Ten arrested in US on charges of spying for Russia

[Stuart]

I have a question though. Is it illegal to take anything from such agents at all, or is it only illegal if you actively help them?

It's not actually illegal but you might as well give up any hope of getting a job with a security clearance requirement and you'll find some types of permit and documents hard to get. It would be a large, stinky albatross around your neck from then on and you'd never, ever lose it. You're also likely to find yourself in long and intensely interesting conversations with strange and fascinating people. During the course of said conversations you'd have to prove that you'd never helped the foreign intelligence people and that they'd just given you the goodies because they admired your honest face.

You'd also have to accept that, every time there is a security leak with six or fewer degrees of seperation from you, said conversation with strange and fascinating people will be repeated and woe betide you if any of your answers in that conversation differed from ones in their previous equivalents. You will also have to accept that you may well suddenly become very accident-prone.

Better on the whole to steer clear of such people.

[PeZook]

What if you take the money and immediately report it to your superiors, hand over the cash and become a double agent?

EDIT: I'd imagine, of course, that people are still going to be suspicious of you, and of course you then begin to play a very dangerous game.

There's a funny anecdote I read in an interview once: There was a very good intelligence officer in a Russian embassy in France during the Cold War. He was cautious and professional and very, very good at his job, which of course annoyed the French to no end.

Since he never drank, never left the embassy alone and had no dirty affairs at all, the French decided to get rid of him quite cleverly.

They took an officer of theirs who looked a bit like the Russian, handed him a load of cash and had him do nothing but party, club around, pick up women, order the most expensive alcohols, etc. in Paris.

One day, the Russian took a very important guest from the Motherland to dinner in the city. The owner saw him and went "Hey, dude! Welcome! It's always good to see you! Do you want the usual?"

The officer was called back to Russia soon thereafter.

-------------

The point? It's probably a slippery game in the best of circumstances

[Stuart]

What if you take the money and immediately report it to your superiors, hand over the cash and become a double agent?

If one finds oneself in a meeting with suspected recruiters or people you ssuspect to be recruiters, the best way out is file a contact report immediately. It's simple damage limitation. In some cases, filing contact reports on people one meets is mandatory.

Double agents usually don't live very long. They tend to be extremely accident-prone. They've been known to fall out of high windows, accidentally consume seriously tainted shellfish, drive off bridges etc,

[Edi]

What if you take the money and immediately report it to your superiors, hand over the cash and become a double agent?

If one finds oneself in a meeting with suspected recruiters or people you ssuspect to be recruiters, the best way out is file a contact report immediately. It's simple damage limitation. In some cases, filing contact reports on people one meets is mandatory.

Quoted for truth. This is what you should do if approached by someone you recognize as being dodgy. It was the first thing they drilled into us in the military when security issues came up.

[PeZook]

Double agents usually don't live very long. They tend to be extremely accident-prone. They've been known to fall out of high windows, accidentally consume seriously tainted shellfish, drive off bridges etc,

Really? I thought real life was less like the movies, and somebody discovered acting as a double agent would simply get cut off or used to feed disinformation for a while.

Why murder him and risk some nosy cop discovering it wasn't really an accident?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Really? I thought real life was less like the movies, and somebody discovered acting as a double agent would simply get cut off or used to feed disinformation for a while.

Why murder him and risk some nosy cop discovering it wasn't really an accident?

Because you're a loose end AND an embarassment to whomever recruited you. Hell, back when I was consulting, even calling an international phone number that wasn't on my approved list would've gotten me a talking-to.

[PeZook]

Because you're a loose end AND an embarassment to whomever recruited you. Hell, back when I was consulting, even calling an international phone number that wasn't on my approved list would've gotten me a talking-to.

Of course you are, but is it really worth the risk of jeopardizing the entire cell to knock off some random State Department fluke who thought he could play the game as well as you?

I could understand some high-profile double agent who'd have the resources to damage your operation, but a university kid who got "recruited", ran to his boss and got used as double agent for a while?

Now I'm no intelligence guy, this is why I'm asking.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I could understand some high-profile double agent who'd have the resources to damage your operation, but a university kid who got "recruited", ran to his boss and got used as double agent for a while?

Double agents are not as great as you think. You need a LOT of them all feeding the same misinformation, or else they're going to figure out one of their spies has a different story than the others. Also, you're trying to run a covert operation with an inexperienced person who is already under observation by a foreign power.

Its not like the movies, and really not worth it. Double agents are only valuable at very high levels of government.

[PeZook]

Double agents are not as great as you think. You need a LOT of them all feeding the same misinformation, or else they're going to figure out one of their spies has a different story than the others.

Exactly my point: one man turning double agent is not going to do much damage, so why kill him? You risk some nosy cop figuring out it wasn't an accident, and then you have a wholly unnecessary diplomatic incident on your hands.

[CaptainChewbacca]

This isn't really relevant, but has anyone considered that maybe this is a really, really awesome viral marketing campaign for the movie SALT?

[Illuminatus Primus]

You will also have to accept that you may well suddenly become very accident-prone.

Better on the whole to steer clear of such people.

We're referring to assassinating our own citizens as spies or assassinating our foreign assets we find out are working against us?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Stuart, to bring this thread back to something more useful, could you write a little guide on when it's appropriate to file a contact report? I seriously doubt most technical professional students, even when entering into fields perfectly suited for finding themselves doing classified work, have the slightest clue about that, even though they'd be quite capable of following the directives if publicized.

[Stuart]

Stuart, to bring this thread back to something more useful, could you write a little guide on when it's appropriate to file a contact report? I seriously doubt most technical professional students, even when entering into fields perfectly suited for finding themselves doing classified work, have the slightest clue about that, even though they'd be quite capable of following the directives if publicized.

A contact report is basically the minutes of what was said at a specific meeting. It should list

Who was present at the meeting with a brief note on who they are
Where the meeting took place with a note on why you were there
When the meeting took place.
How the meeting took place.
What raised your suspicions about the meeting.

The body of the report is an account of what was said at the meeting. Any particular comments that stuck in your mind as being curious or out-of-place should be emphasized (for example, if the person who met you asked whether you worked on the new Type 26 frigate; something that would be a curious question on a first meeting). Also, everything you said as near as you can remember it (remember this may not be the only report filed on said meeting ). Also, very important, list every physical contact between you and the person of interest. Even shaking hands on meeting or if he bought a drink and you took the glass from his hands.

In some lines of business, filing contact reports is mandatory. It's not a bad principle by the way, even if you never file the report but just keep it for your own reference.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Stuart, to bring this thread back to something more useful, could you write a little guide on when it's appropriate to file a contact report? I seriously doubt most technical professional students, even when entering into fields perfectly suited for finding themselves doing classified work, have the slightest clue about that, even though they'd be quite capable of following the directives if publicized.

A contact report is basically the minutes of what was said at a specific meeting. It should list

Who was present at the meeting with a brief note on who they are
Where the meeting took place with a note on why you were there
When the meeting took place.
How the meeting took place.
What raised your suspicions about the meeting.

The body of the report is an account of what was said at the meeting. Any particular comments that stuck in your mind as being curious or out-of-place should be emphasized (for example, if the person who met you asked whether you worked on the new Type 26 frigate; something that would be a curious question on a first meeting). Also, everything you said as near as you can remember it (remember this may not be the only report filed on said meeting :D ). Also, very important, list every physical contact between you and the person of interest. Even shaking hands on meeting or if he bought a drink and you took the glass from his hands.

In some lines of business, filing contact reports is mandatory. It's not a bad principle by the way, even if you never file the report but just keep it for your own reference.

What he said . . .

In circumstances like that, though, don't forget the proverbial ounce of prevention. If you go into a line of work where filing contact reports is mandatory, or a you're a student whose career path will get you into such a line of work . . . don't talk about your work/education. When asked about what you do for a living; give a generic and uninteresting answer.

If someone presses you for details anyway, or if someone asks about a specific area of research/company product line, or if someone asks you questions about some person or another that you might be working with, or even if someone you talk to self-identifies as a foreign national of any sort; those are things that count as "things you should report."

tl;dr version: If you do interesting work, don't talk about it. Report everything to your local security professional.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I want to know if we're talking about secretly extrajudicially murdering Americans because we suspect them of being double agents.

[Questor]

I want to know if we're talking about secretly extrajudicially murdering Americans because we suspect them of being double agents.

I'm pretty sure he's saying that the recruiting group gives them a bad time, but good job on the paranoia.

[Imperial Overlord]

I want to know if we're talking about secretly extrajudicially murdering Americans because we suspect them of being double agents.

I'm pretty sure he's saying that the recruiting group gives them a bad time, but good job on the paranoia.

The line in question is

You will also have to accept that you may well suddenly become very accident-prone.

That's clearly talking about taking action against such people, including possibly fatal "accidents". There's plenty of ambiguity in there, like whether Stuart is talking about America specifically or the world in general, but that's what IP is asking about in the first place.

[Stuart]

I'm pretty sure he's saying that the recruiting group gives them a bad time, but good job on the paranoia.

It's generally true that, once one gets involved in that world and with those people, it's not good for your health. A lot of people develop a disturbing interest in your welfare (or sudden end thereof).

By the way, it's worth noting that false-flag recruiting is the rule rather than the exception. For example a devout Christian may be recruited by a group that claims to need information on X to facilitate missionary activities in country Y. However, they actually work for country B and need the information on X for their work on disrupting country Y. Or that's what they think; they were actually recruited by country Z to disrupt relationships between countries B and Y. And don't think that sort of game is restricted to countries. So, the best advice I can give is, if you really must get involved in that kind of world, do it for the money. You'll never find out who you were really working for

Safest for your health is to run a mile at extreme velocity any time one has suspicions that a recruitment deal (whether illegal, legal or criminal) is in the works. And report it to the authorities.

[Gil Hamilton]

My academic advisor told me once that she spent a good deal of her time when she worked in industry reverse engineering other company's paints to figure out how to make them just in case they knew something that her employers didn't... and it occasionally it didn't involve going to Home Depot and buying cans of paint. Appearantly, it can involve tricking low level employees of other companies who have keys and a certain amount of gullibility to show them their truck which they ship bulk product in. What's interesting is the woman who did this (not my academic advisor) wasn't even particularly attractive, just that she sounded really interested in what these people did.

We all had a chuckle about that, but when you work in industry, the lesson is that you should tend to think twice if anyone honestly seems to give a crap about your stupid job.

[Stuart]

We all had a chuckle about that, but when you work in industry, the lesson is that you should tend to think twice if anyone honestly seems to give a crap about your stupid job.

Exactly; also companies that do have industrial secrets are known to hire security consultants who specialize in finding out which employees don't keep their mouths closed -and attractive females are one tool in that arsenal. Giving away a closely-guarded industrial secret in exchange for a couple of hours horizontal jogging tends to be career-limiting.

[Redleader34]

Hey all, I'm now in DEP to be a nuke, are there any tips to avoid talking to COMMUNISST/AL QUDEA AGENTS/GREENPEACE/WIKILEAKS comedy answer people. From the way you are talking, it seems like spies are everywhere, even on the internet. Should I just become a hermit, or just not mention work? Sorry for carrying on with the sort of offtopic conversation.

[Stofsk]

It's cool, you can talk to whoever you want. But if you slip and fall in the shower you've got nobody to blame but yourself.

Well... maybe you can blame the 'shower' for pushing you.

[Gil Hamilton]

Hey all, I'm now in DEP to be a nuke, are there any tips to avoid talking to COMMUNISST/AL QUDEA AGENTS/GREENPEACE/WIKILEAKS comedy answer people. From the way you are talking, it seems like spies are everywhere, even on the internet. Should I just become a hermit, or just not mention work? Sorry for carrying on with the sort of offtopic conversation.

I believe the key is to have an excellent idea about the sort of things you shouldn't think about outside of work and slap yourself if they cross your mind, let alone talk about. This includes things you might consider trivial that other people care about. It might actually be a trade secret that your product contains 5% more xylene isomers by weight than is generally in such things and there are people who take offense to you talking about it. So don't do it.

For homework, watch the movie "Thank You For Smoking" and pay careful attention to the dialogue
Bobby: "...and she's got glorious tits."
Polly: "What? How are tits relevant?"
Bobby: "World class tits on a reporter interviewing a man with privilegded information are relevant."
Polly: "How about it, Nick? Are you a tit man?"
Bobby: "Don't answer that, it's a trap."
Nick: "Depends on the tits."

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Should I just become a hermit, or just not mention work? Sorry for carrying on with the sort of offtopic conversation.

You have security focals in your field. Talk to them and get their advice. That's what they're there fore, and they are generally on your side. Keep your work at work. Don't bring work talk home with you, or take it out into a bar.