any opposition. Their advancements are not by leaps and bounds, but rather through deliberate and articulate planning that can span decades, even centuries. Getting caught in the finely woven spider-webs of a Holder can trap more than just you - it can trap your children and your children’s children. Getting out is not a problem. It’s getting out alive that's troublesome.

My years in Dam-Torsad made me loathe and despise the Amarrians. Their society is in so many ways radically different from the Gallentean one. But I also learned never to underestimate the Amarrians. In their own way they’re ruthlessly efficient, and I cannot help but feel in awe of all their accomplishments through the ages.

Excerpt from the autobiography of Yanou Lautere, First Gallente ambassador to the Amarrians

Uh oh...

Oh man, I see he keeps saying 'ruined' like its something that happens and is unavoidable and never happens in WOW, despite this being dismantled by half a dozen posters. Good old wall of ignorance.

The part where he uses the 'inflated by China' numbers for WOW to say that obviously a slick, critical-mass everyman MMO is more popular than a numbers, cutthroat space niche MMO is because of his personal tastes is AWESOME in its arrogance. Amusingly it only takes a single example of an RP-heavy game being less popular than WOW (ie, every single one of them) and his argument disintegrates.

[Temjin]

Funnily enough, I've stricken up immediate, off-the-cuff roleplay with lots of people I've met in both World of Warcrack and Star Wars Galaxies. But then, they weren't too busy locking weapons on me and demanding I pay or pod to reply.

And this shit never happens in EVE!

It sounds like you played EVE for about two or three weeks, accidently joined a pirate corp, had some bad experiences, then quit. Now you're letting you're bad experiences paint the whole EVE player base.

Well, guess what. I, too, have met many RP'ers in EVE. Never RP'ed with them, since I don't RP, but I did encounter them. You just can't expect the person who's intent on blowing you up to particapate.

It's not roleplaying, it's just being a PvPer, if you don't back up your actions with the persona of the character who does so.

Griefers are definitionally not roleplayers. They only exist to make hell for others. Here's a hint: that kind of person isn't roleplaying. He has no idea of the concept of "in character" and why it's important.

"Ouch. He made some good points. Oh, I know! I'll just narrowly define RP'ing so that it no longer includes that!"

I'm sorry, we're not debating your personal definition of role playing. Role playing is difined by playing a role. That's it. It doesn't matter what the role is. If someone is role playing a space pirate, staying in character all the while, and blows you up, guess what? He's role playing.

If playing DND, one of the players is playing a Chaotic Evil character and he screws over the party for personal gain, that's role playing. He's playing a role.

This is of course ignoring another attempt to brush the whole EVE player base as griefers just because of your bad experience. I've actually met far more "Non-griefers" than "griefers."

No, but in WoW and SWG, you can ignore the asshole who's being a shit. In EvE, if you ignore him he just stops spamming you with text and starts spamming you with missiles.

And if you're in High Sec, he'll get blown up by the space police and you can just go somewhere else. If you're in low sec, you should be expecting that kind of stuff. A lot of players have a lot of fun in EVE never leaving high sec space.

In EvE, the closest you can get to another player is getting close to their ship. The closest you can get to interacting with them is trading stuff across cargo holds.

In WoW or SWG, you have a literal world (or universe) to explore together; places to go, whether for adventure, to goof off, to fight, or just have a sit-down. Space is a big box of bugger-all with a flash background and some objects that nobody sees because they're too busy watching the distance numbers, whereas Azeroth is a fucking giganto-huge world, and the planets in SWG are pretty damn big, not to mention that it, too, has space you can go and fly around in.

When was the last time you and your pals in EvE decided you'd had enough of the fighting for now, all got on a space yacht which had been lovingly decorated by someone with a talent for aesthetics and just sailed around touring through space? Oh right, you never have. When was the last time you docked on a station somewhere and got out of the ship, took a walk down to the cantina to see if there was anyone interesting there? Oh right - never.

Same shit, diffent pile. I was really hoping for more substance than that.

If the corp gets tired of mission running or whatever, they can all sit back and do a relaxing mining op shooting the shit in corp or local or whatever.

Oh wait! They need a space tavern or a yacht to do that!

Sure, but in WoW and SWG nobody else can fuck your RP up just because they feel like being a douche and tossing some torpedoes your way. In EvE, that's known to happen. And again, the limit of RP interaction in EvE is chatting whilst docked or orbiting a rock. You can't even go and meet your corpmates in the space-dock cantina to trade those war-stories. Hope you really like staring at your generic, un-personalized ship.

Cause that's the end all be all of RPing. No, you can't RP while actually doing stuff! It all takes place in a tavern!

And someone coming in to mess up your RP experience is part of the RP experience of EVE. If you don't like it, fine. But don't say it isn't still RPing. In fact, it can add a little bit of excitement to your personal story. And surprises are always interesting.

e wanted to beat the teeth out of Arthas's face ever since the end of the WC3:RoC human campaign. You assume the official storyline isn't a story that I like. And I don't give a shit if you don't give a shit. You can be constipated if you want, I don't care. Most people don't even bother to finish out that storyline anyway, since it's not the most efficient path to leveling, so it's not 6 million+.

And I don't give a shit if you like it. Just don't act like it's a requirement for RPing.

EVE has quite a back story too. And you can be as involved in it as you want to.

That wasn't fanfiction, that was a recap of the start of what was a very good night of roleplaying in World of Warcraft.

Point still stands.

And I could write a legion of the stories of the fights I've had in World of Warcrack, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not the same and not nearly as engaging as the RP in other games. When your game is less engaging to RP in than WoW, something is wrong.

And you have yet to show how the RP is less engaging. The example you showed could jsut as easily have been done in EVE. Just because you never actually leave you're pod in teh game, doesn't mean the character you're roleplaying doesn't.

It really sounds like the kind of RP you're into is really simplistic and spoon fed.

EvE has a player base that was 300,000, as of last year. World of Warcraft's is over 11.5 million as of two years ago. EvE's population is a drop in the bucket, whereas the number of World of Warcraft players in the world exceeds the population of New York City.

I have the feeling it's a wee bit more than just me.

Right. I'm sure it has nothing to do with a bigger marketing campaign, more name recognition, and and a completely different fanbase. No, you're right, it's all because you can''t play dressup.

Of course, I've made plenty of small mistakes even as a newb due to playing smart, but let's just ignore that (damn, didn't mean to put that smilie there.

Yeah, and the point is that in World of Warcraft, in Star Wars Galaxies, in pretty much any other MMORPG except UO, you can't be ruined for having a learning experience. In EvE, you can be ruined at any time by anybody who wants to ruin you badly enough to sacrifice a ship to do it in highsec, and with impunity beyond your own ability to retalite in lowsec.

[/quote] And that's why I said it was a valid criticism. It's this way though, because that's what the playerbase wants. Even the carebears that don't PVP.

[charlemagne]

When was the last time you and your pals in EvE decided you'd had enough of the fighting for now, all got on a space yacht which had been lovingly decorated by someone with a talent for aesthetics and just sailed around touring through space? Oh right, you never have. When was the last time you docked on a station somewhere and got out of the ship, took a walk down to the cantina to see if there was anyone interesting there? Oh right - never.

Hilariously just last week my corp did a "sightseeing-tour" around the EvE 'verse, visiting the Monolith, the EvE-Gate and a couple other sights while having fun on teamspeak (oh the horror). Granted, there were no yachts, and granted it involved some minor skirmishes. But still - there's more to EvE than "orbiting rocks" (no one even does that while mining because you'd take even longer to align your mining barge to something or you'd constantly fly out of Orca range, but whatever).

Also, you really don't need to constantly hammer the point that you cannot leave your pod. Walking in stations just is not (yet) in the game, so constantly demanding it is like me asking when your WOW toon last took his Battlecruiser out for a spin. I get that it would be important to you, and lots of people (me included) look forward to maybe sometime actually take a stroll around a space station - but it turns out that in an internet spaceships game most people care more about the spaceships

Like Stark already showed you, there is a rich, vivid and diverse background to EvE. Yes, it's not all in the game in form of mission texts. But this is irrelevant because 1) the news Stark showed a screenshot of can be read at any news billboard at every stargate in the game and 2) EvE has an ingame browser to access all of the chronicles and EvElopedia. You can spend half an hour reading up on the biography of the chick that provided the ship computer's voice, for fuck's sake.

[Stark]

Amusingly ambulation strikes me as a complete waste of time that adds nothing to the game (since it's just a slower menu), but hey, some people like dress-ups.

[Temjin]

Hilariously, there's a good chance this entire discussion would end if he just said "Yeah, it's not the kind of role playing I'm in to."

No one's forcing him to like a game he doesn't enjoy. No one's telling him to resub. We're just arguing with him because the reasons he gave were absurd, such as there being no RPing in EVE.

If he just switched to "it's not the kind of RP I'm into. I prefer it to be more structured." I'd probably drop out of the discussion. I'm a lurker by heart anyway.

[Serafina]

Hilariously, there's a good chance this entire discussion would end if he just said "Yeah, it's not the kind of role playing I'm in to."

No one's forcing him to like a game he doesn't enjoy. No one's telling him to resub. We're just arguing with him because the reasons he gave were absurd, such as there being no RPing in EVE.

If he just switched to "it's not the kind of RP I'm into. I prefer it to be more structured." I'd probably drop out of the discussion. I'm a lurker by heart anyway.

But his opinion is clearly superior to ours! No sane person would like a horrible game like EVE

[charlemagne]

Amusingly ambulation strikes me as a complete waste of time that adds nothing to the game (since it's just a slower menu), but hey, some people like dress-ups.

Oh I completely agree that it would be a unnecessary addition, but I think it'd be fun for an hour or so after it comes out - and it might be fun for things like corp meetings.

[Lagmonster]

Amusingly ambulation strikes me as a complete waste of time that adds nothing to the game (since it's just a slower menu), but hey, some people like dress-ups.

Oh I completely agree that it would be a unnecessary addition, but I think it'd be fun for an hour or so after it comes out - and it might be fun for things like corp meetings.

Only if you had handguns and could use them. Then it would be *awesome*, because it would lead to entire swaths of mild-mannered roleplayers being wiped out in gangland-style bar raids while they were innocently sipping their mead and discussing the unique individualism of their outfits.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

As an aside, this entire thread has resulted in my grabbing the trial version of EVE Online. Just waiting for it to download. I may enjoy it, I may not, but what the hell, I'll give it a try. If ShadowDragon hates it so much, it clearly can't be all bad.

[Ghost Rider]

I think I can see why he doesn't like EVE.

The best was in SWG, where my character seemed to be a harmless ditz of a Twi'lek dancer... Unless you knew she was such a good liar and sneak that she managed to infiltrate the Imperial forces and abscond with Darth Vader's own Eta-2 Actis starfighter, and went laughing with it all the way back to Tatooine, having tricked the Dark Lord of Sith into thinking she was a loyal daughter of the Empire. Or that she'd destroyed an Imperial Star Destroyer by her lonesome in it, and could terrorize Imperial starfighter forces with the best of them, all the while hiding in plain sight whilst on the ground, watching Imps coming into and out of cantinas and making note of the kinds of things they said they were about to get up to, because nobody watches what they say in front of the dancing girl.

Think about how much fucking over the top this is. Tricking Darth Vader so his character could steal his fucking ride. The rest is icing on the cake though, the "I destroyed an ISD...ALONE!!!" is somewhat funny and more outlandish then the first. But as stated in the beginning, it gives you a good look at why. He can't do that in EVE, and certainly can't roleplay it. In WoW? Maybe. But EVE? Not really.

Ah well, keep spreading chum in the water, SD. They are loving you for it.

[Serafina]

Think about how much fucking over the top this is. Tricking Darth Vader so his character could steal his fucking ride. The rest is icing on the cake though, the "I destroyed an ISD...ALONE!!!" is somewhat funny and more outlandish then the first. But as stated in the beginning, it gives you a good look at why. He can't do that in EVE, and certainly can't roleplay it. In WoW? Maybe. But EVE? Not really.

Exactly what i said earlier - he needs to do the epix all on his own, or else they are nothing special - apparently.
Now, i do like epic things, i think everyone does - but if they are that over the top, they just feel cheap.

[RedImperator]

Well, SD is right that not as many EVE players do "in-character" roleplaying. However, it's worth noting that there are still dedicated roleplayers and roleplaying corps/alliances. One of them happens to be CVA, which, you know, built an empire, held it for years, and then lost it in an act of grand strategic and tactical stupidity. But remember: killing the Lich King for the 500th time and pretending it's the first, that's roleplaying. Being Amarr warriors dedicated to expanding the Empire into lawless space and then actually doing it? Not roleplaying.

[Ghost Rider]

LMAO...keep the comedy running. And really, you're throwing yet more fuel to the fire. Honest advice? Leave and let people go off into other territory. This just leads to everyone laughing at you more or wonder of your intelligence more.

My capacity to keep this up is nigh-endless, really. I won't let fucktards tell me I don't know how to have fun right, especially if they're not willing to put up or shut up.

Now this, this encapsulates his level of stubborn stupidity.

Here's a hint. They aren't telling you how to have fun. They are telling you that what you are screaming of what is right and wrong are fundamentally flawed, and that your particular views in EVE are very skewed and outright incorrect. Then there is the esoteric view that you want to apply to what is Role Playing that is just flawed in regards to what one can and cannot do. Lastly, your notes of what should be pushed as role playing is a very heavy style over substance, thus eliciting it's own remarks from the crowd.

You want to have fun waggling in WoW? Cool. But do not make a claim that it is superior because you get to dress up and sit in tavern, because that particular aspect is only superior to you and is not shared by others. Instead of leaving though after establishing this, you continue to provide fuel for everyone and then give examples of your stunning prose that you use in your RP sessions.

But as I said, keep the comedy running, many of the posters appreciate the laugh.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Five hours into my trial playthrough of EVE and I'm actually surprised. I'd avoided this game like the plague because I thought I wouldn't enjoy it, but it's fairly fun. And Amarr ships are fairly gorgeous. I'm just kickin' back, cruisin' and shooting the breeze (and anything else that seems shootable) in my Executioner, and generally cutting loose. It's fun. I've enjoyed the first five hours of EVE a lot more than I enjoyed the first few days of WoW. I stopped playing WoW after those first few days, where-as I might actually invest money into this game.

Fun anecdote:

<SilverWingedSeraph> There was a hilarious moment earlier.
<SilverWingedSeraph> I was doing one of the tutorial missions, and I'd just swapped out my starting civ laser for a different laser. I was unaware at the time that the laser I switched out for required crystal thingies to power it, and had left all my crystal thingies in storage.
<SilverWingedSeraph> So I warp out to the mission, try to fight the pirates.
<SilverWingedSeraph> One minute later "AHHHH FUCK LIZZIE WHERE ARE YOU FUCK THESE PIRATES ARE RAPING ME!!!! ;_; ZE LAZORS, ZEY DO NOTHING!"
<SilverWingedSeraph> And then, at the last moment, when my shields are almost completely drained and I'm trying to run away from three pirate ships, I turn the camera and see Lizzie's Merlin swoop down at several hundred kilometers and missile the fuck out of those filthy pirates.
<SilverWingedSeraph> It was so fucking hilarious and epic at the same time.
* _Lizzie_ was in fact hitting the afterburners
<SilverWingedSeraph> But seriously, my timing was great. I was fleeing for my life, typing all-caps misspelled obscenities to Lizzie over the chat because I thought she was gonna be right behind me, and then I turn my camera right as she afterburns down, launches missiles, and pirates go fucking BOOM.
<Ancelin> xD
<Ancelin> cute
<_Lizzie_> The problem was that my warp cut out while following SWS for some reason
<_Lizzie_> So I was behind a bit
<Ancelin> that's terrible
<SilverWingedSeraph> It took like a full minute and a half for you to get there.
<Ancelin> the merlin is pretty sweet
<SilverWingedSeraph> A full minute and a half of me going "AHHHHH FUCK FUCK WHERE TEH FUCK ARE YOU LIZZIE OMG I'M GETTING SO RAEPED BY THESE FUCKIN' PIRATES AHHHH ;_;"
<_Lizzie_> Actually that ammount of time was me afterburning
<_Lizzie_> Because the merlin is fucking slow
<_Lizzie_> Ancelin: I'm switching over to the rifter as soon as I can
<SilverWingedSeraph> I have an Executioner now. It is much nicer than the piece of shit I started with.
<SilverWingedSeraph> (I are playing Amarr because their ships are pretty and curvy and lellow.)

See, I know now that I could have just warped away and all would have been cool, but 'cause I was just messing around and not really paying much attention to things at that point (as evidenced by me effectively disarming myself), I didn't know any better. It was pretty fun. And no, this is not an epic "OMG I KILLED THE LICH AND I AM SO AWESOME" story, nor was there even any roleplaying involved, because I'd rather get used to the game itself before throwing in roleplay elements, but damn it's a funny story to me.

I like EVE. I dunno if I love it, yet, but I like it, so I wish to thank this thread, and I wish to thank ShadowDragon in particular. If he didn't suck so hard, I would never have tried playing this game just to spite him.

[White Haven]

Hit me up in-game if you need anything, I can throw you some startup cash or what-have-you if you need. Andrew Riviera, Miranda Cho, or Oddbox, depending on who I'm online as.

[ShadowDragon8685]

am-Torsad - the Imperial City of the Amarr Empire - marked me. It marked me even though I consciously tried to fight its corrupted presence. It is built on memories - nightmares, really - and you can’t stop them from perverting your mind in the end. For fifty long years I’ve struggled to rid myself of those haunted memories, memories of a human society turned sour and bitter. I may have escaped the oppressive walls of the city, but the vivid memories will always remain. Memories of a city more like a monument than a thriving metropolis; of people saturated with its sluggish nature, their minds weighed down with traditions and customs so strong, so dominant, that it was like their ancestors of a thousand years ago were living their lives through them.

I couldn’t fail to notice - almost immediately - the injustice entrenched in the society. The Holders tread on the Commoners, which in turn tread on the slaves. Talent means nothing; people are judged solely by their social position. The only merits nurtured are backstabbing and back-nagging. The twisted old Holders are deeply envious of zealous young upstarts and find sick pleasure in squashing them. And yet the Commoners look with awe up to the Holders, craving their position and power, but bound still by tradition more sturdy than any iron shackle.

Progress is a term alien to the Amarrians. It’s almost like this huge empire was built on pure coincidence and luck. But once you get to know their intricate system you get the feeling that they’re like this great big beast trudging heedlessly onwards, trampling any opposition. Their advancements are not by leaps and bounds, but rather through deliberate and articulate planning that can span decades, even centuries. Getting caught in the finely woven spider-webs of a Holder can trap more than just you - it can trap your children and your children’s children. Getting out is not a problem. It’s getting out alive that's troublesome.

My years in Dam-Torsad made me loathe and despise the Amarrians. Their society is in so many ways radically different from the Gallentean one. But I also learned never to underestimate the Amarrians. In their own way they’re ruthlessly efficient, and I cannot help but feel in awe of all their accomplishments through the ages.

Excerpt from the autobiography of Yanou Lautere, First Gallente ambassador to the Amarrians

Uh oh...

They wrote that before the game came out, you know. It's hardly a stunning masterpiece of continual RP support, that.

Oh man, I see he keeps saying 'ruined' like its something that happens and is unavoidable and never happens in WOW, despite this being dismantled by half a dozen posters. Good old wall of ignorance.

1: It's definitionally true that I got ruined in EvE, see also the bit wherein I had to beg change to send an EvEmail.
2: I'm not aware of anybody who's ever been ruined in World of Warcrack.

The part where he uses the 'inflated by China' numbers for WOW to say that obviously a slick, critical-mass everyman MMO is more popular than a numbers, cutthroat space niche MMO is because of his personal tastes is AWESOME in its arrogance. Amusingly it only takes a single example of an RP-heavy game being less popular than WOW (ie, every single one of them) and his argument disintegrates.

You are aware that EvE's 300K number is also inflated by China, right?

And this shit never happens in EVE!

Never that I saw.

It sounds like you played EVE for about two or three weeks, accidently joined a pirate corp, had some bad experiences, then quit. Now you're letting you're bad experiences paint the whole EVE player base.

It was more like two months, in fact. Went through two corps in that time. The first one got shirty with me because I was talking about joining the crowds of people who were planning to go and blow up the macrominers and I once cussed in the corp channel after having lost an expensive ship that I'd been saving for quite some time to buy. Then I found the second one advertising itself as "helping new players."

Well, guess what. I, too, have met many RP'ers in EVE. Never RP'ed with them, since I don't RP, but I did encounter them. You just can't expect the person who's intent on blowing you up to particapate.

And that's kind of the point - those kinds of assholes can be intent on blowing you up and there's nothing you can do unless you're somehow a much better PvPer than he is.

I'm sorry, we're not debating your personal definition of role playing. Role playing is difined by playing a role. That's it. It doesn't matter what the role is. If someone is role playing a space pirate, staying in character all the while, and blows you up, guess what? He's role playing.

You have no idea what roleplaying is; you yourself have said you don't roleplay. Kindly refrain from pretending you know what the fuck you're talking about.

If playing DND, one of the players is playing a Chaotic Evil character and he screws over the party for personal gain, that's role playing. He's playing a role.

Not if's telling the GM "lol, I'm so totally gonna shiv the idiot paladin in the back and take his holy sword so I can shit on it." That's not roleplaying, that's fuckbaggery.

This is of course ignoring another attempt to brush the whole EVE player base as griefers just because of your bad experience. I've actually met far more "Non-griefers" than "griefers."

Griefers just tend to be much, much more noticable, because unlike the 290,000 non-griefers, those 10,000 griefers cause havok and ruin far out of proportion to their numbers.

And if you're in High Sec, he'll get blown up by the space police and you can just go somewhere else. If you're in low sec, you should be expecting that kind of stuff. A lot of players have a lot of fun in EVE never leaving high sec space.[/quote]

And if he destroyed the vast majority of your finances in one popping, it probably doesn't matter to him that CONCORD just fucked his shit up royal.

Same shit, diffent pile. I was really hoping for more substance than that.

If the corp gets tired of mission running or whatever, they can all sit back and do a relaxing mining op shooting the shit in corp or local or whatever.

Oh wait! They need a space tavern or a yacht to do that!

Cause that's the end all be all of RPing. No, you can't RP while actually doing stuff! It all takes place in a tavern!

You know, sometimes a person just gets fucking tired of 'doing stuff.' Probably because it's too much like work.

And someone coming in to mess up your RP experience is part of the RP experience of EVE. If you don't like it, fine. But don't say it isn't still RPing. In fact, it can add a little bit of excitement to your personal story. And surprises are always interesting.

"Interesting" doesn't interest me, because it typically involves me getting the works.

And I don't give a shit if you like it. Just don't act like it's a requirement for RPing.

It's a hell of a lot more epic than anything I ever fucking saw in EvE.

EVE has quite a back story too. And you can be as involved in it as you want to.

EvE's backstory is a thin veneer of wordspam over an excuse to go and grief-PK someone for flying the wrong kind of ship/being from the wrong part of space.

Point still stands.

And how, exactly, can you do that in EvE? Oh right, you can't except by using a group chat and imagining that cantina, because CCP won't let you actually get out of the starship and go to the cantina.

And you have yet to show how the RP is less engaging. The example you showed could jsut as easily have been done in EVE. Just because you never actually leave you're pod in teh game, doesn't mean the character you're roleplaying doesn't.

And now you've got the goalposts mounted on rails! Let's recap: when it's my argument that the "reality" of the game can be bent for RP purposes (suspending disbelief about the number of times you may have done something mechanically in order to talk about it as if it was some heroic epic eed that you did once,) then it gets mocked; but when it's your argument, suddenly disbelief gets suspended, locked in a pod and ejected out the nearest airlock so you can use EvE as a very, very expensive text-based chat client for imagining the roleplaying.

It really sounds like the kind of RP you're into is really simplistic and spoon fed.

You have no idea what kind of RP I'm into.

Right. I'm sure it has nothing to do with a bigger marketing campaign, more name recognition, and and a completely different fanbase. No, you're right, it's all because you can''t play dressup.

I didn't say "all", moron.

And that's why I said it was a valid criticism. It's this way though, because that's what the playerbase wants. Even the carebears that don't PVP.

I have a feeling those carebears would stop feeling that way if it was their hauler that got popped by a sacrificial battleship and got all their shit stolen.

Hilariously just last week my corp did a "sightseeing-tour" around the EvE 'verse, visiting the Monolith, the EvE-Gate and a couple other sights while having fun on teamspeak (oh the horror). Granted, there were no yachts, and granted it involved some minor skirmishes. But still - there's more to EvE than "orbiting rocks" (no one even does that while mining because you'd take even longer to align your mining barge to something or you'd constantly fly out of Orca range, but whatever).

I used to. Then again, I wasn't in a barge, just a cruiser, and it got really, really dull watching an entirely unmoving scene. And congrats on going on the sightseeing tour, that's cool. I've been on sightseeing tours of the Star Wars universe from the inside of a yacht.

Also, you really don't need to constantly hammer the point that you cannot leave your pod. Walking in stations just is not (yet) in the game, so constantly demanding it is like me asking when your WOW toon last took his Battlecruiser out for a spin. I get that it would be important to you, and lots of people (me included) look forward to maybe sometime actually take a stroll around a space station - but it turns out that in an internet spaceships game most people care more about the spaceships

Funny how EnB at least managed to have that, though. It can't take that long to work out, they just don't give enough of a damn to do so.

Like Stark already showed you, there is a rich, vivid and diverse background to EvE. Yes, it's not all in the game in form of mission texts. But this is irrelevant because 1) the news Stark showed a screenshot of can be read at any news billboard at every stargate in the game and 2) EvE has an ingame browser to access all of the chronicles and EvElopedia. You can spend half an hour reading up on the biography of the chick that provided the ship computer's voice, for fuck's sake.

Oh yeah, like that's not immersion-breaking? I know that they wrote a background. My point is that they've done almost nothing with or about it except telling the players "okay, in addition to aligning with other players to kill the crap out of other players, now you can align with other players who are aligned with an NPC faction and go kill the crap out of other players aligned with other NPC factions."

Hilariously, there's a good chance this entire discussion would end if he just said "Yeah, it's not the kind of role playing I'm in to."

No one's forcing him to like a game he doesn't enjoy. No one's telling him to resub. We're just arguing with him because the reasons he gave were absurd, such as there being no RPing in EVE.

I never said there was no RPing in EvE, I said there was no RP support from CCP. Fine, I'll amend it to there being very damn little RP supportand most of it based on finding new ways to get your name on the frontpage by either fucking up royal or capitalizing on someone's fucking up royal.

Amusingly ambulation strikes me as a complete waste of time that adds nothing to the game (since it's just a slower menu), but hey, some people like dress-ups.

Oh I completely agree that it would be a unnecessary addition, but I think it'd be fun for an hour or so after it comes out - and it might be fun for things like corp meetings.

Only if you had handguns and could use them. Then it would be *awesome*, because it would lead to entire swaths of mild-mannered roleplayers being wiped out in gangland-style bar raids while they were innocently sipping their mead and discussing the unique individualism of their outfits.

Just the thought of that is making me giggle. Heheehehe!

I think I can see why he doesn't like EVE.

The best was in SWG, where my character seemed to be a harmless ditz of a Twi'lek dancer... Unless you knew she was such a good liar and sneak that she managed to infiltrate the Imperial forces and abscond with Darth Vader's own Eta-2 Actis starfighter, and went laughing with it all the way back to Tatooine, having tricked the Dark Lord of Sith into thinking she was a loyal daughter of the Empire. Or that she'd destroyed an Imperial Star Destroyer by her lonesome in it, and could terrorize Imperial starfighter forces with the best of them, all the while hiding in plain sight whilst on the ground, watching Imps coming into and out of cantinas and making note of the kinds of things they said they were about to get up to, because nobody watches what they say in front of the dancing girl.

Think about how much fucking over the top this is. Tricking Darth Vader so his character could steal his fucking ride. The rest is icing on the cake though, the "I destroyed an ISD...ALONE!!!" is somewhat funny and more outlandish then the first. But as stated in the beginning, it gives you a good look at why. He can't do that in EVE, and certainly can't roleplay it. In WoW? Maybe. But EVE? Not really.

It's true. I quit the Rebellion, waited a week for the heat to get off, joined the Empire, did the Imperial quests up to the point where Vader gives you the Eta-2 and says "Now go kill those rebels with it," then quit the empire, waited a week, re-joined the Rebellion, earned my piloting level back up, and took the Eta-2 and proceeded to kick ass with it.

And yes, I did solo the Star Destroyer. It's not easy, because those crazy fuckers gave it a realistic number of guns, and the Eta-2 has such a low equipment mass that I ran without armor. Literally any hit that pierced shields wiped out systems, and any hit from the big guns on that mothefucker would've been a one-hit wonder on my little ship. And at any time, some Imperial pilots might show up (since the ISD is in the PvP freeforall sector) and Complicated things. NPC TIEs, TIE Interceptors, TIE bombers, and TIE Defenders did Complicate things.

That was some seriously white-knuckled flying, but it can be done. It requres a good grasp of how to successfully strafe the shit out of a weak point and then fly away before you eat ten kajillion jiggawatts of hot turbolaser death. Also, requires a ship that's either a fucking capital battleship (which means the mining vessel, funnily enough,) or a ship that flies like a greased pig down a slip'n'slide and hits like Andre the Giant on a roid rage delivering a haymaker to a five-year-old.

I miss that ship.

Think about how much fucking over the top this is. Tricking Darth Vader so his character could steal his fucking ride. The rest is icing on the cake though, the "I destroyed an ISD...ALONE!!!" is somewhat funny and more outlandish then the first. But as stated in the beginning, it gives you a good look at why. He can't do that in EVE, and certainly can't roleplay it. In WoW? Maybe. But EVE? Not really.

Exactly what i said earlier - he needs to do the epix all on his own, or else they are nothing special - apparently.
Now, i do like epic things, i think everyone does - but if they are that over the top, they just feel cheap.

So, Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star with one torpedo barrage was cheap?

Well, SD is right that not as many EVE players do "in-character" roleplaying. However, it's worth noting that there are still dedicated roleplayers and roleplaying corps/alliances. One of them happens to be CVA, which, you know, built an empire, held it for years, and then lost it in an act of grand strategic and tactical stupidity. But remember: killing the Lich King for the 500th time and pretending it's the first, that's roleplaying. Being Amarr warriors dedicated to expanding the Empire into lawless space and then actually doing it? Not roleplaying.

I never said that wasn't RPing, though it sounds more like they were griefing assholes (and not terribly effective griefing assholes) who liked to spiel excuses for their griefing.

Now this, this encapsulates his level of stubborn stupidity.

Here's a hint. They aren't telling you how to have fun.

They keep doing that "lol dressup" mocking bullshit. That's telling me I fail at having fun and don't know what's fun.

They are telling you that what you are screaming of what is right and wrong are fundamentally flawed, and that your particular views in EVE are very skewed and outright incorrect. Then there is the esoteric view that you want to apply to what is Role Playing that is just flawed in regards to what one can and cannot do. Lastly, your notes of what should be pushed as role playing is a very heavy style over substance, thus eliciting it's own remarks from the crowd.

If I wanted to invent my own substance and have no style beyond what I can make for myself, I'd write an EvE module for Mongoose Traveller. I desire some amount of style provided for if I'm shelling out $16.00 a month for something.

You want to have fun waggling in WoW? Cool. But do not make a claim that it is superior because you get to dress up and sit in tavern, because that particular aspect is only superior to you and is not shared by others. Instead of leaving though after establishing this, you continue to provide fuel for everyone and then give examples of your stunning prose that you use in your RP sessions.

And they claim that my way is inferior with no more basis than my claim that my way is superior. So why am I definitionally the one who should eat crow and shut up?