Terminator vs Predator

[CSJM]

Just to be sure : with all the sensors on their helmet wouldn't the Predator be able to :
1- know that predators are not human?
2- spot weaknesses (like joints or tube)?

Because I think they are still smart enough to use any of the tactics shown in the 4 movies. It's not like they have to kill their prey only with their own weapons. They just have to kill it one way or another.

Note : in Predator 1, the alien hunter fought already against the Terminator and lost. So why are we having that discussion?

/agrees on the note.

However, despite the Governator already killing a Predator in one instance, we still need to determine whether it'd work out the same with the other side of his personality.

As for your points, I think that for all the Predator can see and sense, the T-800 is a human. It was specifically made to fool humans into thinking it's a human. Nothing in its appearance or heat signature is likely to immediately give away its mechanical nature.

[Temujin]

Regarding the Predator Plasma Cannon, in AVP1 didn't it essentially only do surface damage when the Predator was blasting the Aliens and a few shots missed and hit the walls? I didn't see AVP2 and can't remember any relevant scenes from Predator 2 where the plasma bolts strike walls or other hard structural material.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The Uzi is a 9x19 mm submachine gun with a 400 mm barrel.

Ghetto edit: actually it's just 260 mm. I should have realized it sounded way too long right away; you shouldn't trust the first reference you look up. Doesn't change the argument, however.

[Shroom Man 777]

Predator plasma weapons are unable to penetrate Arnold's M16 in the first Predator movie, giving him only superficial injuries when the plasma bolt struck the rifle instead of his arm. Weapon settings may be variable, however.

Also Predator IR is so shitty that mud can obscure it.

[PREDATOR490]

Los angeles: 1984

A T-800 arrives in Los Angeles to kill Sarah Connor, picking clothes and weapons, but is unaware it is being watched by another hunter: a yuatja hunter, who comes across the terminator and selects it as his new target.

Predator comes across unknown target and is likely to STALK the target (Like P2 did with the cop). Afterall, they are here for a HUNT and as such want SPORT.
The only way the Terminator is going to attract the attention of a Predator is:

A) The Predator detects it is a machine
B) The Predator comes across the Terminator in some carnage

In the case of B, the most likely situation would be the Terminator launching that attack on the Police Station.
In which, case we have Predator + Terminator + Random cops. The Terminator will rampage away and then find itself jumped by the Predator somewhere along the line.

A smart Predator will notice Mr. T is not going down to conventional firepower which leads to A. After that...

I dont like Terminator chances unless it manages to detect the Predator otherwise it will be caught in a surprise attack at any point the Predator feels like it.

Terminator turns a corner... *woosh* head falls off as Mr. Disc slams through the neck ?
Terminator is busy killing cops... *Thump* spear right through the chest ?
Predator is busy mauling the shit out of something... Terminator just walks away because it's mission is to find Sarah Connor. Not fuck around with aliens.

Unfortunately for it, the yuatja camouflage is useless against the infrared sensors on the T-800, and the instead of the assassination the predator intended, he ends up in a duel.

Predator camoflage is not useless against Terminators. Terminators have to switch to those sensors for it to become active so unless the T runs around with Infared on 100% of the time the camo tech still works. Depending on the environment, running around with it on could be impractical.

The terminator has all his weapons from the first film, while the predator has all the weapons he used in the second film. (Same predator)

I'm going with Predator.

The Terminator is a machine designed to go after someone else with relentless determination thus unless the Predator compromises that objective the T will ignore it.
If the Predator attacks the T, fair enough the T will defend itself but if the Predator runs off when the fight goes badly. I dont see Mr. T chasing down the Predator rather than simply go back to it's mission of Termination.

If it goes hand to hand - Terminator wins for brute strength. No question.

That said, Predators are hunters and it seems rather obvious from the movies they like to fuck around with the hunt. In that regard, if the Predator fucks around. The Terminator is going to kill the Predator.
However, if the Predator decides to say 'fuck it' and go straight to 'kill' mode. I dont see Terminator surviving and there is no gurantee the Predator will acknowledge the Terminator as a valid 'target' for a hunt. They could consider machines a valid target for a hunt and want to take a trophy but I'm guessing from the established lore they only go after 'live' game. As such, the Terminator either gets ignored or simply slagged to shit by a group of Predators if need be. I.E The Ending of Predator 2.

[CSJM]

The Terminator, from T2, survived quite a bit of damage from T1000's attacks. Including being impaled through the chest. And in T3, a 850 model (technically) survived a near-decapitation.

In the event the confrontation occurs somewhere during the police station shootout, the Terminator will consider the Predator as a possible obstacle to its mission, like the rest of the people around him. I don't think a Predator, having little expertise with humanlike machines, will consider the Terminator to be one - he would likely assume it's an individual in some sort of armor. When he tries to dispatch the Terminator like he would a human - most likely through a surprise melee attack, to gauge its strength in combat - he may be in for a few unpleasant surprises, like the amount of damage a T-800 can soak and the strength it posesses. So, unless the Predator opts for a ranged kill, he will rather quickly lose. If a ranged attack fails to kill the Terminator quickly, it will likely start pursuing the Predator, because he would become a significant threat to the mission. If that happens and the duel resolves in a shootout, there are equal chances of the Predator winning, and a draw by the Predator's glory device, barring a lucky headshot on the Terminator's part.

[Bilbo]

In that same movie we also see 5.56mm rounds penetrate right through their skulls at the start (albeit an already-dead termie, but it has an in-tact skull), and 7.62mm rounds killing active terminators.

We have no idea at all what kind of ammunition is being used. One would assume that standard ammo is not being used and instead some sort of penetrating round that would zip right through a person with little tissue damage would work well against Terminators. A round that is very small and designed to punch through the outer armor would probably then be stopped by the armor on the backside and bounce around inside the Terminator.

So while we know what kind of rifle and the probable size of the round we cannot really make any determination. Also do we see any of this effectiveness on the T-800 in the end or on the inferior models we see throughout the movie?

[Marcus Aurelius]

I don't think a Predator, having little expertise with humanlike machines, will consider the Terminator to be one - he would likely assume it's an individual in some sort of armor. When he tries to dispatch the Terminator like he would a human - most likely through a surprise melee attack, to gauge its strength in combat - he may be in for a few unpleasant surprises, like the amount of damage a T-800 can soak and the strength it posesses.

In Predator 2 we saw that the Predator visor is actually a pretty sophisticated sensor device, for example able to tell if a woman is in the early stages of pregnancy. Based on that I would say that the Predator can probably detect that the Terminator is not man, especially if the Predator has any reason to suspect that he might not be a normal human. Witnessing the Terminator wipe out couple of dozen armed men without too much difficulty would certainly provide enough reason to suspect that.

[Bilbo]

A) The Predator detects it is a machine

How? In Terminator 1 it is stated that they use dogs which suggests that a T800 is perfectly human from a thermal point of view and is no longer vulnerable to magnetic mines the way Marcus was.

The Predator from the first movie was willing to stalk the spec forces guy for quite a while and that Predator may watch long enough to wonder what the fuck kind of human this is.

The Predator from the second movie jumped right in at every chance to kill someone except when he was teasing Harrington. That Predator probably goes down hard when he jumps in close tries the stabby stabby routine and bounces off the chest of the Terminator. The only time we see Terminators stabbed and impaled is by other Terminators who have precise schematics and know where the honey spot is.

Predators from AVP1 all go down hard. These are half trained kids, some of which are dumb enough to actually relish charging into combat with acid blooded melee only foes (the aliens),

Lone Wold Predator from AVP2 has a better chance. He has some more unique gear like the laser traps and whatever explosive punch item he used to get out of the sewers and one expects a hell of a lot more experience.

[Bilbo]

I don't think a Predator, having little expertise with humanlike machines, will consider the Terminator to be one - he would likely assume it's an individual in some sort of armor. When he tries to dispatch the Terminator like he would a human - most likely through a surprise melee attack, to gauge its strength in combat - he may be in for a few unpleasant surprises, like the amount of damage a T-800 can soak and the strength it posesses.

In Predator 2 we saw that the Predator visor is actually a pretty sophisticated sensor device, for example able to tell if a woman is in the early stages of pregnancy. Based on that I would say that the Predator can probably detect that the Terminator is not man, especially if the Predator has any reason to suspect that he might not be a normal human. Witnessing the Terminator wipe out couple of dozen armed men without too much difficulty would certainly provide enough reason to suspect that.

It was a very close ranged scan that took a few moments. Also the Predator from that movie watched Harrington take out a large number of Scorpio gang members who had been fucking over the cops for a long time, very quickly and with little effort. Did the Predator scan Harrington? No, he did not. He just zoomed in on him and thoght "ohhh look a fun target that isnt too easy".

I am not saying that the Predator scans wont work but Predators dont seem that inclined to use them. No scan of Harrington, no scan of Arnold when he survived a plasma blast that took the entire chest off of Ventura.

The girl he scanned was the first female we see in a combat situation with a Predator that I remember. For all we know Predator code requires all females to be scanned before they can be killed.

[CSJM]

Exactly - if anything, watching the Terminator plow through the police station will only make the Predator more eager to test his strength against this new enemy. It may not even matter whether or not the actual nature of the Terminator becomes known to him, he may try to go into melee regardless, just because it's good sport.

[Temujin]

A) The Predator detects it is a machine

How? In Terminator 1 it is stated that they use dogs which suggests that a T800 is perfectly human from a thermal point of view and is no longer vulnerable to magnetic mines the way Marcus was.

It would make sense that Skynet would ensure its infiltrators are up to the task of defeating all viable detection methods as best they can, or at least spoofing them long enough. Granted, the Predator does have alien technology, but it might not rely on a more sensitive scan until it feels that something is amiss. By then it may be too late.

The Predator from the first movie was willing to stalk the spec forces guy for quite a while and that Predator may watch long enough to wonder what the fuck kind of human this is.

The Predator from the second movie jumped right in at every chance to kill someone except when he was teasing Harrington. That Predator probably goes down hard when he jumps in close tries the stabby stabby routine and bounces off the chest of the Terminator.

Yeah, that predator was supposed to be a younger, and one might argue a more macho one. He seemed to rely a lot more on direct melee attacks than his predecessor from the first movie.

The only time we see Terminators stabbed and impaled is by other Terminators who have precise schematics and know where the honey spot is.

Not to mention greater strength.

[Shroom Man 777]

Terminator turns a corner... *woosh* head falls off as Mr. Disc slams through the neck ?
Terminator is busy killing cops... *Thump* spear right through the chest ?
Predator is busy mauling the shit out of something... Terminator just walks away because it's mission is to find Sarah Connor. Not fuck around with aliens.

It took the very strong T-1000 multiple tries, at close range, and with detailed schematic files, to penetrate the T-800 with a stick. Maybe the T-800 sees the Predator raising its stupid frisbee or stick, and before the Pred can throw it the Terminator just shoots the Yautja in its honorable warrior-hunter cock?

Predator camoflage is not useless against Terminators. Terminators have to switch to those sensors for it to become active so unless the T runs around with Infared on 100% of the time the camo tech still works. Depending on the environment, running around with it on could be impractical.

Wrong. Only Predators have sensors so shitty that they can't even detect a naked man covered in mud or a bunch of ridiculous MIB in stupid spacesuits in a meat locker full of dead meat, and need to manually switch vision modes to detect xenomorphs/aliens (while simultaneously making them unable to detect humans).

We've never seen Terminators bother with such a painstakingly manual shitty sensor system.

I'm going with Predator.

The Terminator is a machine designed to go after someone else with relentless determination thus unless the Predator compromises that objective the T will ignore it.
If the Predator attacks the T, fair enough the T will defend itself but if the Predator runs off when the fight goes badly. I dont see Mr. T chasing down the Predator rather than simply go back to it's mission of Termination.

Unless the Terminator interprets the Predator as a significant threat that might compromise its mission, and thus terminates the Predator first? For all we know, the Terminator might think the Predator is something the Resistance sent - constituting a threat and shit that needs to be killed? The Terminator might even think that the Predator is protecting Sarah Connor!

Then using its awesome roboto logic, the Terminator might follow the Predator to its hideout/ship thinking that Sarah Connor is hiding there!

If it goes hand to hand - Terminator wins for brute strength. No question.

That said, Predators are hunters and it seems rather obvious from the movies they like to fuck around with the hunt. In that regard, if the Predator fucks around. The Terminator is going to kill the Predator.
However, if the Predator decides to say 'fuck it' and go straight to 'kill' mode. I dont see Terminator surviving and there is no gurantee the Predator will acknowledge the Terminator as a valid 'target' for a hunt. They could consider machines a valid target for a hunt and want to take a trophy but I'm guessing from the established lore they only go after 'live' game. As such, the Terminator either gets ignored or simply slagged to shit by a group of Predators if need be. I.E The Ending of Predator 2.

Maybe the other Predators, in great chest-beating honorable warrior-hunterification, sees the great feats of the Terminator and in awe and honor decide to give him some centuries-old musket flintlock belonging to some Conquistador as Uncle Bob's exploits far outstrip the warrior hunter prowess of Danny Glover! Then the Terminator loads the musket up, and the Predator chief says "hey you can't do that!" and the Terminator says "Wrong!", shoots the Predators in their honorable warrior-hunter pussy faces, and acquires their 12 watt phased plasma rifles.

[adam_grif]

I submit:



Anything workable from that?

[ANGELUS]

I am not saying that the Predator scans wont work but Predators dont seem that inclined to use them. No scan of Harrington, no scan of Arnold when he survived a plasma blast that took the entire chest off of Ventura.

I think that depends on the predator... some of them might like to scan first some others might not... The one from AVP1 scanned Wayland instead of just killing him, and detected he had cancer and left him alone (ok, and later killed him when Wayland set it on fire).

[Shroom Man 777]

@ adam_grif: Unfortunately the OP states that the Pred's coming with the kit from Predator 2, not super-awesome dual plasma cannons from AVP2.

[adam_grif]

@ adam_grif: Unfortunately the OP states that the Pred's coming with the kit from Predator 2, not super-awesome dual plasma cannons from AVP2.

It shows that plasma casters are certainly capable of doing more damage than "can't penetrate an M16". They can blow people's heads clean off, leaving nothing but a bit of blood to fly away.

So, variable yield seems probable. In AvP2 they were in gloves-coming-off mode thanks to their goal of quarantining the aliens instead of some bizarro honor hunting ritual. They certainly won't hold back against a cyborg superman, yeah?

[Shroom Man 777]

Actually, if you look closely, the plasma bolts just blow half the heads away, the remaining halves still... remain. Without much thermal damage, even! If we want to get really pedantic about it, after the plasma hits their faces, it doesn't even penetrate or do anything to anything behind the heads, after hitting the heads the plasma sort of... just stops there with the bloody explosions.

If we trawl around the internet looking for horrible pictures, I think people who got their heads shot off by a shotgun end up looking just like those guys in that AVP2 clip. Chunks of the head off. So it's not really an example of super-damage.

Ah shit, why did I have to go out and look for shotgun wounds to the head in the internet.

[Temujin]

So, variable yield seems probable. In AvP2 they were in gloves-coming-off mode thanks to their goal of quarantining the aliens instead of some bizarro honor hunting ritual. They certainly won't hold back against a cyborg superman, yeah?

It certainly does seem to have a variable yield. the first shot that hit Blane seemed to just graze and injure him, but he second shot blew a hole threw his chest. The bolt size seems to vary from small (concentrated?) to large (diffuse?).

We also have to take into account that not all plasma cannons, just like all firearms, are going to be equal in their capabilities and effects. The heads seem to be clearly blown by the dual cannon, but that doesn't seem out of line with what the first one did to Blane's torso.

[adam_grif]

Actually, if you look closely, the plasma bolts just blow half the heads away, the remaining halves still... remain. Without much thermal damage, even! If we want to get really pedantic about it, after the plasma hits their faces, it doesn't even penetrate or do anything to anything behind the heads, after hitting the heads the plasma sort of... just stops there with the bloody explosions.

If we trawl around the internet looking for horrible pictures, I think people who got their heads shot off by a shotgun end up looking just like those guys in that AVP2 clip. Chunks of the head off. So it's not really an example of super-damage.

Ah shit, why did I have to go out and look for shotgun wounds to the head in the internet.

Upon closer examination you're semi-right. There is indeed part of the right dude's head left, but nothing above the jaw is there except blood. Everything the bolt struck on both targets fucking exploded, or evaporated, or something. It clearly wasn't a direct hit on the left guy, so he got to keep half his face.

That doesn't really speak wonders of the accuracy of the system though

Also,
Spoiler

REDACTED BY THE NECRON

[Shroom Man 777]

Only portions of the head were taken off. If you look closely, the man on the left has most of his head still intact though a big portion of it is gone. The one on the right has less of his head left. There are ugly pictures of suicides and injuries by gun (shotgun or otherwise) that kinda have similar results.

EDIT:

Havok, yeah. I got uglier pictures. Here's a bunch of em.

[Link redacted by NecronLord]

[Temujin]

I'm going with Predator.

The Terminator is a machine designed to go after someone else with relentless determination thus unless the Predator compromises that objective the T will ignore it.
If the Predator attacks the T, fair enough the T will defend itself but if the Predator runs off when the fight goes badly. I dont see Mr. T chasing down the Predator rather than simply go back to it's mission of Termination.

Unless the Terminator interprets the Predator as a significant threat that might compromise its mission, and thus terminates the Predator first? For all we know, the Terminator might think the Predator is something the Resistance sent - constituting a threat and shit that needs to be killed? The Terminator might even think that the Predator is protecting Sarah Connor!

Terminators certainly seem to dispose of anyone who gets in the way of their mission. Probably why they're called terminators.

Unless the predator high tails it out of there to the point that the terminator can't follow, I think the terminator is going to try and put down the immediate threat; and realizing it's probably not human, it isn't gonna fuck around.

[CSJM]

I don't remember already, but I think even the AvP games had variable yield for the plasmacaster. Even if suppose that it could be charged sufficiently to blow a human in half, it I doubt it'll do more than stun and momentarily disable a T-800, since the shot would contact the artificial tissue first, creating a blast of steam that would reduce the damage actually done to the robot's frame.

[Shroom Man 777]

When it realizes the damn thing is tossing around plasma weapons, the gloves come off. The Terminators only move the way they do in the films because they know that few weapons in the modern era can damage them. In that future war scene when a plasma-armed Terminator was storming the Resistance base, the damn thing was moving pretty damn fast and killed a whole load of Resistance fighters pretty damn fucking fast, even if everyone was totting around plasma weapons.

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't remember already, but I think even the AvP games had variable yield for the plasmacaster. Even if suppose that it could be charged sufficiently to blow a human in half, it I doubt it'll do more than stun and momentarily disable a T-800, since the shot would contact the artificial tissue first, creating a blast of steam that would reduce the damage actually done to the robot's frame.

Or it could blow the T-800 in half, just like Kyle Reese's home made pipe bomb.

But then again, the Pred in the first movie also ended up GTFO when it realized that it got spotted, and ended up having to patch itself up after a flesh wound. When the element of surprise was gone and people started throwing bullets at its direction, the Predator was quick to hightail it - for good reason.