Battletech Clan Invasion of UC Gundam Earth

[CSJM]

Mechwarrior? Battletech was originally a tabletop TBS. Within tabletop rules, 'mechs are capable of many things that were never quite represented in either Mechwarrior or Mechcommander series. With a proper ruleset, many weapons no longer have a fixed maximum range, instead opting for increasingly devastating penalties as the firing range increases.

Off topic, I once had a funny occurence when I played a practice match in MegaMek. I had a Battlemaster, and was jumped by an Elemental, a lone survivor from a point I earlier decimated. One possible way to get rid of an Elemental is to brush it off with the mech's arms, which I tried to do. The result was best described as a "critical miss" - I ended up short one Battlemaster, standing out in the field with its pilot crushed, the mech's right fist embedded in its face. Fun times.

[Stark]

Nobody cares about useless mech anecdotes in a vs.

What weapons does a Zaku have? I imagine pre-OYW they don't have any of the insane later weapons. Maybe mech armour will be effective against it.

[Balrog]

When someone asks you what something is, pointing into the distance is not an answer.

Imagine I don't read Battletech fluff for a moment. How does your answer help me?

Juubi already got this, but you can read here about the Clan invasion and the units involved. The pages for each Clan also go into some detail about the composition of their forces. As for what the Zakus are armed with, I believe they were using the 120mm cannons at this point, the energy stuff came later. And they also had the nuclear bazookas, though I don't recall how many Zakus had those prior to the treaty banning WMDs.

Martiya, are those numbers from Gihren's Greed considered reliable? IIRC the Feddies lost about 3/4 of their total fleet strength at Loum; that would give them 64 Magellans, 190 Salamis, 112 Columbus and 157 missile frigates.

[lord Martiya]

Nobody cares about useless mech anecdotes in a vs.

What weapons does a Zaku have? I imagine pre-OYW they don't have any of the insane later weapons. Maybe mech armour will be effective against it.

Zaku and Zaku II usually carried the following weapons: heat hawk (essentially a mecha-sized axe using heat to cut through enemy armor. Can cut lunar titanium (the material of Gundam near-indestructible armor); 120mm machine cannon; 280mm bazooka (at this point in time, it's issued to attack spaceships with nukes. Can fire AP rockets with conventional warheads easily capable to pierce the Gundam's armor). This is the usual weaponry, but some elites may have customized weapons (according to the Origins manga, one of the Three Black Stars had his Zaku II High Mobility Type armed with a GIANT rifle, and used it against the Federation flagship at Loum), and some rare Zaku II variants have special weapons (one variant had some kind of missiles, and the Newtype prototypes carried mind controlled detachable cannons).

Martiya, are those numbers from Gihren's Greed considered reliable? IIRC the Feddies lost about 3/4 of their total fleet strength at Loum; that would give them 64 Magellans, 190 Salamis, 112 Columbus and 157 missile frigates.

As I said, numbers varies according to the source (the Entertainement Bible gives the EFSF ships at Loum as 12 Magellans, 61 Salamis and 201 ships of other types, while the manga Origins states Tianem's vanguard force as 15 Magellans, 30 Salamis, 1 Columbus and 1 missile frigate and Revil's (commander-in-chief) main force as roughly double of this (Origins numbers come from Zeon's intelligence, so they may not be reliable even in-universe)). Gihren's Greed numbers are the ones usually quoted, but I don't know if Tomino or the productors ever gave official numbers.
On the Federation total force, one must remember that the EFSF fleet at Loum was NOT completely destroyed: after Revil capture and the immense losses provoked by the MS, his second in command Cunningham ordered a full retreat and sacrificed his ship and life to cover the retreating forces. Origins gives no numbers on Federation losses, and only shows that Tianem's fleet was almost intact, and I have no figures from the Entertainement Bible while Gihren's Greed gives the losses as 36 Magellans destroyed, 139 Salamis destroyed, 114 missile frigates destroyed or heavily damaged and presumibly scrapped and 82 Columbus destroyed with two others moderatly damaged, giving us total numbers of 48 Magellans, 185 Salamis, 152 missile frigates and 109 Columbus.

[Ford Prefect]

What weapons does a Zaku have? I imagine pre-OYW they don't have any of the insane later weapons. Maybe mech armour will be effective against it.

Pre-One Year War means there's no Antarctic Treaty, so everyone and his dog has access to nuclear bazookas.

[Batman]

Ouch.

[Stark]

Pre-One Year War means there's no Antarctic Treaty, so everyone and his dog has access to nuclear bazookas.

HAHAHAHA.

I figured without all the megabeambladeguncannonwingframe blasters maybe they'd be shorthanded.

OBVIOUSLY NOT.

[Stark]

[quote="lord Martyia"][/quote]So... their regular machinegun thing is like an AC/10 and their bazooka (if non-nuclear) is AC/20 range? And they have nukes?

Mechwarrior is totally fucked, even on the ground, EVEN BY ZAKUS.

Wow, Mechwarrior SUCKS.

[Balrog]

It's not a total blow out, the nuclear bazookas are usually only used against large targets like warships, and unless I'm horribly mistaken Battletech WarShips can more easily survive tactical nukes than Gundam ships can. They're also faster and better armed than their Gundam counterparts, with the addition of DropShips and AeroSpace fighters as support.

Besides, if they start using nukes, than so do the Clans, and they at least don't have to worry about civilian targets being wiped out.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's not a total blow out, the nuclear bazookas are usually only used against large targets like warships, and unless I'm horribly mistaken Battletech WarShips can more easily survive tactical nukes than Gundam ships can. They're also faster and better armed than their Gundam counterparts, with the addition of DropShips and AeroSpace fighters as support.

Besides, if they start using nukes, than so do the Clans, and they at least don't have to worry about civilian targets being wiped out.

The Clans don't have that many warships and their doctrine is for limited duels between large warships. WMD attacks are completely outside their way of waging war, so while they will adapt to the use of such weapons they certainly aren't going to lead with nuke spam (Turtle Bay was an aberration, with the most notoriously brutal Clan glassing a rebellious civilian target and horrifying their fellow Clans. This led to the other Clans bidding away their warships in order to prevent any future actions. It's not at all an example of the normal way of Clans engaging military targets). The four invading Clans do have large fleet, by Clan standards, but that's still less than two hundred ships combined. As for being faster, the warships limited to single digit G acceleration (I have no idea about Gundam speed) so that may not be the case.

[Cykeisme]

I think Battletech 'mechs are just too hopelessly outclassed (by even modern tech) due to the insistence of the franchise to canonically portray the actual universe using horrible in-game stats.. laughable ranges, ablative armor, etc.
Anyway, space combat will likely not involve the 'mechs at all.

Perhaps a comparison of naval space battleship weapon yield is in order?

[Ford Prefect]

It's not a total blow out, the nuclear bazookas are usually only used against large targets like warships

And what is the invasion fleet made up of, again? Oh, yeah, large warships. Of course, the idea that if the Clans get on the ground they wouldn't use nuclear weapons is hilarious. They halved the entire Earth Sphere's population in one week, remember?

[Imperial Overlord]

I think Battletech 'mechs are just too hopelessly outclassed (by even modern tech) due to the insistence of the franchise to canonically portray the actual universe using horrible in-game stats.. laughable ranges, ablative armor, etc.
Anyway, space combat will likely not involve the 'mechs at all.

Perhaps a comparison of naval space battleship weapon yield is in order

The issues with ranges and machine guns chewing up the armour was retconned as game mechanics and should be treated as such, but Btech is still very low powered. They don't have weapons more powerful than nukes, they almost never use nukes, and the Clans are even more reluctant than most Btech forces to use WMDs. They certainly don't have nuclear armed mechs and they're invasion forces are configured for a quality over quantity limited engagements. I know almost nothing about Gundam forces, but if they have hundreds of ships, nukes, and at least mediocre antifighter defences then the Clanners are going to get butchered in space.

[Balrog]

The Clans don't have that many warships and their doctrine is for limited duels between large warships. WMD attacks are completely outside their way of waging war, so while they will adapt to the use of such weapons they certainly aren't going to lead with nuke spam (Turtle Bay was an aberration, with the most notoriously brutal Clan glassing a rebellious civilian target and horrifying their fellow Clans. This led to the other Clans bidding away their warships in order to prevent any future actions. It's not at all an example of the normal way of Clans engaging military targets). The four invading Clans do have large fleet, by Clan standards, but that's still less than two hundred ships combined. As for being faster, the warships limited to single digit G acceleration (I have no idea about Gundam speed) so that may not be the case.

However, they did adapt their space-fighting tactics to reflect reality after meeting IS forces (i.e. enemy Warships are fair game for any and everyone per BattleSpace) and they'll do the same with their WMDs. I never said they'd start out flinging nukes, but they'll have far more ways to hurt the Gundam forces (factories, bases, civilian targets) than they can respond in kind, considering the invaders' own strategic assets and reserve Clans lie outside Gundam's reach.

Perhaps a comparison of naval space battleship weapon yield is in order?

I believe it was in one of the recent books concerning the Jihad which introduced new nuke rules, including the stat that one point of Capital weapon damage is equivalent to a half-kiloton bomb, but I can't confirm that right now. That would make most of their weapons the equivalent of single-digit kilotons at minimum. Gundam ships don't come close considering the Jormungand, the giant super-gun with engines that can one-shot other ships, could only put out 500 TJ, and they've died to far less damaging weapons.

And what is the invasion fleet made up of, again? Oh, yeah, large warships. Of course, the idea that if the Clans get on the ground they wouldn't use nuclear weapons is hilarious. They halved the entire Earth Sphere's population in one week, remember?

Never said they wouldn't use them on the ground, just that not every Zaku was packing one even when there was no ban. The Federation at least would rather Earth not get irradiated by nuke-spam, and chances are they probably would try for a similar agreement as the Antarctic Treaty.

[Ford Prefect]

Never said they wouldn't use them on the ground, just that not every Zaku was packing one even when there was no ban. The Federation at least would rather Earth not get irradiated by nuke-spam, and chances are they probably would try for a similar agreement as the Antarctic Treaty.

No, not every Zaku, just most of them. And, no, the chances are that they would not make such a treaty with the Clans - they made the treaty only after they realised that if they kept going as they were, they'd kill everyone living on Earth and in its orbit in the next couple of weeks. The Clans have two thousands robots, four thousand fighters and sixty thousand infantry. They will all be dead before it's an issue.

I believe it was in one of the recent books concerning the Jihad which introduced new nuke rules, including the stat that one point of Capital weapon damage is equivalent to a half-kiloton bomb, but I can't confirm that right now. That would make most of their weapons the equivalent of single-digit kilotons at minimum. Gundam ships don't come close considering the Jormungand, the giant super-gun with engines that can one-shot other ships, could only put out 500 TJ, and they've died to far less damaging weapons.

How exactly do you figure that Gundam doesn't come close? 500TJ is like 120 kilotons. Stuff like the Apsalus and Big Zam actually carry multi-megaton main guns, though they wouldn't figure into such an early time period. This is setting aside the fact that the Clans have frankly pitiful range, and that the Earth Sphere forces have shockingly superior ECM.

[SAMAS]

I think Battletech 'mechs are just too hopelessly outclassed (by even modern tech) due to the insistence of the franchise to canonically portray the actual universe using horrible in-game stats.. laughable ranges, ablative armor, etc.
Anyway, space combat will likely not involve the 'mechs at all.

Perhaps a comparison of naval space battleship weapon yield is in order

The issues with ranges and machine guns chewing up the armour was retconned as game mechanics and should be treated as such,

The Piranha from TRO 3028 would beg to differ.

[Nephtys]

I think Battletech 'mechs are just too hopelessly outclassed (by even modern tech) due to the insistence of the franchise to canonically portray the actual universe using horrible in-game stats.. laughable ranges, ablative armor, etc.
Anyway, space combat will likely not involve the 'mechs at all.

Perhaps a comparison of naval space battleship weapon yield is in order

The issues with ranges and machine guns chewing up the armour was retconned as game mechanics and should be treated as such,

The Piranha from TRO 3028 would beg to differ.

While I'm a big fan of the amusing antics a Piranha can perform in that game, it's actually an anti-infantry platform.

The Piranha, like the Diamond Shark Clan that uses it, is something of an enigma. Though this light 'Mech offers superior speed and maneuverability, the Piranha is armed with a weapon load more suited to an attack unit than a recon unit. Also, this 'Mech would seem to operate at peak efficiency when using the "pack" tactics common to the Inner Sphere, as its name implies, but none have been sighted attacking in such a way. Questions about this 'Mech may never be resolved, because the last of these 'Mechs disappeared along with the rest of Clan Diamond Shark's military after the Battle of Tukayyid.

Capabilities
As the Piranha has rarely been seen in combat, observers can only guess at its true capabilities. A large XL engine and powerful legs give the Piranha an astounding running speed, allowing it to close quickly with the enemy and bring its twelve heavy machine guns to bear. Such a large array of machine guns can be deadly to units twice the Piranha's size, especially if the small 'Mech can run behind the enemy. At short range, a Piranha can chew through any opponent's back armor almost instantly. The machine guns are also extremely potent antipersonnel weapons. Because the Clans rarely use unarmored infantry, it is safe to assume the Piranha was created in direct response to battles with Inner Sphere forces.

Three extended range lasers, one small and two medium, supplement the Piranha's machine guns. Because the 'Mech lacks the heat sinks to use them effectively, it is likely most pilots use these energy weapons only if they run out of ammunition -- a rare occurrence, because the Piranha is always stationed near ample supply depots. If the pilot is willing to risk a heat spike by firing all three lasers simultaneously, the 'Mech can deliver firepower greater than that offered by most medium 'Mechs.

Deployment
A few Stars of Piranhas saw action in the Tukayyid campaign, acting as combination striker/recon units attached to Omega Galaxy. The Piranhas would rush ahead of the main unit, flushing out hidden troops by firing machine guns into the trees and undergrowth, then herding them into the waiting arms of the main attack force. They also proved quite effective as anti-infantry 'Mechs, destroying entire companies of troops in seconds.

An uncritical reading could go 'OH LOOK IT CAN CHEW THROUGH ANY ARMOR', but these TROs are really all like that in silliness. There's comments about 'Iron' being used as armor in some older sources, which is nonsensical. As well as other very literal game mechanics translations of this or that. This is also notable since TROs are all in-universe documents from ComStar, who aren't exactly the most sensible phone company in the world either. There's a bit of confusion in the text on what exactly this mech is even used for, as would be expected from a third party source.

If you want to rationalize it, the bullets can possibly ding some hard to armor bit, like a joint, sensor, or heat sink. That's of course, ignoring the Clan ER Lasers. I suppose one could also read it as 'An M1 Tank's machine guns are very deadly. The tank can destroy any enemy vehicle it gets in it's sights'. Well sure. This is true. It's just the main armament, not the machine guns doing it. You could say the very same for the Piranha, since the Clan lasers are equivalent to much heavier IS weaponry.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Piranha from TRO 3028 would beg to differ.

No, it doesn't. The retcon was clarified in 4th edition Mechwarrior, which was published later.


The point is taken about being able to hammer Gundam's infrastructure. FTL is a huge strategic advantage, even if the Clan supply line is more than a year long. Their society is based around dueling conventions and limited warfare conventions that emphasize a warrior's individual prowess and the fitness of his or her genetic legacy and they consider other forms of warfare dishonourable. Even warship combats are highly limited in the amount of damage the vessels sustain. WMDs aren't part of their military doctrine and they won't be bringing many, if any, with them.

It seems to be really an issue of what happens after Gundam crushes the invading Clan fleet. It'll certainly take the Clanners a while to put another one together. Does the Gundam verse have any way of pursuing them to their home worlds? The Clanners were quite careful with nav data, but any surviving non military personnel will cooperate with their new masters.

[Stark]

Who cares? Obviously the galaxy-spanning civilisation will win. It's just hilarious how terrible BT forces are.

[Imperial Overlord]

Who cares? Obviously the galaxy-spanning civilisation will win. It's just hilarious how terrible BT forces are.

Well, that's the thing. The Clans inhabit a couple dozen worlds total and, in your immortal words, are pretty terrible. The BTech FTL is something that could be theorized and then built with last 21st Century technology and the Clanners noncombatants, including their technicians, will become very cooperative after they surrender. Its not inconceivable for Gundam to be able to reverse engineer their FTL if they capture enough vessels somewhat intact.

[Stark]

Oh, I had no idea the BT techbase was so low. I thought they were 31st century guys?

[Nephtys]

Oh, I had no idea the BT techbase was so low. I thought they were 31st century guys?

They're actually 27th century guys, who've had a few setbacks over the years. And the Clans are in a very seperate case though. They just happened to have colonized a cluster of really awful planets, which is partly why they have the really screwball culture. Their only saving grace really was that they were able to preserve and advance the 2700s techbase, while the other IS powers carpet-nuked each other repeatedly for 300 years.

IIRC their early FTL Experiments took place in the 2200s, with colonization occuring afterwards.

[Imperial Overlord]

The theoretical work for the FTL was done much earlier and the drive could have been built with (in universe) late 21st century tech (they had fusion by then). There wasn't big time government funding to build the drive until 2103.

[Ford Prefect]

FTL is a huge strategic advantage, even if the Clan supply line is more than a year long.

I wouldn't really really call it a huge strategic advantage, because you can't really use it for in-system travel*, and the Earth Federation and Principality of Zeon have practically everything that matters in Earth orbit. This isn't like the earlier thread which pitted Star Trek: Enterprise, where free Warp travel allowed for United Earth to make up for its disadvantage in ... everything. They will have to make the journey from Jump Point to earth STL, which is, what, nine or ten days? They can't just pop up in the middle of strategically vital locations, ripple off a lightning attack and then jump out. I suppose they could try launching an attack on the Jupiter Energy Fleets, but we honestly don't know enough about what's in Jupiter orbit, or how well armed they are, at this point in the UC timeline.

I mean, really, the entire populations of these clans are exceedingly tiny. Jade Falcon has a hundred million total, Wolf has a hundred million total, Ghost Bear has twenty five million and so on. The Earth Sphere superpowers have killed billions of people in a day, and the Earth Federation sustained 5.8 billion casulties. The Zekes themselves had over a hundred and forty million men under arms. The top aces on both sides have hundreds of kills to their names. Only real advantage the Clans have here is that if they run away, they can't be followed.

*I know there are pirate points, but I seriously doubt their utility given how it would take upwards of 180 hours to recharge.

[SAMAS]

The Piranha, like the Diamond Shark Clan that uses it, is something of an enigma. Though this light 'Mech offers superior speed and maneuverability, the Piranha is armed with a weapon load more suited to an attack unit than a recon unit. Also, this 'Mech would seem to operate at peak efficiency when using the "pack" tactics common to the Inner Sphere, as its name implies, but none have been sighted attacking in such a way. Questions about this 'Mech may never be resolved, because the last of these 'Mechs disappeared along with the rest of Clan Diamond Shark's military after the Battle of Tukayyid.

Capabilities
As the Piranha has rarely been seen in combat, observers can only guess at its true capabilities. A large XL engine and powerful legs give the Piranha an astounding running speed, allowing it to close quickly with the enemy and bring its twelve heavy machine guns to bear. Such a large array of machine guns can be deadly to units twice the Piranha's size, especially if the small 'Mech can run behind the enemy. At short range, a Piranha can chew through any opponent's back armor almost instantly. The machine guns are also extremely potent antipersonnel weapons. Because the Clans rarely use unarmored infantry, it is safe to assume the Piranha was created in direct response to battles with Inner Sphere forces.

Three extended range lasers, one small and two medium, supplement the Piranha's machine guns. Because the 'Mech lacks the heat sinks to use them effectively, it is likely most pilots use these energy weapons only if they run out of ammunition -- a rare occurrence, because the Piranha is always stationed near ample supply depots. If the pilot is willing to risk a heat spike by firing all three lasers simultaneously, the 'Mech can deliver firepower greater than that offered by most medium 'Mechs.

Deployment
A few Stars of Piranhas saw action in the Tukayyid campaign, acting as combination striker/recon units attached to Omega Galaxy. The Piranhas would rush ahead of the main unit, flushing out hidden troops by firing machine guns into the trees and undergrowth, then herding them into the waiting arms of the main attack force. They also proved quite effective as anti-infantry 'Mechs, destroying entire companies of troops in seconds.

An uncritical reading could go 'OH LOOK IT CAN CHEW THROUGH ANY ARMOR', but these TROs are really all like that in silliness. There's comments about 'Iron' being used as armor in some older sources, which is nonsensical.

Hey, the "Ferro" in Ferro-Fibrous has to come from somewhere, right?

As well as other very literal game mechanics translations of this or that. This is also notable since TROs are all in-universe documents from ComStar, who aren't exactly the most sensible phone company in the world either. There's a bit of confusion in the text on what exactly this mech is even used for, as would be expected from a third party source.

Yes, but when they say "Twelve Heavy Machineguns are a threat to Mechs weighing sixty tons", that's not guessing at it's deployment.

(It should be noted that when BattleTech talks about Mech-/Vehicle-/Battle Armor-scale machineguns, they're talking closer to 20mm Vulcan guns or at least the minigun, not something like an M2 Browning.)

If you want to rationalize it, the bullets can possibly ding some hard to armor bit, like a joint, sensor, or heat sink. That's of course, ignoring the Clan ER Lasers. I suppose one could also read it as 'An M1 Tank's machine guns are very deadly. The tank can destroy any enemy vehicle it gets in it's sights'. Well sure. This is true. It's just the main armament, not the machine guns doing it. You could say the very same for the Piranha, since the Clan lasers are equivalent to much heavier IS weaponry.

I would dispute this, as it specifically singles out the heavy machine guns as being deadly to opponents twice the mech's size, before even mentioning the lasers. Same with the Armor-chewing line.

Also, the line about risking heat buildup to have "firepower greater than that offered by most medium 'Mechs." Even accounting for the increased firepower of Clan ER lasers, two mediums and a small alone don't add up to that. Two ER Mediums, an ER Small, and a dozen 20-30mm gatlings do.

The Piranha from TRO 3028 would beg to differ.

No, it doesn't. The retcon was clarified in 4th edition Mechwarrior, which was published later

Could you elaborate on that?