Feds sue state of Arizona

[Broomstick]

And in some states you don't have to identify yourself to any random officer you run into on the street. Unless you're doing something to warrant police attention. There are still places where, if you're just sitting on a park bench harming no one you can decline to identify yourself without penalty.

True, but the US Constitution has been held to permit states to pass legislation requiring identification in such circumstances. We're talking about the limits of what's constitutionally permissible; not idly musing about the differences between Connecticut and Nevada law.

Sure - identify yourself but normal identity documents don't establish either citizenship or immigration status.

Well, you get thrown into detention, you don't have a means to prove your citizenship - identity isn't necessarialy the same thing - and you sit there until something happens.

Right. Until the police can, through reasonable efforts, determine who you are and what your immigration status is (still not the same thing as citizenship--love the bait-and-switch technique).

Oh - you still have faith the police will be reasonable? How... quaint.

Yes, in some jurisdictions you can trust the police. In some you can't. In many cases which is which is dependent on your ethnicity.

[Broomstick]

And to clarify - something like my driver's license proves my identity - it says jack shit about my citizenship. Legal resident aliens can get valid driver's licenses, it has nothing to do with citizenship. So... unless you carry around your birth certificate (which wouldn't work anyway for anyone born outside the US but still holding citizenship... ironically enough, like John McCain, born in Panama) and your social security card, or a passport, you're fucking screwed if the Phoenix PD decides you're a damn dirty foreign and throws your ass into detention.

Most states require a birth certificate in order to get an ID though, which should theoretically solve that problem.

Only the first time.

I've changed my state of residency twice since learning to drive. In both instances all I had to show was a valid driver's license from my former state. I haven't had to show a birth certificate to renew my driver's license since... um... 1981? 1982? Somewhere around there. Early 80's. That was... 30 years ago.

With that in mind, it could be trivially easy for a formerly legal alien to overstay their visa yet still retain current ID.

[Master of Ossus]

Sure - identify yourself but normal identity documents don't establish either citizenship or immigration status.

You do know what a "presumption" is, right?

Oh - you still have faith the police will be reasonable? How... quaint.

Yes, in some jurisdictions you can trust the police. In some you can't. In many cases which is which is dependent on your ethnicity.

If the police act "unreasonably" when the statute requires them to be reasonable, then you can sue them for infringing your rights. That's how the system works. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean that reliance on the judicial system to rectify potential problems with the executive branch is unconstitutional.

[Instant Sunrise]

With that in mind, it could be trivially easy for a formerly legal alien to overstay their visa yet still retain current ID.

For the record, this number is close to half of all estimated illegal immigrants. [1]

Also, the number of illegal immigrants has been decreasing.

So how is illegal immigration this huge problem again?

[MKSheppard]

Also, the number of illegal immigrants has been decreasing.

So how is illegal immigration this huge problem again?

Your own fucking article is two years out of date (2008); and even cites an increase in illegals:

Code: Select all

According to the center's estimates, 11.9 million undocumented immigrants were living in the United States as of March [2008]. There were 11.1 million in 2005 and 8.4 million in 2000, the group said.

Code: Select all

Pew estimates that there were 7 million illegal Mexican immigrants living in the United States in March [2008], up considerably from 4.8 million during the 2000 Census. Growth has leveled off since 2007.

[npisd]

How does this law not run afoul of self incrimination? Wouldn't status of legal residency be incriminitory in an investigation of legal residence? How does any enforcement of this law go beyond:

Police: Papers, Citizen!
Citizen: Here's my name, home address, and place of work. That should be enough to identify me under Hilder
Police: Ah, but what about proof of citizenship?
Citizen: One, two, three, four, FIFTH.

[Master of Ossus]

How does this law not run afoul of self incrimination? Wouldn't status of legal residency be incriminitory in an investigation of legal residence? How does any enforcement of this law go beyond:

Police: Papers, Citizen!
Citizen: Here's my name, home address, and place of work. That should be enough to identify me under Hilder
Police: Ah, but what about proof of citizenship?
Citizen: One, two, three, four, FIFTH.

That was resolved a long time ago. You can have statutes that (e.g.) require people involved in auto accidents to stop and identify themselves and trade insurance information because that information is "non-testimonial," just like fingerprints or DNA or a breathalyzer test. It's considered physical evidence, rather than self-incrimination, even if it ultimately could lead to convictions for serious crimes.

[MKSheppard]

It gets even better. Apparently Rhode Island is doing basically what AZ is doing -- except it's not by a law.

Oh no, the Governor of RI issued an executive order and the Police are following it.

-----------------------------------

link

Despite the failure of the Rhode Island legislature to pass an Arizona-like immigration bill, Rhode Island already has implemented the critical piece of the Arizona law, checking the immigration status of people stopped for traffic violations where there is a reasonable suspicion, and reporting all illegals to federal authorities for deportation.

As reported in The Boston Globe (h/t SoccerDad via TNR), R.I. troopers embrace firm immigration role:

Code: Select all

From Woonsocket to Westerly, the troopers patrolling the nation’s smallest state are reporting all illegal immigrants they encounter, even on routine stops such as speeding, to US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE.

“There are police chiefs throughout New England who hide from the issue . . . and I’m not hiding from it,’’ said Colonel Brendan P. Doherty, the towering commander of the Rhode Island State Police. “I would feel that I’m derelict in my duties to look the other way.’’

Rhode Island’s collaboration with federal immigration authorities is controversial; critics say the practice increases racial profiling and makes immigrants afraid to help police solve crimes.

This is too rich. Who would have thought that my home state, the state of Sheldon Whitehouse, is "racist" by the definition of the liberal wing of the Democratic Party?

I can't wait for Whitehouse to give a speech on the floor of the Senate associating the Rhode Island State Police with the "fanatics, the people running around in right-wing militia and Aryan support groups." After all, if racists oppose illegal immigration, then everyone who opposes illegal immigration must be a racist.

But put racial politics aside.

We have an issue of federal preemption, don't we? Isn't that why Obama has sued the State of Arizona?

Sure, Rhode Island doesn't impose its own penalties, but doesn't Rhode Island's enforcement of federal immigration laws complicate and overburden federal enforcement?

Step up to the plate, Messrs. Obama and Holder, sue Rhode Island. Because we don't have enough problems.

-----------------------------------