SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread I

[PeZook]

Besides, if you really want to kill psykers, you could just accept Steve's ruling and post armed policemen around Blitschlag field generators and shoot anybody who exhibits symptoms of a headache and/or passes out.

You'd be despicable, but making people's heads explode already is

[MKSheppard]

Or like other folks without psychers but with a healthy paranoia your system for dealing with psionic agents sent into your nation could just rely on say...shooting them in the head or something similar?

How's that going to work when the captured psonic agent mentally suggests to Shepistani Bureau Agent Scully that she really ought to shoot Agent Mulder in the head, and then shoot herself (after releasing the restraints on the agent of course)?

[MKSheppard]

Besides, if you really want to kill psykers, you could just accept Steve's ruling and post armed policemen around Blitschlag field generators and shoot anybody who exhibits symptoms of a headache and/or passes out.

It's the logical extension of anti-psonic fields, you realize. If putting x energy through this field makes psykers get headaches, what happens when we boost the power of the field?

[Grif]

Or like other folks without psychers but with a healthy paranoia your system for dealing with psionic agents sent into your nation could just rely on say...shooting them in the head or something similar?

How's that going to work when the captured psonic agent mentally suggests to Shepistani Bureau Agent Scully that she really ought to shoot Agent Mulder in the head, and then shoot herself (after releasing the restraints on the agent of course)?

I thought the field is supposed to prevent exactly that?

[PeZook]

How's that going to work when the captured psonic agent mentally suggests to Shepistani Bureau Agent Scully that she really ought to shoot Agent Mulder in the head, and then shoot herself (after releasing the restraints on the agent of course)?

You'll keep them in null-fielded cells, of course, and have them handled by uploads and/or security bots for added security. Also, procedures would say that any directive made by anybody before the guy is secured in a cell doesn't apply: so even if Agent Scully sees a signed order from the President saying "BTW release the guy" he goes "Yeah, Shep, you'll have to sign another form after this guys is locked up"

And finally, have agents simply not know the codes to the restraints, and be armed with nothing more than wireless tasers (set so that they zap the holder if an IFF system detect a trigger press while they're pointed at a Shepistani agent of the law).

Paranoid enough for you?

It's the logical extension of anti-psonic fields, you realize. If putting x energy through this field makes psykers get headaches, what happens when we boost the power of the field?

I have no idea. How does our FTL drive prevent causality paradoxes?

[Darkevilme]

Or like other folks without psychers but with a healthy paranoia your system for dealing with psionic agents sent into your nation could just rely on say...shooting them in the head or something similar?

How's that going to work when the captured psonic agent mentally suggests to Shepistani Bureau Agent Scully that she really ought to shoot Agent Mulder in the head, and then shoot herself (after releasing the restraints on the agent of course)?

Well if Shepistani is putting anti psycher Blitz devices on their high security power armour soldiers but not the agents they're sending to apprehend and interrogate dangerous foreign psychers then i think the problem does not lie in a lack of head-melt'o'field.

[MKSheppard]

Well if Shepistani is putting anti psycher Blitz devices on their high security power armour soldiers but not the agents they're sending to apprehend and interrogate dangerous foreign psychers then i think the problem does not lie in a lack of head-melt'o'field.

Being able to apprehend and or shoot psykers in the head only works if you have a anti psyker field that prevents such mental suggestions by the enemy psyker. Otherwise, it's too easy for the psyker to game their way through a dragnet.

"You do not see me."

"I don't have these droids with me."

"I am not the agent you are looking for. You are looking for this guy." *hold up picture of President SHeppard*

[MKSheppard]

You'll keep them in null-fielded cells, of course.

Or we could just kill them during capture, to avoid any sticky wickets later on and just read the stuff on their corpses or interrogate their non-psyker comrades. Yes; we could keep them in a null cell; but why take chances that the power flickers?

And yes, I will be adopting your suggestion of shooting people who act strange around Blitzschlag fields -- because after all, it could be a psyker wearing a special blocking device device that manages to block enough of the Blitzschlag effect so that they don't die.

[PeZook]

Or we could just kill them during capture, to avoid any sticky wickets later on and just read the stuff on their corpses or interrogate their non-psyker comrades. Yes; we could keep them in a null cell; but why take chances that the power flickers?

Dude, it's you who suggested imprisonment, as uncharacteristic as it seems

Darkevilme and myself both defaulted to shooting them in the head because, well, you're you and all that.

I could expect you'll have some significant problems with psyker political movements, terrorists and similar folks, though, because people generally don't appreciate being shot in the streets

Ah, how nice that we don't have to deal with spies. Organic outside trade station = intruder

[Steve]

I already said what the generators can do. At most, the most powerful active system can render an ESPer unconscious if they get too close to the generating source.

That's the most retarded pile of bullshit ever. Psykers can do all sorts of things like pick up people, toss them around, throw things at people, invade people's minds, or burn their minds out; but nobody in this universe has gone: "Can we find a way to first nullify the psyker advantage and then go on the offensive against them?" all the more so if Psykers are rare in your race?

You'll notice I haven't banned actual anti-ESP capabilities, I've banned your "insta-kill" ones. There's a distinction.

Also, I love the idea of "ha ha ha ha null fields only nullify psyker powers and if of sufficient power, render them unconscious, they will be fine once the null field passes" -- I bet a lot of people who suffer from chronic hearing loss would love it for the world to behave like that. You don't get your hearing back 100% after being exposed to 15 minutes of 100 decibel noise.

You're the one drawing a parallel between them, which nobody else is. The fact is I will not permit you or anyone else to have "insta-kill" anti-ESP defenses - whether they make their heads explode or they cause fatal brain aneurysms and hemorrhages - and I don't care what semantic arguments you want to bring out to justify them. If you want to insist on this line of argument I can always rule that no active "anti-ESP" defense technology is possible in the STGOD, only passive stuff that doesn't directly interact with the minds of ESPers.

Head burn-out wouldn't happen unless the teep was exposed to a really intense short range anti-psyke field like say... a thrown anti teep grenade; or a directed anti-teep weapon that focuses the energy instead of radiating it out omnidirectionally like the typical Blitzschlag Field Generators do.

And head burn out amongst teeps exposed to blitzschlag generators would not be much of an issue -- because after a point, the teep would stop advancing towards the BFG; because the noise in their head would get to a point where they say "hey you know, fuck this" -- keeping them out of secure areas; because they value their lives more than whatever piece of information they needed to grab in Shepistani Military HQ.

And as a side bonus; extended exposure to BFGs would tend to burn out the Psyker section of the brain -- in the same way being exposed to loud noise continuously deafens people. So you could send a teep into the Shepistani Federation, and he'd come back alive; but he wouldn't be able to do anything, due to all the noise filling his head; and he'd come back with his psyker powers permanently reduced; perhaps even to the point of teeplessness.

You know, I don't mind that quite as much. It gives you the powerful anti-ESP defense you want and it's not irrevocably permanent, nor quite as likely to be abused (your smaller-scale stuff shouldn't be as powerful frankly, and honestly passive anti-telepathy defenses are probably standard issue for all nations' militaries).

But no lethality.

[Simon_Jester]

That's the most retarded pile of bullshit ever. Psykers can do all sorts of things like pick up people, toss them around, throw things at people, invade people's minds, or burn their minds out; but nobody in this universe has gone: "Can we find a way to first nullify the psyker advantage and then go on the offensive against them?" all the more so if Psykers are rare in your race?

Also, I love the idea of "ha ha ha ha null fields only nullify psyker powers and if of sufficient power, render them unconscious, they will be fine once the null field passes" -- I bet a lot of people who suffer from chronic hearing loss would love it for the world to behave like that. You don't get your hearing back 100% after being exposed to 15 minutes of 100 decibel noise.

No, you don't. On the other hand, your ears aren't already a walking violation of the law of conservation of momentum, which is why the world doesn't behave like that.

See, I know how a radar antenna works, physically, so I know why there's a bidirectional relationship between the radio waves going in or out and the induced currents in the antenna. And why you can burn out an antenna by pointing a much more powerful antenna at it. I can show you the math.

But you're asserting that all psychic abilities work that way based purely on intuition: that a telepath's brain is a special-radio transmitter which can therefore be physically burned out by generating really powerful special-radio signals.

If this were purely an internal thing, maybe that wouldn't be a problem. But it becomes a big problem when you assert your ability to do this to other people's telepaths. It's like asserting an absolute ability to blow up other people's spaceships without fail. You're trying to tell everyone that their stuff works the way you want it to.

See, I've got a country going that would be fairly on board with the idea of anti-psi defense, and you will note that a lot of people put thought into that issue before you were posting in these threads. It's when you go from "defense" on through "strict government control and universal defense" and off into "KILL KILL KILL DEATH TO PSYCHICS!" that there's a problem.

Also, I love the idea of "ha ha ha ha null fields only nullify psyker powers and if of sufficient power, render them unconscious, they will be fine once the null field passes"

As for active anti-psi fields knocking psychics unconscious... there's really nothing stopping someone from killing them at that point. Or, hell, leaving the field on until they die of thirst. I'd say it's pretty damn effective- "nonlethal" is not the same as "ineffective." All that does is make active anti-psi ineffective as a weapon of assassination- even there, it's a fairly effective weapon if you catch the subject alone.

I mean, having a psychic secret agent sneak into your territory and fall unconscious the minute they cross the red line on the floor in the spaceport is a pretty effective way to catch him, I'd think.

And head burn out amongst teeps exposed to blitzschlag generators would not be much of an issue -- because after a point, the teep would stop advancing towards the BFG; because the noise in their head would get to a point where they say "hey you know, fuck this" -- keeping them out of secure areas; because they value their lives more than whatever piece of information they needed to grab in Shepistani Military HQ.

Something similar happens even if the generator only fucks with their mind. At some point the disorientation, hairy purple spiders, and psychosomatic headaches are messing with them so much that they just sit down and wait for the bad trip to go away... only it doesn't, not if they don't leave the area.

And don't tell me you don't like the idea of the psychic agent sent to mindrip your empire's secrets being captured wandering around the streets of downtown acting like he's on a bad acid trip.

And as a side bonus; extended exposure to BFGs would tend to burn out the Psyker section of the brain -- in the same way being exposed to loud noise continuously deafens people.

Or in the same way that being exposed to strong flavors continuously makes them lose the sense of taste... oh, right, it doesn't.

[Simon_Jester]

You know, I don't mind that quite as much. It gives you the powerful anti-ESP defense you want and it's not irrevocably permanent, nor quite as likely to be abused (your smaller-scale stuff shouldn't be as powerful frankly, and honestly passive anti-telepathy defenses are probably standard issue for all nations' militaries).

But no lethality.

That's also compatible with my "active anti-psi creates only psychosomatic symptoms." Spend enough time dizzy and hallucinating from being too close to a powerful active anti-psi field, and the mental trauma may permanently interfere with psychic abilities.

It's the logical extension of anti-psonic fields, you realize. If putting x energy through this field makes psykers get headaches, what happens when we boost the power of the field?

What I'd say happens? Disorientation, nausea, really bad headaches, hallucinations, unconsciousness. It stops there, because you can't use your psychic powers while unconscious, and thus aren't receiving either.

snip

Or like other folks without psychers but with a healthy paranoia your system for dealing with psionic agents sent into your nation could just rely on say...shooting them in the head or something similar?

This. More on that later. If you have a system that both neutralizes and identifies psychics, you don't need a HEAD ASPLODE! weapon to deal with them. After all, if you really want a psychic's head to explode, you can always wire it for demolition after the psychic falls over in the street.

This also has the side effect of not causing babies to spontaneously explode, which is good. And on top of that it makes it a lot easier for your own nation to have psychics it can use offensively- you're not forced to turn off your active psi denial whenever they're in the vicinity because worst case they wake up remembering some really wacked out hallucinations.

Or like other folks without psychers but with a healthy paranoia your system for dealing with psionic agents sent into your nation could just rely on say...shooting them in the head or something similar?

How's that going to work when the captured psonic agent mentally suggests to Shepistani Bureau Agent Scully that she really ought to shoot Agent Mulder in the head, and then shoot herself (after releasing the restraints on the agent of course)?

That's what the null field is for.

The only way that's going to work is if Scully and Mulder were dumbass enough to grab the unconscious psychic, drag them out of the radius of effect of the anti-psychic field, and then execute them. In which case they deserved to get killed.

Being able to apprehend and or shoot psykers in the head only works if you have a anti psyker field that prevents such mental suggestions by the enemy psyker. Otherwise, it's too easy for the psyker to game their way through a dragnet.

Which you do. Null fields, remember?

[Steve]

Seriously, Shep, what I've said and what Simon has gives you everything you want in terms of anti-ESPer defenses. You are arguing for the sake of arguing, it seems.

[MKSheppard]

You'll notice I haven't banned actual anti-ESP capabilities, I've banned your "insta-kill" ones. There's a distinction.

So are you going to ban the higher end ESP capabilities as well?

Hmm. I thought not.

[MKSheppard]

I could expect you'll have some significant problems with psyker political movements, terrorists and similar folks, though, because people generally don't appreciate being shot in the streets

There is the whole "homeland reduced to blasted ruin by race of powerful psykers 400 years before; and then a brutal century long war against said psykers" going for the Shepistani Federation; so I don't think we'd have a psyker political movement.

[Simon_Jester]

How high end is high end?

Does high end mean "A god am I?" Because you're not going to see 40k style psychics poking around your country.

Or does high end mean "technology can't duplicate this?" What does a telepath do that's so much of a threat, anyway? You've already got intense passive and active anti-psi making it freaking impossible for psychics to operate anywhere near your military and government installations, ships, field formations, and metropolitan areas.

Why do you so desperately desire the power to make heads explode without benefit of explosives?

[Steve]

You'll notice I haven't banned actual anti-ESP capabilities, I've banned your "insta-kill" ones. There's a distinction.

So are you going to ban the higher end ESP capabilities as well?

Hmm. I thought not.

You mean like I already did?!

[MKSheppard]

How high end is high end?

Powerful enough to plant mental suggestiosn that override a person's self-preservation impulses, powerful enough to mind control them ala X-COM/Joruus Cbaoth in Zahn Trilogy, powerful enough to toss something a bit heavier than a spork at you; etc.

Why do you so desperately desire the power to make heads explode without benefit of explosives?

Because I'm following through active anti-psi tech to it's logical conclusion. If we can give them headaches with such a low level application of power; what happens if we increase the power level?

[Steve]

Powerful enough to plant mental suggestiosn that override a person's self-preservation impulses, powerful enough to mind control them ala X-COM/Joruus Cbaoth in Zahn Trilogy, powerful enough to toss something a bit heavier than a spork at you; etc.

For the first item, I was operating under the conclusion that only the more powerful ESPers could do something like that, and not without effort.

For the second, much the same, maybe a bit lower in curve, though lower-than-curve ESPers would be generally incapable of "mind-controlling" anything more developed than a pre-adolescent.

The final? I was thinking telekinetic manipulation of anything more than, say, a rifle or light-to-medium weight machine gun is only available for higher-end ESPers. Nobody will be picking up tanks willy-nilly with their minds (maybe the Byzantine Emperor of Fin's, but again, I highly doubt he's going to be doing espionage ops on Shepistan).

[Siege]

Because I'm following through active anti-psi tech to it's logical conclusion. If we can give them headaches with such a low level application of power; what happens if we increase the power level?

Only if we assume your bizarre equivocation of metafaculties with radio waves holds, which as people have tried to point out to you is by no means required. I get that you really, really want this to be true but my psionics for example run on weird metaphysical principles that have precisely zero to do with radio waves or anything of the sort. I'll acknowledge the existence of 'psi nullifier' fields that interefere with a psions' ability to his his metafaculties but I frankly refuse to go any further than that, an in fact fully intend for my psions to go "oh hey, a white noise generator, better flip the off switch on my telepathy here" and be totally fine whilst walking through the interference.

Anyone want to conceive of minor states for minor story purposes?

It'd be pretty sweet if you could add a faction of renegade Apexai to sector W-27.

[Grif]

Aw shucks, now donuts are biological weapons designed to incapacitate Bragulans. I wonder what would happen if someone launched a WMDs full of tasty donuts over a Bragulan world.

[MKSheppard]

Only if we assume your bizarre equivocation of metafaculties with radio waves holds, which as people have tried to point out to you is by no means required.

I believe you fucking missed my goddamn point -- sensors or communication devices of any kind, whether they operate on visual light, sound waves (vibration), electromagnetic energy (radio/radar), infrared light, magic psionic energy, have a set limit on the amount of energy of whatever type (visual light/sound waves/EM energy/magic psionic energy) they can receive before permanent damage of the sensor occurs.

I'll acknowledge the existence of 'psi nullifier' fields that interefere with a psions' ability to his his metafaculties but I frankly refuse to go any further than that, an in fact fully intend for my psions to go "oh hey, a white noise generator, better flip the off switch on my telepathy here" and be totally fine whilst walking through the interference.

Aaaaaand....this is why I deliberately set my anti teep generators power output on "setting 11 - burn people's brains out" instead of "setting 2 - give them headaches".

Because I knew that someone was going to try to say "but my teep can put up with the white noise and really really really concentrate and focus enough of his power to punch through the interference to turn off the source of the interference."

So the best way of defeating that gamey trick was through sheer raw power.

Also, I like how you imagine that people will be able to fully turn off one of their major senses; and walk through a massive white noise field assaulting that sense with no ill effect. Even if people were able to turn off their hearing while walking through a rock concert -- their ears would still end up being permanently damaged from all the sonic noise.

[Siege]

I believe you fucking missed my goddamn point -- sensors or communication devices of any kind, whether they operate on visual light, sound waves (vibration), electromagnetic energy (radio/radar), infrared light, magic psionic energy, have a set limit on the amount of energy of whatever type (visual light/sound waves/EM energy/magic psionic energy) they can receive before permanent damage of the sensor occurs.

I believe you fucking missed my goddamn point -- my psions don't radiate anything of any kind. They will something to happen, and the universe conforms to their demands, pretty much because the Cosmic Id wants to.

There's no bloody radiation of any kind involved. I'll roll with the null field silliness because I'm aware I'm not operating in a vacuum but beyond that you (and everbody else) can pretty much take your anti-psi nonsense and shove it.

[Simon_Jester]

Me, I've got my own ideas on how to deal with this.

[Shroom Man 777]

Aw shucks, now donuts are biological weapons designed to incapacitate Bragulans. I wonder what would happen if someone launched a WMDs full of tasty donuts over a Bragulan world.

The Sovereignty has other far more insidious food products available.

Siege