The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[darksoul]

Just a word on the cosmology (as I understand it), there's no need for us to go to Universe C for Yahweh's enemies, any other of the bubble worlds in U-B would do just fine. Hell and Heaven are just two of the bubbles in the foam that makes up Universe B, while U-A is a crossroads for them because it's so easy to open portals from B to A, and from A to B, but so hard to open them from B to B.

U-C from what we've seen has such radically different physical laws that neither we nor the U-B denizens can interact with it in any meaningful way, making it an unlikely source for the Devils that Yahweh fought.

Unless, of course, I'm missing or have forgotten some part of the explanation (entirely possible - elucidate me if I have).

no, you haven't. we are just keeping all options open here.

[Razor One]

Socially speaking, technology might have been possible in some of the other universes.

given that nothing is known in those other universes, yes, of course it's possible. Given enough worlds is not only possible, but statistically probable, etc.

What's more interesting, which of the known pantheons is more likely to have develop some technology?

Just taking a wild stab in the dark here, but based on my albeit limited knowledge, the Shinto pantheon might be likely to have developed technology in some form.

Even so, I'd wager that is likely to have developed by way of magical thinking. "The Mystery of Motion" as opposed to the "Laws of Motion", if you will. They may be able to experimentally probe the limits of their local bubble but not feel inclined to ask too deeply once they have an answer that works. They might work out certain aspects of Newtonian physics but completely miss out on the more esoteric subjects such as relativity, atomic structure and so on.

Just some idle thoughts

[Nematocyst]

Angels do have bows and arrows.

"Out, across the battlefield, he [Dripankeothorofenex] saw an angel, a large one, possibly even an Ophanim, rising over the ridgeline, his wings carrying him up as he fired arrows from the bow in his hands." Pantheocide, Chapter 68

[darksoul]

Angels do have bows and arrows.

"Out, across the battlefield, he [Dripankeothorofenex] saw an angel, a large one, possibly even an Ophanim, rising over the ridgeline, his wings carrying him up as he fired arrows from the bow in his hands." Pantheocide, Chapter 68

indeed. so, as said before, outclassed completely by modern technology.

[LadyTevar]

Angels do have bows and arrows.

"Out, across the battlefield, he [Dripankeothorofenex] saw an angel, a large one, possibly even an Ophanim, rising over the ridgeline, his wings carrying him up as he fired arrows from the bow in his hands." Pantheocide, Chapter 68

indeed. so, as said before, outclassed completely by modern technology.

Well... we saw in Avatar what an arrow the size of a javelin can do to technology.
Ophanim and higher are as large as or larger than the Na'vi, so their arrows and bows would be sized up as well. A bow with a hundred-pound pull in a trained human hand can punch through steel, as the Frenchmen learned the hard way. Now size that up to an arrow close to 2m long, with an angel that can probably pull two or three hundred pound bow without the help of a breakdown wheel.
An arrow fired from a bow with that amount of strength behind it should go through a Bradley's windshield with no problems. If the Bradley had the same armoring as the ones currently in Iraq and Afganistan, the arrow may go through the door as well. (it's pretty cheap armor, iirc)

However, bringing a bow and arrows to a gunfight leaves you up the creek when it comes to range and refire rate. The angel's still fucked.

[Mr Bean]

Now size that up to an arrow close to 2m long, with an angel that can probably pull two or three hundred pound bow without the help of a breakdown wheel.
An arrow fired from a bow with that amount of strength behind it should go through a Bradley's windshield with no problems. If the Bradley had the same armoring as the ones currently in Iraq and Afganistan, the arrow may go through the door as well. (it's pretty cheap armor, iirc)

Bradley's windshield?


Windshield?

Or did you mean a Humvee's windshield?

Because those have windshields instead of vision slits and periscopes.

[Gil Hamilton]

Well... we saw in Avatar what an arrow the size of a javelin can do to technology.
Ophanim and higher are as large as or larger than the Na'vi, so their arrows and bows would be sized up as well. A bow with a hundred-pound pull in a trained human hand can punch through steel, as the Frenchmen learned the hard way. Now size that up to an arrow close to 2m long, with an angel that can probably pull two or three hundred pound bow without the help of a breakdown wheel.
An arrow fired from a bow with that amount of strength behind it should go through a Bradley's windshield with no problems. If the Bradley had the same armoring as the ones currently in Iraq and Afganistan, the arrow may go through the door as well. (it's pretty cheap armor, iirc)

However, bringing a bow and arrows to a gunfight leaves you up the creek when it comes to range and refire rate. The angel's still fucked.

So, based on Avatar, those bows and arrows should only work selectively based on whether that particular scene is dramatically trying to show the Na'vi helpless against the human war machine or triumphantly defeating the humans (as witnessed by one one scene the arrows bouncing uselessly off the cockpits of the human vessels but later going straight through them)?

But seriously, the angels probably have a ferocious draw weight on their bows and can do damage by sheer weight, but the problem is that its not particularly likely that they are going be effective. Beyond a small distance, those bows would be lucky to hit anything, meaning that angels would be restricted to exactly what those English guys did; massed volleys. That's suicide, unfortunately, for the angels.

[darksoul]

Well... we saw in Avatar what an arrow the size of a javelin can do to technology.
Ophanim and higher are as large as or larger than the Na'vi, so their arrows and bows would be sized up as well. A bow with a hundred-pound pull in a trained human hand can punch through steel, as the Frenchmen learned the hard way. Now size that up to an arrow close to 2m long, with an angel that can probably pull two or three hundred pound bow without the help of a breakdown wheel.
An arrow fired from a bow with that amount of strength behind it should go through a Bradley's windshield with no problems. If the Bradley had the same armoring as the ones currently in Iraq and Afganistan, the arrow may go through the door as well. (it's pretty cheap armor, iirc)

However, bringing a bow and arrows to a gunfight leaves you up the creek when it comes to range and refire rate. The angel's still fucked.

So, based on Avatar, those bows and arrows should only work selectively based on whether that particular scene is dramatically trying to show the Na'vi helpless against the human war machine or triumphantly defeating the humans (as witnessed by one one scene the arrows bouncing uselessly off the cockpits of the human vessels but later going straight through them)?

But seriously, the angels probably have a ferocious draw weight on their bows and can do damage by sheer weight, but the problem is that its not particularly likely that they are going be effective. Beyond a small distance, those bows would be lucky to hit anything, meaning that angels would be restricted to exactly what those English guys did; massed volleys. That's suicide, unfortunately, for the angels.

Not to mention it's tiring. Even if angels are stronger, they are pulling bigger arrows, so they'll tire comparatively equal to humans. So yeah...

[SCRawl]

But seriously, the angels probably have a ferocious draw weight on their bows and can do damage by sheer weight, but the problem is that its not particularly likely that they are going be effective.

Doesn't that imply that the angels will have materials from which to manufacture their bows that will take full advantage of their superior strength? As far as we know they're still basically at bronze age technology -- centuries before something as advanced as the Welsh longbow, never mind a modern example.

[Deebles]

Two more problems with angelic longbows punching through tanks:
1) Arrows can punch through armour, yes, but only from a short distance. Their velocity tails off pretty sharply as they travel.
2) Serious longbowmen had quite specific training that led to oddly unbalanced physiques, with different muscular development, EDIT even skeletal development, in the two different arms - it used to be said that "to train a good longbowman, you had to start with his grandfather". One of the main advantages of early firearms was that they required a lot less training (as in weeks, rather than years). I somehow doubt that Angels, with thousands of years since they were last at war and quite effective natural ranged abilities (trumpeting) would really bother with training seriously in the use of bows.

[MGlBlaze]

Two more problems with angelic longbows punching through tanks:
1) Arrows can punch through armour, yes, but only from a short distance. Their velocity tails off pretty sharply as they travel.
2) Serious longbowmen had quite specific training that led to oddly unbalanced physiques, with very different muscular development in the two different arms - it used to be said that "to train a good longbowman, you had to start with his grandfather". One of the main advantages of early firearms was that they required a lot less training (as in weeks, rather than years). I somehow doubt that Angels, with thousands of years since they were last at war and quite effective natural ranged abilities (trumpeting) would really bother with training seriously in the use of bows.

I'm inclined to agree, honestly. After having gone so long without warfare, I doubt many would be built to use a bow properly. Most of them would likely just stick with the trumpeting.

Also, on the armour thing; I'm not too sure, but I think arrows designed to 'punch through' armour, specifically chainmail, were just very thin arrowheads meant to slip in between the links, not break the mail itself. I'm not so sure about penetrating plate armour, but either way I don't think those arrows are making it through modern tank armour. Lighter stuff maybe, but engagement range strikes me as another big problem if they do use bows. I could be talking out my ass, though.

Something else; this thread seems to have gotten pretty huge.

[Chamale]

Bodkin-point arrows weren't specifically designed to punch through armour, but could go through most types of chain-link. As MGIBlaze said, these arrows relied on sneaking through holes in chainmail, rather than penetrative power. Medieval armies could use huge volleys of arrows, but going through armour was not their primary objective - medieval archers targeted the groups of unarmoured peasants and the less well-armoured men-at-arms that accompanied the well-protected knights.

Medieval platemail resisted arrows and bullets easily. Modern rifle bullets could easily penetrate this armour, while still unable to threaten tanks. If a bullet can't harm a tank, I'm sure that an angelic arrow wouldn't either. Besides, angels probably didn't bother developing sophisticated bows, considering their natural ranged attacks. Angelic bows were likely copied from medieval Earth's designs.

Edit: By the way, how many posts must I make before they stop being moderated automatically?

[usagihunter101]

So, based on Avatar, those bows and arrows should only work selectively based on whether that particular scene is dramatically trying to show the Na'vi helpless against the human war machine or triumphantly defeating the humans (as witnessed by one one scene the arrows bouncing uselessly off the cockpits of the human vessels but later going straight through them)?

At risk of going a bit off-topic, but the smurfs were using gravity and the diving velocity of their banshees to assist them when they were going through windshields during the later battle.

That being said, bows that size could be scary if the angels were pushed into a guerilla conflict, mainly because you have an almost silent weapon that can feasibly fire through light vehicle armor. It would be even scarier if they were able to adapt modern compound bow designs to their size.

'Course, in able to prevent themselves from being killed almost immediately, the angel in question would need to ditch that whole pride thing, and learn to fire only a few arrows and flee, a concept which angels may or may not be able to accept.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, the Angels are so not going to ditch their pride. True, a bow would be powerful, but the average Angel jsut doesn't have access to the techniques that made the English Longbow so deadly, IE how to make it and a supply of strong arrows that will be needed. That's not even counting a major flaw in using bows: the HEA is centered around armored vehicles, which aren't known for being vulnerable to arrows.

[SCRawl]

It also just occurred to me: maybe the angels can "charge" their arrows in the same manner as they charge their melee weapons. I still can't see them penetrating (or even seriously threatening to penetrate) modern armoured vehicles, but they might be a little more effective than just normal materials.

[Simon_Jester]

Doesn't that imply that the angels will have materials from which to manufacture their bows that will take full advantage of their superior strength? As far as we know they're still basically at bronze age technology -- centuries before something as advanced as the Welsh longbow, never mind a modern example.

I'd expect them to; extremely strong timber would help to explain their massive buildings, and it would be of a piece with there other improbably high-grade natural materials (like whatever Wuffles uses for muscle tissue).

Medieval platemail resisted arrows and bullets easily. Modern rifle bullets could easily penetrate this armour, while still unable to threaten tanks. If a bullet can't harm a tank, I'm sure that an angelic arrow wouldn't either. Besides, angels probably didn't bother developing sophisticated bows, considering their natural ranged attacks.

A tank, absolutely not. A light armored vehicle... it's remotely possible, but extremely unlikely.

[SilverHawk]

I hope they resist, because then we can use those B-1s, B-52s and Tu-160s for one thing. Arc Light raids. Hells yes.

[Night_stalker]

Hey, don't forget the AC-130s! Plus, I get the feeling that the Angels are going to really learn why it's ill-advised to provoke humanity, and not be technologocially superior to them.

[darksoul]

Hey, don't forget the AC-130s! Plus, I get the feeling that the Angels are going to really learn why it's ill-advised to provoke humanity, and not be technologocially superior to them.

he, not only technologically. Provoking humanity without being numerically, technologically and intelectually superior all AT ONCE it's likely to be suicide. Humans Are Special, remember?

[Chamale]

Medieval platemail resisted arrows and bullets easily. Modern rifle bullets could easily penetrate this armour, while still unable to threaten tanks. If a bullet can't harm a tank, I'm sure that an angelic arrow wouldn't either. Besides, angels probably didn't bother developing sophisticated bows, considering their natural ranged attacks.

A tank, absolutely not. A light armored vehicle... it's remotely possible, but extremely unlikely.

I think any vehicle light enough to be harmed by angelic arrows could also be harmed more by trumpeting. I'm not sure about what percentage of angels can trumpet, but I get the impression that any angels who could wield Na'vi-type giant bows would be better suited for trumpeting.

[Seggybop]

Yeah, the Angels are so not going to ditch their pride. True, a bow would be powerful, but the average Angel jsut doesn't have access to the techniques that made the English Longbow so deadly, IE how to make it and a supply of strong arrows that will be needed

English longbow is actually a super simple design (tapered D-shaped cross section) that exploited the properties of yew wood (yew sapwood is strong in tension and yew heartwood is strong in compression) to gain the benefits of laminated wood without going through the trouble of actually laminating.

You can also make a comparably powerful bow fairly easily by tapering a hardwood board in only one dimension (rectangular cross-section with fixed thickness by shrinking width) but it's a very inefficient use of material compared to the D shape.

The really complex bows were the oriental composite horsebows, but since the angels don't need to worry about being able to shoot while riding a horse, there wouldn't be any need to attempt making anything so involved.

[not that having cool bows would actually help the angels at all in this scenario]

[Simon_Jester]

I think any vehicle light enough to be harmed by angelic arrows could also be harmed more by trumpeting. I'm not sure about what percentage of angels can trumpet, but I get the impression that any angels who could wield Na'vi-type giant bows would be better suited for trumpeting.

True. If trumpeting rocked a tank, it should be a serious problem for lighter armor, especially from the sides.

[Prezo]

on the charging their arrows one would assume that for that the arrow would need to be at least coated if not completley made out of a conductive material, making an arrow out of iron/steel is prety much out of the question for the angels so they would have to be using copper or bronse which would be prety terrible for pearcing any sort of armor.

and while trumpeting would be a problem its kinda noisy so if it was to be used instead of a bow (which we have already asserted would only be realy usefull in guerilla tactics) so while deadly it would be almost suicide if you were waiting in ambush.

[Erra]

I'd have to imagine that the bigger angels (higher ranks) are much less numerous than their smaller (lower ranked) brethern. So the ones capable of blowing up light armored vehicles with trumpetting and wielding giant na'vi bows are going to be few and far between. And, generally speaking, since they're large and looking like they're in charge, they're the first ones to be blown up anyway, so its all kind of moot.

Not that it matters once SOMEONE decapitates Yahweh and takes over. I suppose having the bigger angels gone would make it easier for a top-down takeover to succeed. I can suddenly imagine the angelic host splintering into many groups once someone kills Yahweh like the Christian church did whenever its leadership changed hands.

[impatrick4life]

You know, some guy here mentioned the AC-130... I must admit, it would be nice for Stuart to throw in a pop-culture nod to The A-Team and have an AC blow up Yahweh, and maybe transmit video footage of it to the White House and have B.O. remark how "it looks just like Call of Duty."

Too bad it's awful dangerous to fly an AC around with the angels and whatnot, but, I wish it was possible.