Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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(Reuters) - Stun gun-maker Taser International Inc. told a judge on Monday its rights were violated by a Canadian inquiry that recommended police restrict the weapon's use because of safety concerns.

The inquiry concluded that the weapons, which send a disabling jolt of up to 50,000 volts of electricity, pose a risk to the human heart. But Taser International said those findings ignored its own evidence that the weapons have not killed anyone.

"Those findings are not supported by the evidence that was known to the commissioner and was provided to him in advance," Taser's attorney, David Neave, told British Columbia Supreme Court Judge Robert Sewell.

Taser International has asked the court to quash the findings of the inquiry's commissioner, Thomas Braidwood, and argues its rights were violated by not being allowed to respond to the report before it was released publicly last year.

British Columbia launched the Braidwood inquiry after the death of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski in a confrontation with police at Vancouver International Airport in 2007.

Police shot Dziekanski six times with the gun, although the exact cause of his death has never been determined.

A bystander's video of the incident was viewed worldwide, and the officers - whose conduct was sharply criticized by Braidwood in a separate report last month - are under criminal investigation.

Braidwood recommended that police restrict how and when they use Tasers until more safety studies could be carried out. But the retired judge but did not call for a moratorium on their use and said the Taser was a welcome alternative to traditional firearms.

Taser International says the report has hurt its potential sales. The Arizona company markets the guns, also known as conducted energy weapons, largely to law enforcement agencies, but they are also sold to the general public in the United States.

The judge has already dismissed a portion of Taser's lawsuit, ruling that its allegations the inquiry's top staff were biased and dishonest were "unnecessary, scandalous and vexatious."

Government lawyers are expected to begin their arguments in defense of the inquiry on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Taser's critics have questioned the validity of its studies that the weapon is safe. The 2009 Braidwood report said there 25 deaths in Canada in incidents in which Tasers were used, and more than 300 in the United States.
Study says there's measurable risk(Well, jolting the heart is pretty dangerous, can't deny that), Taser says their own private tests disagree(Keep in mind, their monetary incentive is to keep everyone thinking Tasers are perfectly safe).

It's legal argument is, apparently, an American company has a right to respond to any study conducted in another country, and if it doesn't, it can quash the study. This, frankly, holds as much water as a day in the arizona desert.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Kanastrous »

Seems to me that so long as tasers are safer than firearms - which I doubt many people seriously dispute - their business ought to be okay...
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Not necessarily.

If it becomes accepted that a taser is a weapon with, say, a 1% chance of killing someone (or 0.1, or whatever) then there's going to be at least some tendency to regulate their use. And a lot more scrutiny will be placed on use of tasers by law enforcement. If tasers were ideal sci-fi stun guns, police would be justified in using them under almost any circumstances where they face more than the slightest resistance. But if tasers are (for instance) lethal 0.1% of the time, then the public won't be so happy about police being liberal in their application.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Kanastrous »

Yes. 'Less lethal' seems to cover the concept well enough. I mean, really, does anyone believe that being subjected to an electrical shock like that could be guaranteed harmless, under any circumstances?
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Kanastrous wrote:Yes. 'Less lethal' seems to cover the concept well enough. I mean, really, does anyone believe that being subjected to an electrical shock like that could be guaranteed harmless, under any circumstances?
Don't you remember that conservative talking head (I forget his name) who claimed that waterboarding couldn't be that bad, until he volunteered to have it done on himself? People are incredibly stupid, and incredibly bad at imagining danger they haven't experienced.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Ryan Thunder »

I just love how they never mention the utterly miniscule amperage that's actually delivered by the tazer and instead go for the irrelevant 50 kV.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ryan Thunder wrote:I just love how they never mention the utterly miniscule amperage that's actually delivered by the tazer and instead go for the irrelevant 50 kV.
What, a few tenths of a milliamp? How do you know that's miniscule under the circumstances?
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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Ryan Thunder wrote:I just love how they never mention the utterly miniscule amperage that's actually delivered by the tazer and instead go for the irrelevant 50 kV.
While I'm not a expert on the specific subject of the effects of electrical trauma on the cardiovascular system, I know something about the relevant physiology. The subject is relatively complex, but the main points are that the electric potentials used in signal trasduction in our body are extremely minor and that the system, even in multiple-backup setups like cardiac conduction, isn't very fault tolerant (maybe because during our evolutive history the change of electrical discharge-based injuries was minor at best); oh, and most of your electrical resistence is actually in your skin (this makes voltage very relevant). It's better than a bullet, but it's rather dangerous; quoting the relatively low intensity of the discharge is disingenuous.
Simon_Jester wrote:What, a few tenths of a milliamp? How do you know that's miniscule under the circumstances?
It isn't, he's wrong and probably just making excuses for having irrational, automatic support for any kind of violent act committed under the guise of authority. There isn't a very wide gulf between being fully incapacitated by a electrical current and a lethal cardiac arrest, it wouldn't work if it wasn't dangerous.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Kanastrous »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:Yes. 'Less lethal' seems to cover the concept well enough. I mean, really, does anyone believe that being subjected to an electrical shock like that could be guaranteed harmless, under any circumstances?
Don't you remember that conservative talking head (I forget his name) who claimed that waterboarding couldn't be that bad, until he volunteered to have it done on himself? People are incredibly stupid, and incredibly bad at imagining danger they haven't experienced.
Well...when I worked for B&B group, we sold tasers on the law-enforcement end. One day at lunch a few of us went to one of the store rooms and tried out two of them (which were out-of-packaging and to be returned to the mfgr anyway).

Stupid? For sure. But while I haven't been shot with a service pistol and therefore can't make a truly informed comparison, I'd still rather get the taser.

YMMV.

And, I believe the conservative talking (and spluttering) head you have in mind was Christopher Hitchens.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Andrew_Fireborn »

We know the problem isn't the stun guns themselves. They do what they're designed to do, and do it as well as can be expected.

The problem is twitchy cops who haven't been properly briefed, trained, whatever on how these weapons affect their targets.

I'm sure we've all seen at least one example, story or video, of an officer tasering someone, ordering them to do something while still clearly under the debilitating effects of the first discharge, and then proceeding to apply additional shocks for "resisting" the officer.

However, it is always hilarious when something like this happens...

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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Magis »

Melchior wrote:It isn't, he's wrong and probably just making excuses for having irrational, automatic support for any kind of violent act committed under the guise of authority.
You mean just like you're probably making excuses for having irrational, automatic opposition against any kind of violent act committed under the guise of authority? Neither of you seem to have any particularly good estimation of the current flowing during the taser shock, but his point was that the media's use of the "50kV" measurement instead of "a few milliamps" (or whatever it is) is to make the story more dramatic to an audience that generally doesn't have the slightest idea of what volts and amps are, let alone how they affect the body.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Kanastrous wrote:
And, I believe the conservative talking (and spluttering) head you have in mind was Christopher Hitchens.
It was the American radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller. And he immediately regretted that decision to man up and fully turned around his position on the matter by denouncing it as extreme.

Tangentially, Hitchens may have cancer of the throat, making spluttering something a little less likely if bad.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Kanastrous »

Looks like one saw the other try it and had to get in on the fun:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... hens200808
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:I just love how they never mention the utterly miniscule amperage that's actually delivered by the tazer and instead go for the irrelevant 50 kV.
What, a few tenths of a milliamp? How do you know that's miniscule under the circumstances?
The meaningless average is 3 milliamps. It's meaningless because that's for a steady electrical current. The Taser (as they're so proud of mentioning), uses "short pulses," not a continuous current. Using the Root Mean Square method of calculating a varying amperage, it's 150 to 160 milliamps. The "safe" level is somewhere around 30 milliamps.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by SirNitram »

The Dark wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:I just love how they never mention the utterly miniscule amperage that's actually delivered by the tazer and instead go for the irrelevant 50 kV.
What, a few tenths of a milliamp? How do you know that's miniscule under the circumstances?
The meaningless average is 3 milliamps. It's meaningless because that's for a steady electrical current. The Taser (as they're so proud of mentioning), uses "short pulses," not a continuous current. Using the Root Mean Square method of calculating a varying amperage, it's 150 to 160 milliamps. The "safe" level is somewhere around 30 milliamps.

Coupled with the minority of cops who use this not as a step before guns, but to make their jobs easier, and you have seizures as social control.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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Magis wrote:You mean just like you're probably making excuses for having irrational, automatic opposition against any kind of violent act committed under the guise of authority?
Are you finally having a erection, now?
Magis wrote:Neither of you seem to have any particularly good estimation of the current flowing during the taser shock
Except that, oops, I didn't quote a figure. Just to remind you of how wrong you're are, a typical discharge starts with a very brief pulse (around 3ms), followed by longer pulses (around 100ms) at a rythm of about 20 pulses per second; actual peak amperage (peak amperage is the relevant measurement because of the pulsed delivery) varies between models, but on one of the most commonly used ones is 3A. If you have access to a good scientific library (or your university offers a suitable proxy for online subscription access to scientific journals, etc.) you too can use Pubmed to check the rathar extensive literature on the subject.
Magis wrote:but his point was that the media's use of the "50kV" measurement instead of "a few milliamps" (or whatever it is) is to make the story more dramatic to an audience that generally doesn't have the slightest idea of what volts and amps are, let alone how they affect the body.
It's obviously like the fact that everything is an assault rifle for journalists, but it's true that the high voltage is what makes it relatively dangerous, because the minimum potentially lethal amperage is extremely low (so low that every pratical application of electricity would be able to kill someone, if it wasn't for low voltage).
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

SirNitram wrote: Coupled with the minority of cops who use this not as a step before guns, but to make their jobs easier, and you have seizures as social control.
It's interesting that this seems to be the general theme of understanding regarding the purpose of the taser, and it's probably due to Taser International propaganda. However, under current law enforcement training if the situation is a deadly force situation the taser only provides another option for certain situations, however, deadly force will still be in the ready in case it fails.

No officer is going to close the distance necessary to use a taser on a firearm wielding subject. The only time I can think of a taser being a good substitute for deadly force is when the threat is from an unarmed person who poses a deadly threat due to psychological, or physical (drugs, size vs officer) factors.

Anyway, the point is that tasers usually make the job of officers safer and the risk to the subject safer. (Usually) Which means they can be deployed as a step before guns in unique deadly force situations, but they're most practical in use against violent resisting subjects who only pose a risk of bodily injury to officers, and/or others.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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The Dark wrote:The meaningless average is 3 milliamps. It's meaningless because that's for a steady electrical current. The Taser (as they're so proud of mentioning), uses "short pulses," not a continuous current. Using the Root Mean Square method of calculating a varying amperage, it's 150 to 160 milliamps. The "safe" level is somewhere around 30 milliamps.
Damn. Except that it can't be that, because currents between 100 and 200mA are lethal. Are you sure you did the math right?

Hell some sources even suggest that values as low as 60mA would be lethal.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
The Dark wrote:The meaningless average is 3 milliamps. It's meaningless because that's for a steady electrical current. The Taser (as they're so proud of mentioning), uses "short pulses," not a continuous current. Using the Root Mean Square method of calculating a varying amperage, it's 150 to 160 milliamps. The "safe" level is somewhere around 30 milliamps.
Damn. Except that it can't be that, because currents between 100 and 200mA are lethal. Are you sure you did the math right?

Hell some sources even suggest that values as low as 60mA would be lethal.
Potentially lethal (and from the literature that I checked it's higher than 160 mA). Point of application, duration, even environmental conditions are relevant variables.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

The Dark wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:I just love how they never mention the utterly miniscule amperage that's actually delivered by the tazer and instead go for the irrelevant 50 kV.
What, a few tenths of a milliamp? How do you know that's miniscule under the circumstances?
The meaningless average is 3 milliamps. It's meaningless because that's for a steady electrical current. The Taser (as they're so proud of mentioning), uses "short pulses," not a continuous current. Using the Root Mean Square method of calculating a varying amperage, it's 150 to 160 milliamps. The "safe" level is somewhere around 30 milliamps.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you're saying that the Taser delivers 150 to 160 mA to the target? If I'm not misunderstanding you then do you have the material to support this claim?
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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Melchior wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:
The Dark wrote:The meaningless average is 3 milliamps. It's meaningless because that's for a steady electrical current. The Taser (as they're so proud of mentioning), uses "short pulses," not a continuous current. Using the Root Mean Square method of calculating a varying amperage, it's 150 to 160 milliamps. The "safe" level is somewhere around 30 milliamps.
Damn. Except that it can't be that, because currents between 100 and 200mA are lethal. Are you sure you did the math right?

Hell some sources even suggest that values as low as 60mA would be lethal.
Potentially lethal (and from the literature that I checked it's higher than 160 mA). Point of application, duration, even environmental conditions are relevant variables.
Ah.

Actually, where'd you get that it's an average?
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Damn. Except that it can't be that, because currents between 100 and 200mA are lethal. Are you sure you did the math right?

Hell some sources even suggest that values as low as 60mA would be lethal.
Going by what Dark is saying, the idea is that the taser design would be gambling on is that they can pulse a lethal current through your body for a really short time, and thus not send you into cardiac arrest because the heart doesn't have time to crap out in response to the taser before the end of the pulse.

Sometimes, they lose the gamble and kill the target.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Coupled with the minority of cops who use this not as a step before guns, but to make their jobs easier, and you have seizures as social control.
It's interesting that this seems to be the general theme of understanding regarding the purpose of the taser, and it's probably due to Taser International propaganda. However, under current law enforcement training if the situation is a deadly force situation the taser only provides another option for certain situations, however, deadly force will still be in the ready in case it fails.
The other reason this becomes the general theme of understanding regarding the purpose of the taser is, as Nitram says (more or less), the high-profile cases where tasers are used very heavily- especially when they're used repeatedly.

In the eyes of the public, there's a blurry line between "taser used to subdue violent subject who did not pose a lethal threat, but posed a risk of bodily harm" and "taser used to subdue subject who was being cranky when police officer has had a bad day."

That's not to say that the line is blurry within police doctrine, or within the normal practice of that doctrine... but the cases where the line isn't honored obscure the issue and make people look at the taser as an instrument of social control (as Nitram says).
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

Post by Melchior »

Ryan Thunder wrote: Ah.

Actually, where'd you get that it's an average?
I'm not sure that I understand the question. Given that the object delivers a series of short pulses over several seconds (and that obviously between pulses amperage is zero) and that a single number is given, it has to be some kind of average.
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Re: Taser Intl. Inc demands negative study quashed.

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Melchior wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote: Ah.

Actually, where'd you get that it's an average?
I'm not sure that I understand the question. Given that the object delivers a series of short pulses over several seconds (and that obviously between pulses amperage is zero) and that a single number is given, it has to be some kind of average.
To clarify, then; how do you know that 3mA is the average and not a peak value?
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