The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[yaque]

Nah, I think that the Greek/Roman pantheon was one of those other pocket universe B's that got shut out by Yahweh.
(Something like this was hinted at early in Armageddon, IIRC).
Also for sure the Hindu pantheon, and a number of others, like maybe
Voodoo, Cthulhu, (please!), Odin and company, the Maya pantheon and probably at least several more.
Anybody got any ideas for some good ones? I

Anyway, now that Satan is toast, and Yahyah is on his way, will we see some of them try to get involved again in human affairs? Or have been discreetly involved all along?
This could get VERY interesting.

[Night_stalker]

Hmm, as long as we don't get to find out if Lovecraft was right about the Old Ones, I don't mind that idea too much. Maybe like you said all the other dieties were sealed from Earth due to Yaw-Yaw and now they MIGHT be coming back.

[yaque]

"Sealed from Earth" hmm...
IIRC Yahweh imposed some kind of "agreement" on all his competitors to lay off.
To what extent they actually kept to this remains to be seen.
(Maybe Cthulhu "dabbled" a little, sending nightmares to Lovecraft, heh)

In any case, now all bets are off!

(Though I feel we shouldn't go so far as to fall into R.A.Heinlein's "Pantheistic solipsism")

[darksoul]

Hmm, as long as we don't get to find out if Lovecraft was right about the Old Ones, I don't mind that idea too much. Maybe like you said all the other dieties were sealed from Earth due to Yaw-Yaw and now they MIGHT be coming back.

Well, it follows that if Angels and demons expelled other deities out of Earth, and we expelled them out of their lands... Unless they all come together in force, by surprise, through several portals, and from Universe C, I don't care. They wouldn't be a threat. The Old Ones are a different business, however, although I wouldn't count on them since they weren't a religion. It would be the same as worrying about Scientology as if it were more than a mere literary work. So no, I don't count on seeing either in TSW. It would be against the hard sci-fi it had followed so far.

As for Elhmas spawning heroes in Greece, I seem to recall that angels have low fertility, so it is unlikely. Moreover, Zeus was the Greek god with the most impressive record in that field, and he and Jesus couldn't be the same, even if only because Yahwe wouldn't allow his son to become the prime figure in any religion. Even when Jesus founded the Christians (a fact Yahwe is aware of) he was prominent, but not the first. So that were just another kind of nephilim. Which begs the question: Those who talk about the chance that the accelerated development of humans is the result of the meddling of others, I can hypothesize that human nephilim of other races were used to develop humanity into a weapon for centuries, not caring in the least about our welfare. Progress is not all about good things after all. Now that the revenge plan has being accomplished (or close) the agenda of those manipulators is unknown.
Of course no other races are likely to give away technological presents, but they could shape society in a way technology is unavoidable (the Renaissance comes to mind) and weaponize mankind as a result. If this is the case, their Batman gambit may result, but humanity might be already to big a fish to fry. Alternatives are numerous, so I'll refrain from speculating by myself any further.

[Nematocyst]

As for Elhmas spawning heroes in Greece, I seem to recall that angels have low fertility, so it is unlikely.

But Jesus isn't an angel. He's a Yahweh-class being.

About other pantheons attacking us, you are right. Yahweh & Co. beat them, and we are in the process of beating Yahweh & Co., ergo, we should be able to defeat those other pantheons.

[impatrick4life]

As for Elhmas spawning heroes in Greece, I seem to recall that angels have low fertility, so it is unlikely.

But Jesus isn't an angel. He's a Yahweh-class being.

About other pantheons attacking us, you are right. Yahweh & Co. beat them, and we are in the process of beating Yahweh & Co., ergo, we should be able to defeat those other pantheons.

Unless they technologically progressed / had a particular weakness to Universe B's electrically-based (lightning) powers.

[darksoul]

As for Elhmas spawning heroes in Greece, I seem to recall that angels have low fertility, so it is unlikely.

But Jesus isn't an angel. He's a Yahweh-class being.

About other pantheons attacking us, you are right. Yahweh & Co. beat them, and we are in the process of beating Yahweh & Co., ergo, we should be able to defeat those other pantheons.

Unless they technologically progressed / had a particular weakness to Universe B's electrically-based (lightning) powers.

Haven't thought about that. Yet given the diversity of power and characteristics of pantheons in human history, and assuming each one is true and corresponding with a banished race, it's statistically unlikely that they are all susceptible in the same way to the same powers. I believe angels and demons won because they were stronger, that's all. About the technological progress... That's one way to see it, but arises another problem: Why didn't they use it to strike at Yahwe? Unless they are numerically scarce, very casualty adverse, and wanted to use someone to take the heat away in the battle. Kind of what second lifers seem to be doing with the baldricks in the new joint-arms strategies. We can work with that, I guess.

I missed the part where it is stated that Yahwe is not a angel. It is specifically said in the text? I honestly don't remember, but I think Yahwe is an angel, just older and more powerful. He has the same powers than Michael, albeit on steroids. Besides, if he isn't, how can he had a son with a human/angel (it is still unknown who the mother of Elhmas is)? Given that the series is not a proponent of convergent evolution (I don't know if that's the exact term, but it conveys the idea), for Yahwe to breed with angels/humans He ought to be an offshot of the original race, or simply, an angel, as baldricks were once. I'm going with the second one unless specifically proven wrong.

[Akalabeth]

I believe the speculation comes from the fact that nothing about Yahweh's or Satan's physical appearance was ever stated within the story, except for "really big". At the least, I don't remember anything being stated. I'm pretty sure it's just audience speculation though, we don't really know one way or the other.

[GrayAnderson]

Hmm, as long as we don't get to find out if Lovecraft was right about the Old Ones, I don't mind that idea too much. Maybe like you said all the other dieties were sealed from Earth due to Yaw-Yaw and now they MIGHT be coming back.

Well, it follows that if Angels and demons expelled other deities out of Earth, and we expelled them out of their lands... Unless they all come together in force, by surprise, through several portals, and from Universe C, I don't care. They wouldn't be a threat. The Old Ones are a different business, however, although I wouldn't count on them since they weren't a religion. It would be the same as worrying about Scientology as if it were more than a mere literary work. So no, I don't count on seeing either in TSW. It would be against the hard sci-fi it had followed so far.

As for Elhmas spawning heroes in Greece, I seem to recall that angels have low fertility, so it is unlikely. Moreover, Zeus was the Greek god with the most impressive record in that field, and he and Jesus couldn't be the same, even if only because Yahwe wouldn't allow his son to become the prime figure in any religion. Even when Jesus founded the Christians (a fact Yahwe is aware of) he was prominent, but not the first. So that were just another kind of nephilim. Which begs the question: Those who talk about the chance that the accelerated development of humans is the result of the meddling of others, I can hypothesize that human nephilim of other races were used to develop humanity into a weapon for centuries, not caring in the least about our welfare. Progress is not all about good things after all. Now that the revenge plan has being accomplished (or close) the agenda of those manipulators is unknown.
Of course no other races are likely to give away technological presents, but they could shape society in a way technology is unavoidable (the Renaissance comes to mind) and weaponize mankind as a result. If this is the case, their Batman gambit may result, but humanity might be already to big a fish to fry. Alternatives are numerous, so I'll refrain from speculating by myself any further.

The closest analogy for Jesus in the Greek myths was Dionysus, by the way. There are apparently a respectable number of similarities (Dionysus was born both of a mortal woman and of Zeus due to some interesting quirks in the story...which suggests an attempt to intervene in Greek religion. The fact that a number of rituals were apparently brought over in modified form also suggests this...consider Dionysus as a "first attempt" or one of several larks on the part of Elhmas.

By the way, I think I missed it, but where did the name "Elhmas" come from?

[darksoul]

Hmm, as long as we don't get to find out if Lovecraft was right about the Old Ones, I don't mind that idea too much. Maybe like you said all the other dieties were sealed from Earth due to Yaw-Yaw and now they MIGHT be coming back.

Well, it follows that if Angels and demons expelled other deities out of Earth, and we expelled them out of their lands... Unless they all come together in force, by surprise, through several portals, and from Universe C, I don't care. They wouldn't be a threat. The Old Ones are a different business, however, although I wouldn't count on them since they weren't a religion. It would be the same as worrying about Scientology as if it were more than a mere literary work. So no, I don't count on seeing either in TSW. It would be against the hard sci-fi it had followed so far.

As for Elhmas spawning heroes in Greece, I seem to recall that angels have low fertility, so it is unlikely. Moreover, Zeus was the Greek god with the most impressive record in that field, and he and Jesus couldn't be the same, even if only because Yahwe wouldn't allow his son to become the prime figure in any religion. Even when Jesus founded the Christians (a fact Yahwe is aware of) he was prominent, but not the first. So that were just another kind of nephilim. Which begs the question: Those who talk about the chance that the accelerated development of humans is the result of the meddling of others, I can hypothesize that human nephilim of other races were used to develop humanity into a weapon for centuries, not caring in the least about our welfare. Progress is not all about good things after all. Now that the revenge plan has being accomplished (or close) the agenda of those manipulators is unknown.
Of course no other races are likely to give away technological presents, but they could shape society in a way technology is unavoidable (the Renaissance comes to mind) and weaponize mankind as a result. If this is the case, their Batman gambit may result, but humanity might be already to big a fish to fry. Alternatives are numerous, so I'll refrain from speculating by myself any further.

The closest analogy for Jesus in the Greek myths was Dionysus, by the way. There are apparently a respectable number of similarities (Dionysus was born both of a mortal woman and of Zeus due to some interesting quirks in the story...which suggests an attempt to intervene in Greek religion. The fact that a number of rituals were apparently brought over in modified form also suggests this...consider Dionysus as a "first attempt" or one of several larks on the part of Elhmas.

By the way, I think I missed it, but where did the name "Elhmas" come from?

Yep, Dionysus can do. if Zeus is Yahwe (they both control the heavens and lighting, and are pretty arrogant and capricious). But if we consider that an early incarnation of Jesus in his attempts to create a cult, why the gloomy outlook on afterlife in the Greeks? That's not coherent. Back then, Heaven's door weren't shut, so there were no reason not to promise such afterlife for the Greeks. Although warriors wouldn't consider Heaven as such, slaves would.
Besides that, if we overlook that and consider that Jesus had made several attempts at a stable cult, why is he trying so hard? Is(was) he making a power base outside Heaven for some reason, and The Message cut him out of it? Now it would be so cool if Jesus would be playing Michael while Michael played Yahwe while Yahwe fooled the humans Plans within plans within plans, if you catch the reference

As for the name, well, the author has an uncanny ability for that, as previously noted

[Commander Xillian]

By the way, I think I missed it, but where did the name "Elhmas" come from?

My best guess would be someones butt cheeks, but as stated before, Stuart here has the uncanny ability to pull some wild shit yet still be totally correct. I suppose we wait and hope he takes notice of this little question.

[GrayAnderson]

Well, it follows that if Angels and demons expelled other deities out of Earth, and we expelled them out of their lands... Unless they all come together in force, by surprise, through several portals, and from Universe C, I don't care. They wouldn't be a threat. The Old Ones are a different business, however, although I wouldn't count on them since they weren't a religion. It would be the same as worrying about Scientology as if it were more than a mere literary work. So no, I don't count on seeing either in TSW. It would be against the hard sci-fi it had followed so far.

As for Elhmas spawning heroes in Greece, I seem to recall that angels have low fertility, so it is unlikely. Moreover, Zeus was the Greek god with the most impressive record in that field, and he and Jesus couldn't be the same, even if only because Yahwe wouldn't allow his son to become the prime figure in any religion. Even when Jesus founded the Christians (a fact Yahwe is aware of) he was prominent, but not the first. So that were just another kind of nephilim. Which begs the question: Those who talk about the chance that the accelerated development of humans is the result of the meddling of others, I can hypothesize that human nephilim of other races were used to develop humanity into a weapon for centuries, not caring in the least about our welfare. Progress is not all about good things after all. Now that the revenge plan has being accomplished (or close) the agenda of those manipulators is unknown.
Of course no other races are likely to give away technological presents, but they could shape society in a way technology is unavoidable (the Renaissance comes to mind) and weaponize mankind as a result. If this is the case, their Batman gambit may result, but humanity might be already to big a fish to fry. Alternatives are numerous, so I'll refrain from speculating by myself any further.

The closest analogy for Jesus in the Greek myths was Dionysus, by the way. There are apparently a respectable number of similarities (Dionysus was born both of a mortal woman and of Zeus due to some interesting quirks in the story...which suggests an attempt to intervene in Greek religion. The fact that a number of rituals were apparently brought over in modified form also suggests this...consider Dionysus as a "first attempt" or one of several larks on the part of Elhmas.

By the way, I think I missed it, but where did the name "Elhmas" come from?

Yep, Dionysus can do. if Zeus is Yahwe (they both control the heavens and lighting, and are pretty arrogant and capricious). But if we consider that an early incarnation of Jesus in his attempts to create a cult, why the gloomy outlook on afterlife in the Greeks? That's not coherent. Back then, Heaven's door weren't shut, so there were no reason not to promise such afterlife for the Greeks. Although warriors wouldn't consider Heaven as such, slaves would.
Besides that, if we overlook that and consider that Jesus had made several attempts at a stable cult, why is he trying so hard? Is(was) he making a power base outside Heaven for some reason, and The Message cut him out of it? Now it would be so cool if Jesus would be playing Michael while Michael played Yahwe while Yahwe fooled the humans Plans within plans within plans, if you catch the reference

As for the name, well, the author has an uncanny ability for that, as previously noted

The gloomy outlook would be a result of the underlying system that was tinkered with. Note that the mystery cults which emerged (one in particular centering around Dionysus) often included talk of eternal life, etc. Basically, he came in and tried to get things going as he wanted, but overriding the underlying impulses of the culture that predated the intervention proved to be impossible.

As to why he's trying so hard? Two possible motives come to mind:
First, sheer boredom. You're first in line to become the top guy in an organization when the current occupant moves out...and have been for the last half million years, and seem quite secure in remaining in that position. That's going to lead to you doing some interesting things in your spare time. Do note that he doesn't seem to have actively intervened very much within Christianity since even before the gates were shut unless he's the one running Marian apparitions (which seems perhaps a bit dubious, else he'd be much more in tune with what was going on).

Second, his father was attempting to groom him to take on similar projects in the long run. The fact that he expressed what felt like disappointment suggests that he wanted him to get to the point that he could run a similar routine on other worlds...or at least take a more active role in running the show.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_%28religion%29 This looks rather familiar. I think we can regard Orphism in particular as a precursor attempt (and it is tightly bound in with the Dionysus stuff).

[EdBecerra]

"Sealed from Earth" hmm...
IIRC Yahweh imposed some kind of "agreement" on all his competitors to lay off.
To what extent they actually kept to this remains to be seen.
(Maybe Cthulhu "dabbled" a little, sending nightmares to Lovecraft, heh)

In any case, now all bets are off!

(Though I feel we shouldn't go so far as to fall into R.A.Heinlein's "Pantheistic solipsism")

Awwww.... why not? Then we could all basically bug out to whatever universe we consider closest to our heart's desire!

(With entire armies of geeks deserting Earth for various realities based on hentai manga... )

Ed.

[darksoul]

(With entire armies of geeks deserting Earth for various realities based on hentai manga... )

Hell yeah! Where do I sign?

[yaque]

Hentai Manga. wuzzat? ... gooogle, google, goo..
Whoa! NSFW! eh, learn something new every day.

I'm old fashioned, I guess,
I'll stick with ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! fhtagn! fhtagn!

[kulervo]

On the topic of pantheons to be explored in book three:

IIRC Caesar is protected by the Cybele, so far the only explicitly named deity. A quick refresher says mother goddess, lion throne, lion pulled chariot and son/consort. Since the son was killed and resurrected and was then consort a wild guess would have him as a second life nephilim. If that is the way Stuart goes she might be a decent sort.

Daemons are afraid of devils, but that's an indo-European root word, could mean any divinity. I might guess Indian, devas.

Next, most pantheons include a generational dispute, if we make that the war between yah yah and their pantheon, we might only see the earlier gods. So, maybe no Odin or Zeus, younger succeeding gods with lightning powers. Instead maybe the Titans and giants.

If we do see the titans I hope Stuart remembers Hesiod's golden age when men and gods worked together.

[MysteriousDarkLordv3]

Hentai Manga. wuzzat? ... gooogle, google, goo..
Whoa! NSFW! eh, learn something new every day.

I'm old fashioned, I guess,
I'll stick with ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! fhtagn! fhtagn!

Why be exclusive? Both gots lotsa tentacles!

[Commander Xillian]

Aaah, the wonders of the internet. I'm shocked it took this long for the discussion to move off into porn and porn related conversations. Let's not get this story locked and shut down eh?

[darksoul]

Aaah, the wonders of the internet. I'm shocked it took this long for the discussion to move off into porn and porn related conversations. Let's not get this story locked and shut down eh?

Hehehe. At least it took longer than the Hitler reference
OK, I agree, let's keep it professional. Although Lovecraft based hentai does sound sweet!
Sorry, will indulge my low instincts no further. (sigh)

[Chamale]

Hentai Manga. wuzzat? ... gooogle, google, goo..
Whoa! NSFW! eh, learn something new every day.

I'm old fashioned, I guess,
I'll stick with ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! fhtagn! fhtagn!

I've been lurking here for months, and finally the ball's in my court. I can make my first post in response to a subject I know a great deal about.

Your grammar's wrong. If you want to reemphasize "ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", you want to add "fhtagn Cthulhu". This forms a command out of the existing words, to say "Continue waiting, Cthulhu."

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. Fhtagn, Cthulhu, fhtagn.

On-topic, now: I'm not as worried about encountering other hostile deities in other bubble-worlds, as I am concerned that some humans might botch first contact and inadvertently start a war. It's quite possible that humans are the most advanced species known to Yahweh, in which case first contact with less advanced species could go very badly for them.

On the other hand, there's a strong possibility that other species have advanced more than humanity, but stayed out of Universe-A because they still feared the Eternal Armies. In the past 2,000 years, there have been scarce centers of technological development while most of the world stagnated. If there was some species that, due to a quirk in psychology or culture, could have a long worldwide "golden age", this species could easily overtake humanity. As was said in the Armageddon thread, an outside observer would notice little difference between the year 0 and the year 1000. Many important inventions, such as steam power and algebra, were invented in this period. However, humans did not take advantage of their new technologies in military or economic ways. A species that did could have undergone far more progress than humanity has in 2,000 years.

Imagine even the technological difference that would result if this species could invent 5% faster than humans - all else being equal since 1 CE, their technology would now be at the year 2110. Human history has many examples of a well-meaning advanced first contact degrading into conflict, subjugation, and oppression.

[impatrick4life]

About other pantheons attacking us, you are right. Yahweh & Co. beat them, and we are in the process of beating Yahweh & Co., ergo, we should be able to defeat those other pantheons.

Unless they technologically progressed / had a particular weakness to Universe B's electrically-based (lightning) powers.

Haven't thought about that. Yet given the diversity of power and characteristics of pantheons in human history, and assuming each one is true and corresponding with a banished race, it's statistically unlikely that they are all susceptible in the same way to the same powers. I believe angels and demons won because they were stronger, that's all. About the technological progress... That's one way to see it, but arises another problem: Why didn't they use it to strike at Yahwe? Unless they are numerically scarce, very casualty adverse, and wanted to use someone to take the heat away in the battle. Kind of what second lifers seem to be doing with the baldricks in the new joint-arms strategies. We can work with that, I guess.

I missed the part where it is stated that Yahwe is not a angel. It is specifically said in the text? I honestly don't remember, but I think Yahwe is an angel, just older and more powerful. He has the same powers than Michael, albeit on steroids. Besides, if he isn't, how can he had a son with a human/angel (it is still unknown who the mother of Elhmas is)? Given that the series is not a proponent of convergent evolution (I don't know if that's the exact term, but it conveys the idea), for Yahwe to breed with angels/humans He ought to be an offshot of the original race, or simply, an angel, as baldricks were once. I'm going with the second one unless specifically proven wrong.

What I put forth to explain the multiple races thing is that, during that period, Yahweh was not yet drunk on power to the degree that he is now. Perhaps all Universe-C entities suffered a weakness to light- or electricity-based attacks and some archangel (Michael or Uriel, perhaps?) discovered it, and a more open-minded Yahweh accepted it and used his new abilities to blow their collective ass out of Heaven. The other universes, licking their wounds at this point, decided they needed something to give themselves an edge over Yahweh, and have technologically advanced themselves to a good degree (WWI tech, perhaps) within the limits their cultures provide. Some could be beyond our level, some could still be bronze-age, and some could be right around our level.

Frankly, if the angels had technology to the point of breech-loaders or even mag-/clip-fed bolt-actions, or, hell, even bows and arrows, we'd have been screwed. So if any of the Cs possess that level of tech, the second-lifers in Heaven and Hell are screwed. The situation becomes critical if they're not UCers but UBers.

[darksoul]

What I put forth to explain the multiple races thing is that, during that period, Yahweh was not yet drunk on power to the degree that he is now. Perhaps all Universe-C entities suffered a weakness to light- or electricity-based attacks and some archangel (Michael or Uriel, perhaps?) discovered it, and a more open-minded Yahweh accepted it and used his new abilities to blow their collective ass out of Heaven. The other universes, licking their wounds at this point, decided they needed something to give themselves an edge over Yahweh, and have technologically advanced themselves to a good degree (WWI tech, perhaps) within the limits their cultures provide. Some could be beyond our level, some could still be bronze-age, and some could be right around our level.

Frankly, if the angels had technology to the point of breech-loaders or even mag-/clip-fed bolt-actions, or, hell, even bows and arrows, we'd have been screwed. So if any of the Cs possess that level of tech, the second-lifers in Heaven and Hell are screwed. The situation becomes critical if they're not UCers but UBers.[/quote]

Now that we talk about Uriel, his mysterious life snatching ability might be the edge Heaven had over the other pantheons. After all, he had to do something to earn the "Sword and Shield of Yahwe" title, did he not?
The choice here is dependent of the author' point of view on the HumansAreSpecial trope. So far humans ARE special, but at least Dr. Surlethe is wary of what might be found opening random portals. Not to mention that we can find beings that doesn't have anything to do with known ones, and those might very well be more advanced than us. But this is a matter of literary creation... we can assume anything here because everything is possible at this point.

I disagree with the "UBers with weaponry are really tough" idea. We had discussed that at large recently, and industrial level weaponry is out of the question economically and socially. But supposing angels had those weapons, they would have been crushed nonetheless. More casualties, but still crushed. And they didn't had bows and arrows, but they did shoot scary lightnings. The bows would had the range to reach artillery or even tanks, if they had wouldn't have the power to penetrate the armor, if they had wouldn't had the speed the catch aircraft, and finally if they had wouldn't had the fire ratio necessary to keep a baldrick infantry regiment from approaching, supported by human weapons. It would change the tactics, yes, but not the outcome.

[impatrick4life]

Socially speaking, technology might have been possible in some of the other universes.

[darksoul]

Socially speaking, technology might have been possible in some of the other universes.

given that nothing is known in those other universes, yes, of course it's possible. Given enough worlds is not only possible, but statistically probable, etc.

What's more interesting, which of the known pantheons is more likely to have develop some technology?

[Werrf]

Just a word on the cosmology (as I understand it), there's no need for us to go to Universe C for Yahweh's enemies, any other of the bubble worlds in U-B would do just fine. Hell and Heaven are just two of the bubbles in the foam that makes up Universe B, while U-A is a crossroads for them because it's so easy to open portals from B to A, and from A to B, but so hard to open them from B to B.

U-C from what we've seen has such radically different physical laws that neither we nor the U-B denizens can interact with it in any meaningful way, making it an unlikely source for the Devils that Yahweh fought.

Unless, of course, I'm missing or have forgotten some part of the explanation (entirely possible - elucidate me if I have).